The thing about WAR Novel

[Bimbanana]

I write about fantasy & fun politics, yes. And fun politics is all about fun war, yes. And i'm still doing fine when the war is still 1vs1 or 3vs3

But here's the thing. Now i need to scale it up to waaay up there. Like WW2 scale or cold war scale.

But how the heck should i write a scale that big without overwhelming the readers with too many info dump (many new country, characters, war fronts, etc)
And now... i don't even know where to begin...

Tbh, i'm pretty stuck that i write joke series (go read Orc's Journal on chapters discussion) as my coping mechanism.

I actually dont even know what i really want to ask here.
But! Any recommendation of war history or political figures that i can use for reference will be appreciated


Edit: This is the global scale that i want to achieve. Well, at least half of it

 

[Rzzy]

Hey, we dive same genre, can I join in? I also want to get the same lesson about avoiding info dumps, didn't expect show no tell to be so difficult

 

[SouthernMaiden]

War. War never changes

Idk, but I used to listen to hardcore history. Probably the best history podcast of all tome ever

 

[Snake99]

Read Thucydides' account of the Peloponnesian War

 

[YukieSama]

My question to you is why would it be an info dump? Even in ww2 there were many fronts and it was split into 1v1 to 3v3's. Is your protagonist going to be in all the fronts? Why is the war happening? Also it's probably going to take a lot of chapters so I don't think they're going to be overwhelmed

Just my two cents. Best way to solve abstract problems is to ask concrete questions

 

[Anonjohn20]

All you need at the beginning is a "casus belli" and two conflicting sides. All the complex exposition can be slowly drip-fed over time.

 

[A-Random-Writer]

if you have the time maybe a map or like a news paper clipping would give insight to the reader and honestly that would be pretty cool to show what the countries are like. ( or you fill it with propaganda but that is still cool for the story)

 

[Pennywise]

All you need is make the Mc ...EREN YEAGER!

 

[Bimbanana]

War. War never changes

Idk, but I used to listen to hardcore history. Probably the best history podcast of all tome ever

Hardcore history podcast is it? will check it out, thanks!

Read Thucydides' account of the Peloponnesian War

Oooh peloponnesian, aight will also check it. Thanks!

My question to you is why would it be an info dump? Even in ww2 there were many fronts and it was split into 1v1 to 3v3's. Is your protagonist going to be in all the fronts? Why is the war happening? Also it's probably going to take a lot of chapters so I don't think they're going to be overwhelmed

Just my two cents. Best way to solve abstract problems is to ask concrete questions

Yep, i have like 15 protagonist maybe more in this war arc that will be spreaded out across the globe. Sigh, you're right i guess no way to avoid this arc becoming 120++ chapters

All you need at the beginning is a "casus belli" and two conflicting sides. All the complex exposition can be slowly drip-fed over time.

Already done that. Now is about people fighting. About struggle. About devastation! About HORROR! MUAHAHAHA wait what am talking about again?

if you have the time maybe a map or like a news paper clipping would give insight to the reader and honestly that would be pretty cool to show what the countries are like. ( or you fill it with propaganda but that is still cool for the story)

uhh, yes i've made the map when everything still peaceful. Guess i need to stare at it again and imagine which country got dragged and what possible campaign would be cool enough to be shown. (OMG THIS IS IT! THANKS!)

All you need is make the Mc ...EREN YEAGER!

RRROAAAAAARRR

 

[TinaMigarlo]

I have a recurring MC and a few sidekicks who was *in* a war, but it was a non standard war. Twice I open the book with a third person short war experience. Because there's a slow start to the first person story of him later in life. Takes you a few seconds to realize that's the "quiet unassuming guy". I do this so the reader realizes this seemingly "boring guy" is going to get some action, its just not every fucking chapter. Another book he's in, there's what I think of as an interesting chapter late in the book. there's an interview of a professional soldier in the conflict itself, and he's real frank about the situation there. He is preceded in the interview by a spokesperson from the country they're helping out defending them.

throughout his origin story, you slowly learn ALL about the crazy war he was in.

