All fanfic writers are creatively bankrupt thieves.

Tyranomaster

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This is a bad take. Especially when you consider that every single piece of Fiction is in itself a fanfic of a previous work/current reality. TWD, Night of the Living Dead. And so forth, war movies are fan fiction of wars.

Fanfics gives you a predefined structure to write in.
That... isn't what the definition of a fanfiction is. As per Merriam-Webster

fan fiction, noun

: stories involving popular fictional characters that are written by fans and often posted on the Internet

As per my understanding:

Fanfiction is explicitly reusing an established fictional universe or characters to write a new story without the original author's permission, and while it is outside of fair use. Most of Lovecraft's works are now public domain, so you can't have Cthulhu mythos fanfiction, merely reimagining of it. As long as laws don't get passed making real life events able to have a copyright put on them, then those events also aren't fanfiction.

I believe originally, they were fan appreciative works usually. However, as Sailus points out, the only people writing them now-a-days are morally bankrupt people who are essentially corrupting existing works for profit. The author doesn't appreciate the original work, they're explicitly looking to corrupt someone else's characters into situations they wouldn't appear in, in order to collect money from others.

They're the moral equivalent of, at best, scalpers, and at worst, counterfeiters. If the story could stand on it's own merit, without having to piggyback of another story's success, why doesn't it? Why do they need to use the names and places in the other story? Because what they are telling you isn't actually reliant on it's own merit, it requires you to experience the emotions of the other story first, before twisting them. Very few fanfics can actually stand on their own merit without any understanding of the original work. The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head would be "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality", which does a great job of essentially rewriting the whole story in a way that if it was the only standalone Harry Potter work, it'd stand well.

There are plenty of authored works that are very similar to fanfiction, where it's clear that all the characters were inspired by a different series, but they wanted to try and make it stand alone, and most of the time they don't measure up, but occasionally they do surpass the original. To those authors, I can at least say they are trying to compete fairly.

To the other crooks who sit around and say "But uhhhhh, all works are derivative, therefor it doesn't matter if I just copy others", I have to say, it does matter. People who merely piggyback off other's success aren't contributors to society. In the best case scenario, where you aren't trying to take money, and are just making an appreciative work, you are corrupting the original authors vision of a space, and taking a portion of their audience with you. At worst, you're upcharging fans of the original work for cheap knock offs of the original product. I can hear the reply now, "But they want it, I'm just providing what they want.". Yeah, they want more of that work, and it's up to the original author to provide it to them. If their doctor gives them a small amount of Vicodin after a surgery, and they get addicted, you aren't helping them by "providing more to them for a fee", you're drug dealing.
 

Paul__Michaels

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I would like to nominate @SailusGebel for the Player-Haters of the Year Award 2024.

SailusGebel response:

chapel-kiss.gif
 

CharlesEBrown

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Now, if so, I have to say the Harold Shea stories started by L. Sprague DeKamp and continued by several others would probably have to be about the greatest fan fiction ever (well, unless you count the majority of religious texts - those may be even greater).
 

Rezcore

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That... isn't what the definition of a fanfiction is. As per Merriam-Webster

fan fiction, noun

: stories involving popular fictional characters that are written by fans and often posted on the Internet

As per my understanding:

Fanfiction is explicitly reusing an established fictional universe or characters to write a new story without the original author's permission, and while it is outside of fair use. Most of Lovecraft's works are now public domain, so you can't have Cthulhu mythos fanfiction, merely reimagining of it. As long as laws don't get passed making real life events able to have a copyright put on them, then those events also aren't fanfiction.

I believe originally, they were fan appreciative works usually. However, as Sailus points out, the only people writing them now-a-days are morally bankrupt people who are essentially corrupting existing works for profit. The author doesn't appreciate the original work, they're explicitly looking to corrupt someone else's characters into situations they wouldn't appear in, in order to collect money from others.

