Writing [Tutorial] So you want a Critique? [Warning: RANT]

[OokamiKasumi]

So you want a Critique?
WARNING! Incoming Rant!

A Critique...? Really?
Are you sure that's what you want? ​

From the responses I've gotten on many different forums, and the responses I've seen others get, plus the resulting peanut gallery commentary, I'm not so sure a Critique is what some of you are actually looking for.

Let's start at the beginning.

Do you even know what a Critique actually is?​

cri·tique​

kriˈtēk/​

noun: critique; plural noun: critiques​

1. a detailed analysis and assessment of something, especially a literary, philosophical, or political theory.​

synonyms: analysis, evaluation, assessment, appraisal, appreciation, criticism, review, study, commentary, exposition, exegesis​

"a critique of North American culture"​

verb: critique; 3rd person present: critiques; past tense: critiqued; past participle: critiqued; gerund or present participle: critiquing​

1. evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way.​

"the authors critique the methods and practices used in the research"​

THINK: Are you actually looking for a Critique; a detailed analysis of your work, or are you really looking for something else, but that's the word everyone else is using, so you're using it too?

Things you might really be looking for:​

• "Can you check my sentence structure and look for typos?"
• "Are my characters interesting enough to keep reading?"
• "Is this fight scene or love scene confusing? Did I describe it well enough that you can see what's going on clearly in your imagination?"
• "Does this story drag? Is it boring to you?"
• "Have I used too much narrative and exposition? What should I trim out?"
• "Should I use additional characters to tell this story, or stick with what I have?"
• "Should I use more description in this scene, or more dialog?"
• "Do you like this Main Character, or should I use someone different?"
• "Should I keep writing this or scrap the whole thing?"
• "Is my dialog entertaining enough to keep you interested?"
• "Did I do good this time? Is this an improvement on my last work?"

Once you know what you're really looking for,
you then need to know:

How to ASK
for what you actually Want.​

Here are some examples of how you DON'T do it.

• "Will you gimme a critique?"
• "Can you take a look at my story?"
• "Can you give me an honest opinion of my story?"
• "Can you tell me if this is any good?"

None of these questions will get you what you're after so Stop Asking Them.

Instead:

Be Direct!
Ask point-blank for what you actually Want. ​

Don't play around. Ask for what you want in clear, simple English. Being indirect or too broad in your request for help with your work will not only Not get you want you really want, it frustrates the hell out of those of us that want to help you. How are we supposed to assist you when we don't know what kind of assistance you're looking for?

• You want a Character Interaction check? ASK for one.
• You want a Plotting check? ASK for one.
• You want a Grammar and Typo check? ASK for one.
• You want an Action Scene Description check? ASK for one.
• You want to know if a Scene is boring? ASK if it's boring.
• You want to know if you have enough info in your info-dump exposition, or if you have too much? Ask exactly that.
• You want all of the above? List the entire set of questions and ASK for those things to be checked.

And just for the record:

Specify if this is for a Creative Writing piece
or for something you intend for
Professional Publication.

There IS a Difference!​

The advice from the Professionals such as myself ("Follow these rules,") tends to be diametrically opposed to advice from the Creative writers ("There are no rules!") If you want to avoid a fight breaking out between the Creatives and the Pros, specify the type of writing advice you're looking for. Seriously.

So...!

Don't just throw your writing at us and ask for a Critique!
ASK for Precisely for what you Want.​

This way, those of us experienced enough to offer you solid advice can give you the solid advice you want.

----- Original Message -----​

from: [B]OkuriOkami[/B]​

Don't ask for a critique for something
you didn't actually write.​

​

If your story is mostly generated by the Butler, Clanker, or whatever you call LLM (AI assistance,) these days, you are not the author. You are a director at best, and a thief at worse.​

​

​

OkuriOkami is Right.
AI generated text is UNACCEPTABLE. ​

No professional business will touch AI generated work -- especially Publishers.

