Writing [Tutorial] So you want a Critique? [Warning: RANT]

[OokamiKasumi]

I see. Hours for one chapter is not the level of critique I am ever expecting from someone, nor do I expect you to critique my work personally.

That's a relief!

I think the article you've posted here is defining "critique" differently than I do.

That was the point of the essay.
-- To show what the word 'Critique' actually means to the writing industry.

"Critique" is colloquially used more like "give me your honest opinion, and does anything stand out as problematic?"

I noticed.
-- However Critique Does Not mean: "give me your honest opinion, and does anything stand out as problematic?" in the writing industry.

We're not using it like people in professional literary circles might.

And that is the Problem.
-- Especially for the pros that are trying to Help those that aren't professional yet.

Here on SH, far too many of the amateur writers are throwing around terms with no clear idea what they actually mean:

Examples I've noted:​

Premise​

Concept​

Critique​

There are quite a few on SH that do know what these terms mean, but so many more don't, and have made up their own definitions for these words.

All it'll do on this site is annoy those of us that Do know the definitions of these terms.

However, should these people take these made-up definitions into professional circles, the least that will happen is that they'll be laughed at by their editors and agents.

Some may even be given a red-pen lecture on why you don't play with industry definitions. Meaning that the editor will write the proper definitions on their manuscripts in red pen -- in addition to a rather firm and pointed phone call.

The next level is public embarrassment by the sharks of the industry: professional reviewers. These people post in magazines, on social media, podcasts, radio shows, and occasionally TV, and the most popular of them are Grade A Trolls.

In short, I am trying to help those that plan to take their writing into the professional stage, by letting them know what the real definition of that word means -- before it becomes a problem for them.



PS.
-- If anyone has noted any other industry definitions being abused, let me know, so I can add it to the list of tutorials to write.

 

[melchi]

In my view, direct criticism is rarely helpful as it mostly just tells you how someone else would write the story. There are some legitimate 'mistakes', but I find its more frequent that things people point to as mistakes- even things people claim are objective, solid fact- are more a matter of taste than anything.

What I personally adore in feedback (Other than help with blatant errors like spelling mistakes, redundancies, stilted/non-flowing writing, etc.) is hearing how people interpret the writing. If someone doesnt like a story beat then that doesnt really help you write that story beat if thats what you're doing, but if a person misinterprets the beat, that's actionable. The most important kind of input one can get from readers in my opinion is just to see what the story looks like, how it comes across, what emotions it inspires... Etc. because that gives you some idea of how your writing is actually communicating to the audience.

But I will say that one of the things that frustrates me to no end is people who give feedback or critique think they arent being listened to at all if the writer doesnt take everything they say as word of god immediately with no critical thought at all. I've gotten immense value from the feedback of people that I disagreed with almost everything they said before. Sometimes they have a very strong opinion but I personally felt a middle ground between what they suggested and what I wrote was best, othre times I just outright disagreed with most of what they had said but still found many useful nuggets. Other times they got the correct impression but thought it was unintentional for some reason (that one in particular happened a lot I dont know why) so I felt the need to make it more clear that it was an intentional aspect of the story.

Thats why I feel the need to comment here at all, tbh. Because I find the mindset of 'if the writer isn't doing everything the editor says then they just aren't listening' very frustrating. Very frequently 'mistakes' pointed out arent actually mistakes, 'objective' feedback is nothing but opinions, and 'critique' can often be little more than shallow attacks on works that people dislike for any number of reasons ranging from taste to morality. And yet despite that, feedback is still immensely useful, simply because it gives you an idea of how different people will respond to and understand the work.

As a personal example, I cut some 7,000 words from my first four chapters because I had multiple people criticize it for slow pacing, and I ended up reworking huge segments of dialogue and action based on input I received, even though I categorically disagreed with the majority of comments I received on it. And despite that I disagreed with so many of them, I still found the help immensely valuable because there was often some nugget or aspect of the input that I could work with even if the overall sentiment wasnt. And despite that I made such extensive changes based on feedback I received, I still can often find myself being told that I dont take criticism simply because I dont agree categorically with everything said without any pushback.

I feel that to be good at writing you need to be able to take feedback. But to be good at editting you also need to be able to take pushback on that editting/feedback because the author often has specific reasons for making choices they did. Trying to understand those decisions and figure out how to alleviate any problems found while maintaining that core spirit is integral to good editting, I feel.