I was kinda proud of the "interview" portion, because it disguises an info dump as a mildly entertaining something different in the book. i go for gritty reality in war scenes, not the wisecracking unstoppable hero.

White Death - Chapter 00 – Preface | Scribble Hub

www.scribblehub.com

^^^ not like I could roll with an entire book ABOUT this war in this fashion. but it gives you an idea of how you can describe what's going on, without simply trying to text across a war movie scene. The purpose of this chapter is to break the reader into exactly what kind of shit the MC has been into, so later on you'll know he's going to be capable at tackling thug problems when it comes up.

later in the same book, he's hurt after the big fight and on a pain pill and some morphine paste. He relates to the girl he's close with taking care of him, his own breaking point back then. I like to give a sense of what a war like that does to the guys that make it back.

 

[Eldoria]

I've faced this dilemma. In an epic-scale conflict, you can't give an info dump through an omniscient narrator because the story would be too boring.

Ultimately, I decided on adaptive POV, using various historical narratives, character experiences, and bird's-eye views. POV can be very flexible according to the narrative's needs.

For example, when you want to convey the history of a war, you can adopt a historical POV by reading ancient reliefs and manuscripts using a "We" narrator. It will provide a deep sense of collective emotion over past tragedies.

Conversely, when you're narrating a battle on the battlefield, you can shift your POV to a limited third POV that focuses on the central character (usually the chapter's protagonist) fighting their enemies. It will make the narrative intense, tense, and emotionally charged.

Furthermore, you can use an objective/cinematic third POV to depict the battlefield at a macro level (troop formations, geography, and the atmosphere of war) through a bird's-eye view. It allows the reader to see the full picture of how the war unfolded objectively and macro.

Adaptive POV adapts to the needs of a war narrative. I've included some examples for reference below. I hope it helps.

1. War history POV
2. Bird's-eye POV
3. Character POV: Captain Reynard and Commander Feroux

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

I write about fantasy & fun politics, yes. And fun politics is all about fun war, yes. And i'm still doing fine when the war is still 1vs1 or 3vs3

But here's the thing. Now i need to scale it up to waaay up there. Like WW2 scale or cold war scale.

But how the heck should i write a scale that big without overwhelming the readers with too many info dump (many new country, characters, war fronts, etc)
And now... i don't even know where to begin...

Tbh, i'm pretty stuck that i write joke series (go read Orc's Journal on chapters discussion) as my coping mechanism.

I actually dont even know what i really want to ask here.
But! Any recommendation of war history or political figures that i can use for reference will be appreciated

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Options:
1) Go the war commentator route - your character (or characters) narrate the story. Their awareness of the war grows as the scope rises and the importance of the war sinks it.
2) Don't worry about it - your character(s) only experience part of what's going on, so only share those parts with your readers. Keep track of the rest in the background and maybe have it impact their story occasionally.
3) Trust that your readers are here FOR the war, and carry on has you have been doing; don't worry about the scale, your readers are there for the story and likely EXPECT it to go huge.

 

[Bimbanana]

I have a recurring MC and a few sidekicks who was *in* a war, but it was a non standard war. Twice I open the book with a third person short war experience. Because there's a slow start to the first person story of him later in life. Takes you a few seconds to realize that's the "quiet unassuming guy". I do this so the reader realizes this seemingly "boring guy" is going to get some action, its just not every fucking chapter. Another book he's in, there's what I think of as an interesting chapter late in the book. there's an interview of a professional soldier in the conflict itself, and he's real frank about the situation there. He is preceded in the interview by a spokesperson from the country they're helping out defending them.

throughout his origin story, you slowly learn ALL about the crazy war he was in.

I was kinda proud of the "interview" portion, because it disguises an info dump as a mildly entertaining something different in the book. i go for gritty reality in war scenes, not the wisecracking unstoppable hero.