Self-publishers such as; Amazon and Ingram Spark, and vanity presses such as; Hybrid Publishing and Reedsy Limited, are not Publishers. They're Print companies. They'll post/print anything the customer pays for, just like any other printing business. Think: Kinkos, SnapFish, and FedEx Office Print.

AI generated text is Not Accepted
in Any professional capacity. ​

From school assignments, to magazine articles, to the office environment, AI generated text is Not Accepted, and can come with some pretty harsh consequences.

This doesn't mean you can't use ChatGPT or other AI programs for Research!

It means you can't copy/paste a chunk of AI text into any work you plan to claim as written by You, or worse, post an entire story made from solid AI generated text and expect a publisher to take it.

Not only is it fairly easy to spot the difference between AI text and text written by a person, especially if they're an Editor, there are apps out there that flag AI generated text with the snap of a picture, and almost all businesses and teachers have it. I know for a fact that my publisher does.

​

----- Original Message -----​

from: [B]OkuriOkami[/B]​

Don't ask for a critique
if you don't have any intent to listen to the feedback.​

If you're asking for feedback as a tool to gain more exposure, please don't. Market your story properly. Don't disguise marketing as asking for a critique. Especially if you keep asking for feedback again and again without improving your story using the feedback you received.​

Also...

Don't Attack those of us
that answer your Requests! ​

No one wants to help someone that bites the hand that gives them what they asked for.

If you're not mature enough to gracefully accept that you're going to hear things you may not like about your work, then you're not mature enough to ask for assistance from those of us that actually know what the hell we're doing.

There are tons of people that are damned good at writing, but won't say a word because they've been bitten one too many times when all they did was try to help, myself included.

Suggestion for those that want to Offer their help.
In other words:
How to give Unsolicited Advice: ​

Private Message (PM) the person you want to help and ASK if they're interested in hearing about all the mistakes in their writing, err...hearing the advice you want to offer.

If they say "Sure!" PM your analysis of their work.

If your analysis is particularly long and detailed, in other words; it's going to take a lot of rewriting to get their work straight, don't expect a reply for a week at the very least. It takes about that long for the impact (that their writing needs serious work,) to wear off. (Sometimes it takes Months.)

Remember, it always hurts when someone points out something you got wrong.

Also, don't expect them to follow your advice immediately. Nine times out of ten, they will wait to see if anyone else says the same thing -- or offers an easier solution.

If your analysis is supported by others, the next stage is to try out your advice and see if it actually works for them. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. At this point, it's out of your hands because no matter what, it's up to them to decide if they want to take your advice or not. So don't freak out if they say, "Thanks, but I wanna try something else."

One more thing...

Members of the Peanut Gallery?
Stay the hell OUT! ​

Don't get in the way of someone trying to help someone else.

If you don't like the advice offered, it's fine to offer your own take on the situation -- that's actually Helpful.

However...

Don't Attack the other people posting Advice.​

That's not just Rude, it's extremely Unhelpful to the person who posted for help. So what if their advice doesn't agree with what you believe to be true? It's up to the person who Asked for said advice to decide if they want to take the advice offered, or not -- Not You, so keep your Butt Out!

I have spoken.

[/rant]

You may commence with the bitching. ♥


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Want to read my other Writing tutorials?

 

[Eldoria]

Isn't this the etiquette of asking for a review? Too detailed... It's suitable as a guideline. Thanks.

 

[DaelyxLenAuphydas]

In my experience, anywhere people ask for input on writing tends to attract the dregs of humanity. And usually, people who provide 'feedback' are firmly convinced that they are the planets sole divine arbiter of 'good writing' and know everything best. Further, once there's blood in the water more of the same type tend to be drawn. And I don't say this solely from my own experience, but also what I've seen from others asking for advice. Wanting feedback on a story is not a lead-in for the other person to cut loose and be as rude as they want and insult you for disagreeing or defending anything they had. Feedback is fantastically useful, but most of it still ends up flawed or the result of differences in taste, intent, or priorities.