You can always do a poll if you are getting conflicting feedback. Sometimes the people that are the loudest are not the majority of readers.

 

[DaelyxLenAuphydas]

You can always do a poll if you are getting conflicting feedback. Sometimes the people that are the loudest are not the majority of readers.

I have done that, and I found it immensely helpful! The most valuable feedback I have ever received tbh.

 

[Hans.Trondheim]

The very last time I asked for feedback, it missed the things I wanted checked, and instead, got more than what I bargained for. Yes, for an author, I have a fragile ego, and it was crushed. So, at the end, I told myself, "Yeah, fuck this; I'll just write for the sake of it." (Coz it's a good mental exercise)

 

[zephyrtrillian]

That's a relief!


That was the point of the essay.
-- To show what the word 'Critique' actually means to the writing industry.


I noticed.
-- However Critique Does Not mean: "give me your honest opinion, and does anything stand out as problematic?" in the writing industry.


And that is the Problem.
-- Especially for the pros that are trying to Help those that aren't professional yet.

Here on SH, far too many of the amateur writers are throwing around terms with no clear idea what they actually mean:

Examples I've noted:​

Premise​

Concept​

Critique​

There are quite a few on SH that do know what these terms mean, but so many more don't, and have made up their own definitions for these words.

All it'll do on this site is annoy those of us that Do know the definitions of these terms.

However, should these people take these made-up definitions into professional circles, the least that will happen is that they'll be laughed at by their editors and agents.

Some may even be given a red-pen lecture on why you don't play with industry definitions. Meaning that the editor will write the proper definitions on their manuscripts in red pen -- in addition to a rather firm and pointed phone call.

The next level is public embarrassment by the sharks of the industry: professional reviewers. These people post in magazines, on social media, podcasts, radio shows, and occasionally TV, and the most popular of them are Grade A Trolls.

In short, I am trying to help those that plan to take their writing into the professional stage, by letting them know what the real definition of that word means -- before it becomes a problem for them.



PS.
-- If anyone has noted any other industry definitions being abused, let me know, so I can add it to the list of tutorials to write.

I mean...look. I'm a nurse. People have a lot of ideas about physiology and medical terminology that I find annoying as well, but I tend to not lecture people on their inability to understand professional terminology as members of the general public. I understand that using any particular lexicon is a learned skill.

I guess what I really want to say is that I found the way you confronted this problem here, including in your response to me, as condescending and overbearing. No one means you any harm, and I'm sorry to see the amount of rage you have against "made-up definitions" that are fully legitimate in less restrictive, "professional" spaces. The definitions of words are always in flux, and as someone who ostensibly uses the English language as a professional tool, I imagine you understand that the meaning of a word is often not perfectly rigid, but fluctuates based on context.

The context clue here is: we're on a web fiction site that allows literally anyone to post. They're not going to adopt professional lexicon, and if they do, it won't be because they're being told off with this tone. If you want to help people, this isn't exactly the way I would recommend going about it. An article detailing professional lexicon as it applies to literary scholars and critics would be much more useful, and would be able to be referenced.

Perhaps one of the greatest problems a writer can have is due to the sort of ego-driven, better-than-thou attitude that drives people to refer to words, of all things, as being "abused."

 

[A_veil_of_red_ink]

So you want a Critique?
WARNING! Incoming Rant!

A Critique...? Really?
Are you sure that's what you want? ​

From the responses I've gotten on many different forums, and the responses I've seen others get, plus the resulting peanut gallery commentary, I'm not so sure a Critique is what some of you are actually looking for.

Let's start at the beginning.

View attachment 40296
Do you even know what a Critique actually is?​

cri·tique​

kriˈtēk/​

noun: critique; plural noun: critiques​

1. a detailed analysis and assessment of something, especially a literary, philosophical, or political theory.​

synonyms: analysis, evaluation, assessment, appraisal, appreciation, criticism, review, study, commentary, exposition, exegesis​

"a critique of North American culture"​

verb: critique; 3rd person present: critiques; past tense: critiqued; past participle: critiqued; gerund or present participle: critiquing​

1. evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way.​

"the authors critique the methods and practices used in the research"​

THINK: Are you actually looking for a Critique; a detailed analysis of your work, or are you really looking for something else, but that's the word everyone else is using, so you're using it too?

