What happen after a government fails?

[Deleted member 54065]

Wait yeah, I never said there wasn't contact. They're isolated for most of their lives and then once a year or something they go to the rock to trade goods. If they never congregated there'd be no point in the thought exercise.

Well, there's still a semblance of governance there.

For one, these 'isolated' merchants would go to the rock to trade goods. The mere fact they go to that rock and not anywhere else once a year to trade means they are following a rule, and a rule's existence is a semblance of governance. So, there's still politics.

Where's the politics? These merchants don't go anywhere to trade, or they'll suffer from lack of sales. Thus, they follow the conditions set by the person they're trading with, and/or the rules of trade set by their predecessors, which imply these 'contemporary isolated' merchants give importance to these people. That alone is hierarchy, and governance.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Well, there's still a semblance of governance there.

For one, these 'isolated' merchants would go to the rock to trade goods. The mere fact they go to that rock and not anywhere else once a year to trade means they are following a rule, and a rule's existence is a semblance of governance. So, there's still politics.

Where's the politics? These merchants don't go anywhere to trade, or they'll suffer from lack of sales. Thus, they follow the conditions set by the person they're trading with, and/or the rules of trade set by their predecessors, which imply these 'contemporary isolated' merchants give importance to these people. That alone is hierarchy, and governance.

Alright, so what if they just all were completely isolated, and traded on the rare occasion they accidentally see each other? I guess that wouldn't be a government but that would just be because there's no people.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Alright, so what if they just all were completely isolated, and traded on the rare occasion they accidentally see each other? I guess that wouldn't be a government but that would just be because there's no people.

The mere fact that these guys don't kill each other for resources whenever they meet is indicative of governance, still.

I mean, they are governed by the philosophy of 'Live and Let Live'. If these guys are religious, we can also surmise they are governed by the laws of God.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

The mere fact that these guys don't kill each other for resources whenever they meet is indicative of governance, still.

I mean, they are governed by the philosophy of 'Live and Let Live'.

Nope. Hans, this is where I draw the line. Humans that don't know each other and may never even see each other just so happening to all independently be kind enough to not murder the first man they see isn't a government.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Alright, so what if they just all were completely isolated, and traded on the rare occasion they accidentally see each other? I guess that wouldn't be a government but that would just be because there's no people.

Also, let me add my gratitude for stimulating my brain cells. As I've said before, I have demonstration teaching tomorrow, and I need to 'spark' my brain to prepare. Thanks a lot for reading my ramblings.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Also, let me add my gratitude for stimulating my brain cells. As I've said before, I have demonstration teaching tomorrow, and I need to 'spark' my brain to prepare. Thanks a lot for reading my ramblings.

No problem.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Nope. Hans, this is where I draw the line. Humans that don't know each other and may never even see each other just so happening to all independently be kind enough to not murder the first man they see isn't a government.

Well, in any case, let's agree to disagree. Humans of the ancient times coalesced into tribes > kingdoms > empires > civilizations simply for the fact that they are social creatures who saw the value of cooperation in big groups rather than living alone.

What I mean is, in case something nuclear happens, and surviving humans end up isolated, there will still be politics and governance emerging from the chaos.

And I believe, the mere fact that they don't kill one another for resources is a semblance of governance. After all, governance's purpose is to put order in everything.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Well, in any case, let's agree to disagree. Humans of the ancient times coalesced into tribes > kingdoms > empires > civilizations simply for the fact that they are social creatures who saw the value of cooperation in big groups rather than living alone.

Hans, I agree with the basic historical fact that humans slowly build bigger forms of governments from tribes, the disagreement is that one of us thinks humans not even interacting with each other besides maybe one passing trade-off counts as a government.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Hans, I agree with the basic historical fact that humans slowly build bigger forms of governments from tribes, the disagreement is that one of us thinks humans not even interacting with each other besides maybe one passing trade-off counts as a government.

I'm talking of governance though, semblance of government, not an entire governmental bureaucracy.

A sliver of civilization, if you will.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

I'm talking of governance though, semblance of government, not an entire governmental bureaucracy.

Ok one final exercise, What if these guys were both atheists, and they did try to kill each other when they first met? Is there still a semblance of government?

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Ok one final exercise, What if these guys were both atheists, and they did try to kill each other when they first met? Is there still a semblance of government?

Again, if you'll look back to my previous replies, I said that the purpose of government, or the semblance/sliver of it, is to create order (and if I may add, so that everyone benefits from it). Is murdering each other--atheist or not--an indication of order?

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Again, if you'll look back to my previous replies, I said that the purpose of government, or the semblance/sliver of it, is to create order (and if I may add, so that everyone benefits from it). Is murdering each other an indication of order?

Epic. We got one. Humans congregating and it not being government. All you have to do to escape government is try to murder your peers. Who would've thought?

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Epic. We got one. Humans congregating and it not being government. All you have to do to escape government is try to murder your peers. Who would've thought?

Yep, that's the reason criminals ended up behind bars, separated from the general populace. In principle, they broke the law, the order, and they violated the government.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Yep, that's the reason criminals ended up behind bars, separated from the general populace. In principle, they broke the law, the order, and they violated the government.

but don't prisons also have a semblance of government? The guards bring order, the gangs show social interaction, and the inmates have hierarchy.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

All you have to do to escape government is try to murder your peers.

Also, isn't this the reason criminals try to escape outside the jurisdiction of their respective countries? To escape the government prosecution from their country of origin?

but don't prisons also have a semblance of government? The guards bring order, the gangs show social interaction, and the inmates have hierarchy.

They do have, but then again, refer to my previous reply, which was merged to this reply.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Also, isn't this the reason criminals escape outside the jurisdiction of their respective countries? To escape the government there?

Nah, just felt like going for a run.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Nah, just felt like going for a run.

Well, in any case, that's my opinion on the matter. Politics and governance can be seen almost everywhere, save maybe, for when humans devolve back into mindless creatures that they say we were.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Well, in any case, that's my opinion on the matter. Politics and governance can be seen almost everywhere, save maybe, for when humans devolve back into mindless creatures that they say we were.

I actually somewhat believe evolutionists when they say humans didn't have minds. Humans only became self-aware when a woman ate an apple.

Anyway, it was good discussing this, later.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I actually somewhat believe evolutionists when they say humans didn't have minds. Humans only became self-aware when a woman ate an apple.

Hello there, fellow creationist.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Hello there, fellow creationist.

Hello and goodbye.