I'll never understand the arrogance and ego's self-made editors seem to acquire. Belittling and degrading peoples work because it doesn't match someones arbitrary standards isn't any more helpful, and getting additional input from others who disagree with the advice given is useful feedback.

I'll agree that clarity in what you're seeking is good, but most of the time the types of people who offer feedback don't really pay attention to that either. And for that matter, most of the time if you dare to question any of their input or offer any counterpoints, they'll treat you like garbage. So in the end I kinda don't think it matters much at all, since even if you're clear about what you wanted input or advice on, they'll tend to just say whatever they want anyways.

 

[OokamiOkuri]

Notable additions:

Don't ask for a critique for something you don't actually write.​

If your story is mostly generated by the butler, clanker, or whatever you call LLM these days, you are not the author. You are a director at best, and a thief at worse.

Don't ask for a critique if you don't have an intent to listen to the feedback.
​

If you're asking for feedback as a tool to gain more exposure, please don't. Market your story properly. Don't disguise marketing as asking for a critique. Especially if you keep asking for feedbacks again and again without improving your story using the feedback you received.

 

[melchi]

Can Confirm, Okami advice best advice

 

[lydiawinehouse]

All the suggestions are on points, I will make sure to use one of these since i really need interactions, I wanna know how much what I've written so far, what It delivers

 

[PancakesWitch]

I always feel like your posts are over exaggerating some nitpicky and inconsequential thing that doesn’t really matter and that only you care about
Why are Smut Authors always such Drama Queens?

 

[Tempokai]

That's why my roasts aren't "critiques". It's my honest analysis of the piece, understanding where it went wrong, and then writing something funny for entertainment.

I'd say most of the times people don't want holistic analysis, "critique" of their work. To fix whatever that analysis had found usually takes time and actual learning, which takes actual resources. Most of the people want to just write something fun for them and then share it to the world, and "give me feedback" is the most fastest way to start that "sharing" aspect, that leads to them stopping after each flaw of their writing is shown. Dunning-Kruger effect is real, and only those who have thick skin and grit to walk the path further with no confidence can take that feedback seriously.

That leads to the situation where people who ask for feedback get what they don't want, but the thing they probably deserved. Given time and someone actually caring to voice it, that issue would've popped up by at least someone. Basically, problems popping up is only issue of time, and how the author fixes them (or don't) is only thing that matters. Critic, or feedback giver by themselves can't change the author, only direct the flow where the problems must be solved. What you're trying with this guide is to make authors choose their battlefield, which can work, but it will limit the scope of the problems they want to fix, which makes the authorial craft important, which makes the author to learn skills, which takes time, which makes the asking for specific critiques useless enough to not matter, because author can already do the thing they ask from the specific feedback.

That's the worst of asking feedback. Either you as an author is noob enough for the criticism to bury your confidence, or you're good enough for that specific critique to be shallow. Only critique that only works from strangers if it's aligned with your current level, otherwise it's just not worth it. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Even if I would be most objective as possible, quoting dead professors of rhetoric and lit analysis, I would still look like a fool in trying to change someone, because that other mindset is what makes the critique land or not. How critique is accepted is in the audience's hands, not in the critics.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Notable additions:

Don't ask for a critique for something you don't actually write.​

If your story is mostly generated by the butler, clanker, or whatever you call LLM these days, you are not the author. You are a director at best, and a thief at worse.

I've seen some where the correct term is "collaborator" (though by collaborating with AI, you're collaborating with dozens or hundreds of people rather than just a small group).

 

[LeilaniOtter]

I don't critique, I review. ?

Bottom line; you don't really need a critique here unless you're striving for professional publication - either ebooks or hard/soft covers.

Print out your work and share it with writing teachers at school, or in writing groups/meetings, like we used to before the internet. ?

Above all, don't get too hooked up on validation. Your validation will come from your audience. Just be patient and let it happen.