Things you might really be looking for:​

• "Can you check my sentence structure and look for typos?"
• "Are my characters interesting enough to keep reading?"
• "Is this fight scene or love scene confusing? Did I describe it well enough that you can see what's going on clearly in your imagination?"
• "Does this story drag? Is it boring to you?"
• "Have I used too much narrative and exposition? What should I trim out?"
• "Should I use additional characters to tell this story, or stick with what I have?"
• "Should I use more description in this scene, or more dialog?"
• "Do you like this Main Character, or should I use someone different?"
• "Should I keep writing this or scrap the whole thing?"
• "Is my dialog entertaining enough to keep you interested?"
• "Did I do good this time? Is this an improvement on my last work?"

Once you know what you're really looking for,
you then need to know:

How to ASK
for what you actually Want.​

Here are some examples of how you DON'T do it.

• "Will you gimme a critique?"
• "Can you take a look at my story?"
• "Can you give me an honest opinion of my story?"
• "Can you tell me if this is any good?"

None of these questions will get you what you're after so Stop Asking Them.

Instead:

Be Direct!
Ask point-blank for what you actually Want. ​

Don't play around. Ask for what you want in clear, simple English. Being indirect or too broad in your request for help with your work will not only Not get you want you really want, it frustrates the hell out of those of us that want to help you. How are we supposed to assist you when we don't know what kind of assistance you're looking for?

• You want a Character Interaction check? ASK for one.
• You want a Plotting check? ASK for one.
• You want a Grammar and Typo check? ASK for one.
• You want an Action Scene Description check? ASK for one.
• You want to know if a Scene is boring? ASK if it's boring.
• You want to know if you have enough info in your info-dump exposition, or if you have too much? Ask exactly that.
• You want all of the above? List the entire set of questions and ASK for those things to be checked.

And just for the record:

Specify if this is for a Creative Writing piece
or for something you intend for
Professional Publication.

There IS a Difference!​

The advice from the Professionals such as myself ("Follow these rules,") tends to be diametrically opposed to advice from the Creative writers ("There are no rules!") If you want to avoid a fight breaking out between the Creatives and the Pros, specify the type of writing advice you're looking for. Seriously.

So...!

Don't just throw your writing at us and ask for a Critique!
ASK for Precisely for what you Want.​

This way, those of us experienced enough to offer you solid advice can give you the solid advice you want.

----- Original Message -----​

from: [B]OkuriOkami[/B]​

​

Don't ask for a critique for something ​

you didn't actually write.​

​

If your story is mostly generated by the Butler, Clanker, or whatever you call LLM (AI assistance,) these days, you are not the author. You are a director at best, and a thief at worse.​

​

​

OkuriOkami is Right.
AI generated text is UNACCEPTABLE. ​

No professional business will touch AI generated work -- especially Publishers.

Self-publishers such as; Amazon and Ingram Spark, and vanity presses such as; Hybrid Publishing and Reedsy Limited, are not Publishers. They're Print companies. They'll post/print anything the customer pays for, just like any other printing business. Think: Kinkos, SnapFish, and FedEx Office Print.

AI generated text is Not Accepted
in Any professional capacity. ​

From school assignments, to magazine articles, to the office environment, AI generated text is Not Accepted, and can come with some pretty harsh consequences.

This doesn't mean you can't use ChatGPT or other AI programs for Research!

It means you can't copy/paste a chunk of AI text into any work you plan to claim as written by You, or worse, post an entire story made from solid AI generated text and expect a publisher to take it.

Not only is it fairly easy to spot the difference between AI text and text written by a person, especially if they're an Editor, there are apps out there that flag AI generated text with the snap of a picture, and almost all businesses and teachers have it. I know for a fact that my publisher does.

​

----- Original Message -----​

from: [B]OkuriOkami[/B]​

​

Don't ask for a critique ​

if you don't have any intent to listen to the feedback.​

If you're asking for feedback as a tool to gain more exposure, please don't. Market your story properly. Don't disguise marketing as asking for a critique. Especially if you keep asking for feedback again and again without improving your story using the feedback you received.​

Also...