They're the moral equivalent of, at best, scalpers, and at worst, counterfeiters. If the story could stand on it's own merit, without having to piggyback of another story's success, why doesn't it? Why do they need to use the names and places in the other story? Because what they are telling you isn't actually reliant on it's own merit, it requires you to experience the emotions of the other story first, before twisting them. Very few fanfics can actually stand on their own merit without any understanding of the original work. The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head would be "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality", which does a great job of essentially rewriting the whole story in a way that if it was the only standalone Harry Potter work, it'd stand well.

There are plenty of authored works that are very similar to fanfiction, where it's clear that all the characters were inspired by a different series, but they wanted to try and make it stand alone, and most of the time they don't measure up, but occasionally they do surpass the original. To those authors, I can at least say they are trying to compete fairly.

To the other crooks who sit around and say "But uhhhhh, all works are derivative, therefor it doesn't matter if I just copy others", I have to say, it does matter. People who merely piggyback off other's success aren't contributors to society. In the best case scenario, where you aren't trying to take money, and are just making an appreciative work, you are corrupting the original authors vision of a space, and taking a portion of their audience with you. At worst, you're upcharging fans of the original work for cheap knock offs of the original product. I can hear the reply now, "But they want it, I'm just providing what they want.". Yeah, they want more of that work, and it's up to the original author to provide it to them. If their doctor gives them a small amount of Vicodin after a surgery, and they get addicted, you aren't helping them by "providing more to them for a fee", you're drug dealing.
50 shades was a fan fiction of Twilight, Game of Thrones a fan fiction of Lord of the Rings, Star Wars a fan fiction of Dune, Harry Potter a fan fiction of Star Wars. My entire point is there is no such critter as an original story. But go on with your false equivalency argument on drug dealers.

Again, Fan Fiction is a good thing, it helps authors grow and learn their literary voice. Steven Moffat, created the best bits of NuWho, started as a fan fiction writer. Never said anything of derivative works
 

CharlesEBrown

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To the other crooks who sit around and say "But uhhhhh, all works are derivative, therefor it doesn't matter if I just copy others", I have to say, it does matter. People who merely piggyback off other's success aren't contributors to society. In the best case scenario, where you aren't trying to take money, and are just making an appreciative work, you are corrupting the original authors vision of a space, and taking a portion of their audience with you. At worst, you're upcharging fans of the original work for cheap knock offs of the original product. I can hear the reply now, "But they want it, I'm just providing what they want.". Yeah, they want more of that work, and it's up to the original author to provide it to them. If their doctor gives them a small amount of Vicodin after a surgery, and they get addicted, you aren't helping them by "providing more to them for a fee", you're drug dealing.
Heh. Some of the worst examples of this have been in movies and television. There was a series on Sci-Fi called "Flash Gordon" - but the only thing it had in common with ... well, ANY previous example of Flash Gordon were character and planet names, and NOTHING else. Oh, and Flash was an athlete. That was it. It was a decent show on its own, but without the name, it would never have been greenlit. Unfortunately, WITH the name, it brought certain expectations that fans got upset when it failed to meet them, so the show crashed and burned as a result.

A similar fiasco was Fant4stic - the "Advanced Tea Substitute" of Fantastic Four movies. Not a bad inter-dimensional romp with super-powers but an absolutely awful Fantastic Four movie - again, it only got made because of the name, but that also, ultimately, killed it because it did not meet up with what fans expected FROM that name.
 

RepresentingWrath

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Now, if so, I have to say the Harold Shea stories started by L. Sprague DeKamp and continued by several others would probably have to be about the greatest fan fiction ever (well, unless you count the majority of religious texts - those may be even greater).
This one is for the sequel.
 

Tyranomaster

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50 shades was a fan fiction of Twilight, Game of Thrones a fan fiction of Lord of the Rings, Star Wars a fan fiction of Dune, Harry Potter a fan fiction of Star Wars. My entire point is there is no such critter as an original story. But go on with your false equivalency argument on drug dealers.