I review prologues and first chapters only (and don't ask, I'm booked solid), just to share my opinions on whether or not they can get readers to turn the pages, and have a good grasp of characters, pacing, and world-building. I can't possibly critique someone's full document and admire those people who have the patience to do so.

For the most part, I'm really proud of the writers I've come across here (some write better than I do!). I don't know why in the world they would come to me and ask if they're doing a good job. They really are and I want to tell all of them to stop wondering if they're on the marks.

You are! Stop obsessing about it! ?

 

[Axiweave]

That's why my roasts aren't "critiques". It's my honest analysis of the piece, understanding where it went wrong, and then writing something funny for entertainment.

I'd say most of the times people don't want holistic analysis, "critique" of their work. To fix whatever that analysis had found usually takes time and actual learning, which takes actual resources. Most of the people want to just write something fun for them and then share it to the world, and "give me feedback" is the most fastest way to start that "sharing" aspect, that leads to them stopping after each flaw of their writing is shown. Dunning-Kruger effect is real, and only those who have thick skin and grit to walk the path further with no confidence can take that feedback seriously.

That leads to the situation where people who ask for feedback get what they don't want, but the thing they probably deserved. Given time and someone actually caring to voice it, that issue would've popped up by at least someone. Basically, problems popping up is only issue of time, and how the author fixes them (or don't) is only thing that matters. Critic, or feedback giver by themselves can't change the author, only direct the flow where the problems must be solved. What you're trying with this guide is to make authors choose their battlefield, which can work, but it will limit the scope of the problems they want to fix, which makes the authorial craft important, which makes the author to learn skills, which takes time, which makes the asking for specific critiques useless enough to not matter, because author can already do the thing they ask from the specific feedback.

That's the worst of asking feedback. Either you as an author is noob enough for the criticism to bury your confidence, or you're good enough for that specific critique to be shallow. Only critique that only works from strangers if it's aligned with your current level, otherwise it's just not worth it. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Even if I would be most objective as possible, quoting dead professors of rhetoric and lit analysis, I would still look like a fool in trying to change someone, because that other mindset is what makes the critique land or not. How critique is accepted is in the audience's hands, not in the critics.

While some parts of your argument is right, I’m going to push back on some parts of it.

1. “That leads to the situation where people who ask for feedback get what they don't want, but the thing they probably deserved.”

What they want or what they deserve isn’t really important. It’s what they need. What they want is probably validation like “Hey, cool story!” Which to be fair, won’t really help unless their story is truly perfect (highly unlikely). The biggest problem about saying it’s “what they deserve” is that it’s saying feedback is a punishment, and also delivery does truly matter. Critics are also human by the way, last time I checked they still eat and drink. And last time I checked humans make mistakes (like the time I tripped over my shoulder). Critics aren’t perfect, and they aren’t always right so what they ‘probably deserved’ might not be correct. What they really need is feedback, good feedback. If it’s harsh, at least, let it actually be ‘deserved’.

2. “That's the worst of asking feedback. Either you as an author is noob enough for the criticism to bury your confidence, or you're good enough for that specific critique to be shallow.”

The author does matter. The authors mindset also does matter. And the credit does matter too… I mean critic. I need Grammarly don’t I-

Good critique is actually a skill believe it or not. A good critic can even help a newer author (kind of funny because I’m still recently new) and not ‘buried their confidence.’ Besides knowing how to actually give a good critique that makes asking for feedback worth it, there’s many simple things under the surface that really helps. I just researched this myself so you can take it how you want.

- 1, Focus on the work, not the person. If your writing is bad, I can say “your writing is bad.” I can also say, “Your works writing is bad.” it’s just an example, but it makes a huge difference.

- 2, Tailor to the author. And this is why authors “choosing their battlefield” is actually really good. Specific feedback is needed instead of just leaving it all open game which won’t really help much, and it helps good critics (emphasis on good) know what to focus on.