Don't Attack those of us
that answer your Requests! ​

No one wants to help someone that bites the hand that gives them what they asked for.

If you're not mature enough to gracefully accept that you're going to hear things you may not like about your work, then you're not mature enough to ask for assistance from those of us that actually know what the hell we're doing.

There are tons of people that are damned good at writing, but won't say a word because they've been bitten one too many times when all they did was try to help, myself included.

Suggestion for those that want to Offer their help.
In other words:
How to give Unsolicited Advice: ​

Private Message (PM) the person you want to help and ASK if they're interested in hearing about all the mistakes in their writing, err...hearing the advice you want to offer.

If they say "Sure!" PM your analysis of their work.

If your analysis is particularly long and detailed, in other words; it's going to take a lot of rewriting to get their work straight, don't expect a reply for a week at the very least. It takes about that long for the impact (that their writing needs serious work,) to wear off. (Sometimes it takes Months.)

Remember, it always hurts when someone points out something you got wrong.

Also, don't expect them to follow your advice immediately. Nine times out of ten, they will wait to see if anyone else says the same thing -- or offers an easier solution.

If your analysis is supported by others, the next stage is to try out your advice and see if it actually works for them. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. At this point, it's out of your hands because no matter what, it's up to them to decide if they want to take your advice or not. So don't freak out if they say, "Thanks, but I wanna try something else."

One more thing...

View attachment 40297
Members of the Peanut Gallery?
Stay the hell OUT! ​

Don't get in the way of someone trying to help someone else.

If you don't like the advice offered, it's fine to offer your own take on the situation -- that's actually Helpful.

However...

Don't Attack the other people posting Advice.​

That's not just Rude, it's extremely Unhelpful to the person who posted for help. So what if their advice doesn't agree with what you believe to be true? It's up to the person who Asked for said advice to decide if they want to take the advice offered, or not -- Not You, so keep your Butt Out!

I have spoken.

[/rant]

You may commence with the bitching. ♥


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Want to read my other Writing tutorials?

Lady, I have read your other tutorial, and I respect you as an expert who tends to help writers who don't know how to improve.

Like you helped me. (though you probably forgot.?)
After your help, I have written many scene practices before continuing my main novel... and I think I may have gotten a bit better (or probably not). Thank you for being helpful to newbie writers like me.

Now I can ask people for help and improve, thanks again. And this reply is in appreciation of all the help you provided.?

 

[OokamiKasumi]

Lady, I have read your other tutorial, and I respect you as an expert who tends to help writers who don't know how to improve.

Like you helped me. (though you probably forgot.?)
After your help, I have written many scene practices before continuing my main novel... and I think I may have gotten a bit better (or probably not). Thank you for being helpful to newbie writers like me.

Now I can ask people for help and improve, thanks again. And this reply is in appreciation of all the help you provided.?

I did not forget. You're welcome, and thank you. I'm glad I could be of assistance.

 

[mythosandmagic]

Notable additions:

Don't ask for a critique for something you don't actually write.​

If your story is mostly generated by the butler, clanker, or whatever you call LLM these days, you are not the author. You are a director at best, and a thief at worse.

Don't ask for a critique if you don't have an intent to listen to the feedback.
​

If you're asking for feedback as a tool to gain more exposure, please don't. Market your story properly. Don't disguise marketing as asking for a critique. Especially if you keep asking for feedbacks again and again without improving your story using the feedback you received.

I use AutoCrit's tools of analysis, Grammarly's grammar, spelling, and sentence structure tools. Does this mean I didn't write my story?

 

[OokamiOkuri]

I use AutoCrit's tools of analysis, Grammarly's grammar, spelling, and sentence structure tools. Does this mean I didn't write my story?

AI-Assisted isn't AI-Generated.

AI-Assisted: You write the thing and ask AI to improve it.

AI-Generated: You just input prompts and paste/edit the results.

 

[LeilaniOtter]

I admit, I have a really hard time trying to describe some things. Like for "Luana", I had to describe an 1840s naval vessel coming astern to the shore of the island. And I had literally NO idea what an 1840s naval cruiser might look like. I Googled it, and AI reared its ugly head, so I skipped it and just looked for pictures and descriptions from books and Wikipedia and, poof!

I could write it. And without relying on anything but research. No one researches anymore - they just assume AI is 100% accurate.