Again, Fan Fiction is a good thing, it helps authors grow and learn their literary voice. Steven Moffat, created the best bits of NuWho, started as a fan fiction writer. Never said anything of derivative works
You aren't asserting a truth. You're asserting a falsehood that you've tricked yourself to believe is true to justify your stance. Fanfiction isn't inspiration. Fanfiction explicitly calls out existing characters or worlds. Last time I checked, Harry Potter doesn't have any explicit characters or settings from Star Wars. Inspired stories aren't fanfiction, even if you think they are.

If I told you apples are citrus fruit, and just assert that all fruits are citrus, therefore, it's a citrus fruit, it doesn't make it the case. The word fanfiction has a strict definition, and it's one that isn't what you've described.

I too believe that inspired works are a good thing, and that people being inspired by something else are great. I'm not going to follow a false equivalency to say that means something else is good.

I also hate NuWho, and to say that, someone who wrote something I dislike says that it's good doesn't paint a good picture in my mind. I also think it handicaps authors from developing their own original literary voice. Instead, they end up as mediocre copycats of other authors. Our entire media landscape is filled to the brim with mediocre copycat writers who haven't found their own voice, and believe that by copying other authors, they'll somehow not end up as a worse version of the original over time.

You only get better at what you practice. If you practice copying other people, and writing situations for stuff that isn't your own original work, all you'll end up being good at is being a b list writer working as writing staff on your eighth reboot of a character from 1960, making a mediocre amount of money for a corporation, writing something you aren't particularly interested in. At least, if you're lucky that's where you'll end up long term. At worst, you'll end up like any number of numerous authors who got sued by a Japanese or American company for making money on a copyright, and have to pay all that money back, plus legal fees.
 

CharlesEBrown

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50 shades was a fan fiction of Twilight,
As confirmed by the author.
Game of Thrones a fan fiction of Lord of the Rings,
Never heard that before. Has more biblical and Cthulhu mythos elements than LotR ever did...
Star Wars a fan fiction of Dune,
It was more a synthesis of Dune, The Hidden Fortress, early science fiction serials (especially the second trilogy - even the physics was pure serial pablum), and every "chop-socky" movie Lucas ever saw.
Harry Potter a fan fiction of Star Wars.
Maybe the second book was to some degree, but more they drew from the same pool of archetypes and "Heroes Journey" tropes outlined in books like The Golden Bough. Now Eragon... that was a near copy of Star Wars but in a fantasy setting (as the author later admitted after his third book in the series - and the disappointing movie of the first book - came out)
Again, Fan Fiction is a good thing, it helps authors grow and learn their literary voice. Steven Moffat, created the best bits of NuWho, started as a fan fiction writer. Never said anything of derivative works
Moffat did some great stuff as a writer, then became showrunner and dropped to mediocrity. He did write one of the best episodes of the last season though (or, depending on your POV, one of the few good episodes)... But then the last person who handled multiple roles on Doctor Who well was probably Douglas Adams (script editor who wrote The Pirate Planet, City of Death, and at least one other serial I'm blanking on at the moment while editing the series).
And if you want to see where fan fiction can go wrong, look to the generally disliked series Chris Chibnall was showrunner and, frequently, writer for on that same show...
 
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Tyranomaster

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50 shades was a fan fiction of Twilight
As confirmed by the author.

The original version was fanfiction. The final drafts that got published aren't (for obvious legal reasons). By 2019, the book was largely forgotten (just compare things in google trends). Even then, it's legally distinct, and it eclipsed the original work (Twilight) in popularity. I don't care if your story starts as a concept related to another series, make it distinct before you push it out for money.
 

CharlesEBrown

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The original version was fanfiction. The final drafts that got published aren't (for obvious legal reasons). By 2019, the book was largely forgotten (just compare things in google trends). Even then, it's legally distinct, and it eclipsed the original work (Twilight) in popularity. I don't care if your story starts as a concept related to another series, make it distinct before you push it out for money.
I loved her description of 50 Shades though - she wanted to re-write Twilight, but with characters who were at least college age, and who used S&M instead of vampirism to gain power. And she did. And even re-wrote her own story with the characters gender-swapped, IIRC, which would kind of be fan fiction of fan fiction... :D
 
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