You’re probably expecting me to give a number three. Three is an attractive number. But I want to seem unique and cool so I’m only giving two-

I’m done and I say this all with respect. :)

 

[OokamiKasumi]

Isn't this the etiquette of asking for a review?

It can be.

Too detailed... It's suitable as a guideline. Thanks.

It's not too detailed for those of us that get asked for critiques and reviews multiple times on the daily.

When you're reviewing a story, you can skim the work and just talk about the characters and plot. When you're doing Critiques though, it's a Lot more involved. It's practically a line edit; a line by line edit, plus character and plot deconstruction.

It's so much easier for those of us writing those damned reviews and critiques if we know what they want. That way, we can just give it to them, and go on to the next one.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In my experience, anywhere people ask for input on writing tends to attract the dregs of humanity. And usually, people who provide 'feedback' are firmly convinced that they are the planets sole divine arbiter of 'good writing' and know everything best. Further, once there's blood in the water more of the same type tend to be drawn. And I don't say this solely from my own experience, but also what I've seen from others asking for advice.

Those are called Trolls, and yes they love to leap in with their nasty comments if given any chance what so ever. Even worse, once one troll posts every troll in the neighborhood has to jump on their bandwagon and post too.

Wanting feedback on a story is not a lead-in for the other person to cut loose and be as rude as they want and insult you for disagreeing or defending anything they had.

The problem is: Trolls Don't Care.
-- Attention is what they are after. They want to instigate arguments in your comments sections purely for entertainment value. Their entertainment value. If the author tries to b!itch at them for starting a ruckus, BONUS Attention!

Feedback is fantastically useful, but most of it still ends up flawed or the result of differences in taste, intent, or priorities.

Keep in mind who is giving the feedback.
-- Most of the people on this site are either strictly readers; not writers, or amateur beginner writers themselves with hardly any experience on writing to speak of.

Professional writers very rarely spend their time on sites like this one. The pros that Do, tend to leave tutorials in the Forum section. The only time they'd leave a personal review is if they are very, very impressed.

I'll never understand the arrogance and ego's self-made editors seem to acquire. Belittling and degrading peoples work because it doesn't match someones arbitrary standards isn't any more helpful...

Either those are Trolls, or the author doesn't realize just how much they need to rework their story -- therefore offending, and terrifying, the author who thought they did a good, or creative job.

Creative writers in particular, do Not like advice for their work, because what they're doing, no matter how badly it reads, is Deliberate. They're being Creative.

...getting additional input from others who disagree with the advice given is useful feedback.

I agree.

I'll agree that clarity in what you're seeking is good, but most of the time the types of people who offer feedback don't really pay attention to that either. And for that matter, most of the time if you dare to question any of their input or offer any counterpoints, they'll treat you like garbage. So in the end I kinda don't think it matters much at all, since even if you're clear about what you wanted input or advice on, they'll tend to just say whatever they want anyways.

That definitely sounds like you're seeing Trolls -- not people trying to offer constructive help.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notable additions:

Don't ask for a critique for something you don't actually write.​

If your story is mostly generated by the butler, clanker, or whatever you call LLM these days, you are not the author. You are a director at best, and a thief at worse.

Don't ask for a critique if you don't have an intent to listen to the feedback.
​

If you're asking for feedback as a tool to gain more exposure, please don't. Market your story properly. Don't disguise marketing as asking for a critique. Especially if you keep asking for feedbacks again and again without improving your story using the feedback you received.

May I have permission to add this to my essay?
-- With credit, of course.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can Confirm, Okami advice best advice

Aww... Thank you!
-- But truthfully, I just want more Good stories to read. If my advice encourages a writer to make that happen, I have accomplished my goal.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All the suggestions are on points, I will make sure to use one of these since i really need interactions, I wanna know how much what I've written so far, what It delivers

Please do!
-- Use as you please. Fold, spindle, and mutilate as needed.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I always feel like your posts are over exaggerating some nit-picky and inconsequential thing that doesn’t really matter and that only you care about

Quality Writing Matters -- especially to those who are Reading what is posted.

Too many stories here on SH are so very close to being excellent. If I can inspire that little push into excellence with a tutorial or twenty, I am happy to do so.

After all, who doesn't want to read an Excellent story?

Why are Smut Authors always such Drama Queens?

Oh honey...
-- It's the Horror and Gothic writers that are dramatic.

Us Smut writers are Passionate.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's why my roasts aren't "critiques". It's my honest analysis of the piece, understanding where it went wrong, and then writing something funny for entertainment.

The problem is: Writer Egos are Fragile.
-- The wrong comment can utterly decimate a writer's will to write -- and that's Bad. No more writing means their stories go Unfinished, or worse: no more stories from that writer. This is really bad if they were anywhere near being a decent writer.

Writers that haven't yet graduated from high school are even more sensitive to critique. They haven't built up the thick skin needed to deal with someone, or several someones, pointing out their mistakes, yet. Other people's opinions still matter to them, and can affect them profoundly.

You have to be Careful in how you present your analysis to the writer.

I'd say most of the times people don't want holistic analysis, "critique" of their work. To fix whatever that analysis had found usually takes time and actual learning, which takes actual resources. Most of the people want to just write something fun for them and then share it to the world, and "give me feedback" is the most fastest way to start that "sharing" aspect, that leads to them stopping after each flaw of their writing is shown.

This is 100% TRUE.
-- Most of the people here on SH especially, are looking for Compliments, not critiques.

THIS is why I don't do critiques or reviews without knowing exactly what the writer is looking for. I don't want to over-step into an area they are not prepared to fix yet.

Dunning-Kruger effect is real, and only those who have thick skin and grit to walk the path further with no confidence can take that feedback seriously.

It takes a high level of stubbornness, and an almost spiteful drive to Write a Damned Good Story to get over a hard critiques of one's work.

In my case, it took a hard editor who was very experienced in using the "Carrot and Stick" method to improve my writing. I am still grateful to her for her harsh education. Then again, I am really, really stubborn, spiteful, and mildly obsessed in my drive to write a damned good story.

...That leads to the situation where people who ask for feedback get what they don't want, but the thing they probably deserved. Given time and someone actually caring to voice it, that issue would've popped up by at least someone. Basically, problems popping up is only issue of time, and how the author fixes them (or don't) is only thing that matters.

True.
-- If one person spotted an issue, and actually posted on it, it's pretty much a guarantee that many more spotted the same issue and just didn't mention it. If the writer doesn't fix that issue, it's pretty much a guarantee that eventually, there will be more posts pointing out that same issue.

However, most writers will wait to see if those posts occur before even considering fixing the problem. Sadly, that's usually 10 chapters later when the problem has become an infestation and would take an almost complete overhaul of the story to uproot.

Critic, or feedback giver by themselves can't change the author, only direct the flow where the problems must be solved.

Agreed.

What you're trying with this guide is to make authors choose their battlefield,

YES.

...choose their battlefield, which can work, but it will limit the scope of the problems they want to fix, which makes the authorial craft important, which makes the author to learn skills, which takes time, which makes the asking for specific critiques useless enough to not matter, because author can already do the thing they ask from the specific feedback.

Most writers here on SH are Amateur Writers. They have never had an editor scrape through their work with a red pen marking every single sentence with something, even if it's just an added comma.

My manuscripts sometimes come back with so much red ink, it looks like it's bleeding -- and I'm considered a very good writer by these same editors!

Far too many here on SH would have a great deal of trouble handling more than a few mistakes at a time without their joy in writing collapsing under the pressure to Fix their many, many issues.

So yes, having them Ask Specifically for what they want examined is a much easier way for writers to deal with their issues in a Controlled manner without crushing their enjoyment of writing.

Let them deal with One Thing at a Time, because Time is all they need to improve.

That's the worst of asking feedback. Either you as an author is noob enough for the criticism to bury your confidence, or you're good enough for that specific critique to be shallow.

Sadly, this is very true.

Only critique that only works from strangers if it's aligned with your current level, otherwise it's just not worth it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Ah... I'm going to have to disagree here.
-- The only critique that works from strangers, is if the critique is from a Higher level of Writer, or a high level Reader that is experienced in giving constructive advice. Someone of the same level won't necessarily know what the writer needs to take their work to the next level of polish.

Even if I would be most objective as possible, quoting dead professors of rhetoric and lit analysis, I would still look like a fool in trying to change someone, because that other mindset is what makes the critique land or not. How critique is accepted is in the audience's hands, not in the critics.

Correct. Once the critique is posted, it's up to the writer to decide what they want to do about it. If they act on it, or ignore it, that's all in their hands.

You can show a horse the water, but you can't make them drink.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't critique, I review. ?

Reviews are so much easier than critiques. You can just point out the characterization and plotting flaws and skip all the nuts and bolts of paragraph structure and chronological order. Critiques are supposed to point out everything, not just the big issues.

Bottom line; you don't really need a critique here unless you're striving for professional publication - either ebooks or hard/soft covers.

Agreed.
--By the way, eBook publishers pay Much better, and far more often than print publication.

Print out your work and share it with writing teachers at school, or in writing groups/meetings, like we used to before the internet. ?

That only works if the writing teachers and the people in the writing groups/meetings are Published Authors with the experience to know what to look for to help.

Also writing groups are Not a safe option. They never were.
-- The people in those groups are direct competitors. Jealousy is a Thing. It is in their best interests to knock down their competition by giving Bad Advice. I watched it happen in several Romance Readers of America groups.

Above all, don't get too hooked up on validation. Your validation will come from your audience. Just be patient and let it happen.

100% AGREE.

I review prologues and first chapters only (and don't ask, I'm booked solid), just to share my opinions on whether or not they can get readers to turn the pages, and have a good grasp of characters, pacing, and world-building. I can't possibly critique someone's full document and admire those people who have the patience to do so.

Excellent policy!
-- Normally I'd say: add the Last Page too, to see if the writer actually fulfills the promise of their opening chapter, but far too many stories on this site don't have a Last Page. They never reach The End.

For the most part, I'm really proud of the writers I've come across here (some write better than I do!). I don't know why in the world they would come to me and ask if they're doing a good job. They really are and I want to tell all of them to stop wondering if they're on the marks.

You are! Stop obsessing about it! ?

LOL!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[DaelyxLenAuphydas]

In my view, direct criticism is rarely helpful as it mostly just tells you how someone else would write the story. There are some legitimate 'mistakes', but I find its more frequent that things people point to as mistakes- even things people claim are objective, solid fact- are more a matter of taste than anything.

What I personally adore in feedback (Other than help with blatant errors like spelling mistakes, redundancies, stilted/non-flowing writing, etc.) is hearing how people interpret the writing. If someone doesnt like a story beat then that doesnt really help you write that story beat if thats what you're doing, but if a person misinterprets the beat, that's actionable. The most important kind of input one can get from readers in my opinion is just to see what the story looks like, how it comes across, what emotions it inspires... Etc. because that gives you some idea of how your writing is actually communicating to the audience.

But I will say that one of the things that frustrates me to no end is people who give feedback or critique think they arent being listened to at all if the writer doesnt take everything they say as word of god immediately with no critical thought at all. I've gotten immense value from the feedback of people that I disagreed with almost everything they said before. Sometimes they have a very strong opinion but I personally felt a middle ground between what they suggested and what I wrote was best, othre times I just outright disagreed with most of what they had said but still found many useful nuggets. Other times they got the correct impression but thought it was unintentional for some reason (that one in particular happened a lot I dont know why) so I felt the need to make it more clear that it was an intentional aspect of the story.

Thats why I feel the need to comment here at all, tbh. Because I find the mindset of 'if the writer isn't doing everything the editor says then they just aren't listening' very frustrating. Very frequently 'mistakes' pointed out arent actually mistakes, 'objective' feedback is nothing but opinions, and 'critique' can often be little more than shallow attacks on works that people dislike for any number of reasons ranging from taste to morality. And yet despite that, feedback is still immensely useful, simply because it gives you an idea of how different people will respond to and understand the work.

As a personal example, I cut some 7,000 words from my first four chapters because I had multiple people criticize it for slow pacing, and I ended up reworking huge segments of dialogue and action based on input I received, even though I categorically disagreed with the majority of comments I received on it. And despite that I disagreed with so many of them, I still found the help immensely valuable because there was often some nugget or aspect of the input that I could work with even if the overall sentiment wasnt. And despite that I made such extensive changes based on feedback I received, I still can often find myself being told that I dont take criticism simply because I dont agree categorically with everything said without any pushback.

I feel that to be good at writing you need to be able to take feedback. But to be good at editting you also need to be able to take pushback on that editting/feedback because the author often has specific reasons for making choices they did. Trying to understand those decisions and figure out how to alleviate any problems found while maintaining that core spirit is integral to good editting, I feel.

 

[OokamiOkuri]

May I have permission to add this to my essay?
-- With credit, of course.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Go ahead. We are the same person anyway.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

Go ahead. We are the same person anyway.

Thank you!
-- and...DONE!

 

[melchi]

I've seen some where the correct term is "collaborator" (though by collaborating with AI, you're collaborating with dozens or hundreds of people rather than just a small group).

I think director is a better term. A director is responsible for the end product. A collaborator is just giving input.

You don't see peter jackson blaming his script writers or actors if a film flops. A director can replace either one of them, a collaborator can just say that it was someone else's responsibility.

 

[zephyrtrillian]

Honestly, at my current point of experience, I would love it if someone was passionate enough to blaze through all my work and be a right problem about it. It would mean that they care, you know?

 

[OokamiKasumi]

Honestly, at my current point of experience, I would love it if someone was passionate enough to blaze through all my work and be a right problem about it. It would mean that they care, you know?

It takes literal Hours for me to critique just one chapter. This is because I'm not just pointing out the mistakes, I point out how to Fix those mistakes too.

The most frequent mistakes are addressed in this tutorial:​

[Tutorial] The Secret to Proper Paragraphing and Dialogue​

I won't commit to that much unpaid work simply out of Spite. If I do a critique, or even a simple review, it is because the story is so close to brilliant, it just needs a little push and a bit of polish to get there.

This doesn't mean there aren't those who do reviews and critiques out of pure spite. There are. I'm just not willing to put in that much work to be one of them.

 

[Deleted member 166465]

I lover critics, opinions, head bashing, or anything that might signal a mistake on my writing, method, style, gramatic, anything. I take anything, I dont care where it comes from or in what way, I want to improve. You cant improve if you believe your work is perfect or no one signals your mistakes.

 

[zephyrtrillian]

It takes literal Hours for me to critique just one chapter. This is because I'm not just pointing out the mistakes, I point out how to Fix those mistakes too.

The most frequent mistakes are addressed in this tutorial:​

[Tutorial] The Secret to Proper Paragraphing and Dialogue​

I won't commit to that much unpaid work simply out of Spite. If I do a critique, or even a simple review, it is because the story is so close to brilliant, it just needs a little push and a bit of polish to get there.

This doesn't mean there aren't those who do reviews and critiques out of pure spite. There are. I'm just not willing to put in that much work to be one of them.

I see. Hours for one chapter is not the level of critique I am ever expecting from someone, nor do I expect you to critique my work personally.

I think the article you've posted here is defining "critique" differently than I do. "Critique" is colloquially used more like "give me your honest opinion, and does anything stand out as problematic?" We're not using it like people in professional literary circles might.