White Death - Chapter 00 – Preface | Scribble Hub

www.scribblehub.com

^^^ not like I could roll with an entire book ABOUT this war in this fashion. but it gives you an idea of how you can describe what's going on, without simply trying to text across a war movie scene. The purpose of this chapter is to break the reader into exactly what kind of shit the MC has been into, so later on you'll know he's going to be capable at tackling thug problems when it comes up.

later in the same book, he's hurt after the big fight and on a pain pill and some morphine paste. He relates to the girl he's close with taking care of him, his own breaking point back then. I like to give a sense of what a war like that does to the guys that make it back.

I thought you write a soccer story Thanks, will check it out

I've faced this dilemma. In an epic-scale conflict, you can't give an info dump through an omniscient narrator because the story would be too boring.

Ultimately, I decided on adaptive POV, using various historical narratives, character experiences, and bird's-eye views. POV can be very flexible according to the narrative's needs.

For example, when you want to convey the history of a war, you can adopt a historical POV by reading ancient reliefs and manuscripts using a "We" narrator. It will provide a deep sense of collective emotion over past tragedies.

Conversely, when you're narrating a battle on the battlefield, you can shift your POV to a limited third POV that focuses on the central character (usually the chapter's protagonist) fighting their enemies. It will make the narrative intense, tense, and emotionally charged.

Furthermore, you can use an objective/cinematic third POV to depict the battlefield at a macro level (troop formations, geography, and the atmosphere of war) through a bird's-eye view. It allows the reader to see the full picture of how the war unfolded objectively and macro.

Adaptive POV adapts to the needs of a war narrative. I've included some examples for reference below. I hope it helps.

1. War history POV
2. Bird's-eye POV
3. Character POV: Captain Reynard and Commander Feroux

Thank youuu. As expected from Eldoria senpai, instantly recognized the problem

Options:
1) Go the war commentator route - your character (or characters) narrate the story. Their awareness of the war grows as the scope rises and the importance of the war sinks it.
2) Don't worry about it - your character(s) only experience part of what's going on, so only share those parts with your readers. Keep track of the rest in the background and maybe have it impact their story occasionally.
3) Trust that your readers are here FOR the war, and carry on has you have been doing; don't worry about the scale, your readers are there for the story and likely EXPECT it to go huge.

This!
Thank you so much professor charles

 

[eagle_360]

But! Any recommendation of war history or political figures that i can use for reference will be appreciated

My dearest baby orc,

It is always easiest to write the fascist route.

 

[TinaMigarlo]

I thought you write a soccer story Thanks, will check it out

the soccer ball is a sort of a "motif" for a main character, and for more than one reason after the origin trilogy is done.
I thought of tag-lining the series "the Karma novels", and the soccer ball is still a little "motif' to identify the Karma novels from my stand alone stuff.
Merry's Present, for instance, the one the "punchy" intro chapter came from.
its a hard boil crime noir investigation, but its part of the Karma Novels series.

 

[Ai-chan]

Why would there be infodumps though? It's just a war arc. Pick a side, pick a main POV and stick to it. Anything else should be treated as side stories.

You mentioned 15 protagonists, Ai-chan doesn't think it's wise to have that many protagonists. That not only would give you headache, it would give all your readers a headache and exhaust their motivation for reading your story after a few chapters. You'd be better off splitting the story into multiple books with separate protagonists from their own point of view. Having 15 separate protagonists in the same story is probably a first. Ai-chan has never come across any novel amateur or professional that used that many protagonists.

Look at the Dragon Quest manga for example, there are many characters, but the main characters have always been one person, the Dragon Knight Dai. Everyone else were supporting characters even when they have their own arcs. In the game Symphony of War: The Nephilim Saga, there are over 40 characters but the protagonist are only the Hero of Legend, either Devoa or Lindly. Every story or battles told with the other characters as the main character are just side stories and the story focused on how the Hero of Legend carry the day forward.

 

[Bimbanana]

Why would there be infodumps though? It's just a war arc. Pick a side, pick a main POV and stick to it. Anything else should be treated as side stories.

You mentioned 15 protagonists, Ai-chan doesn't think it's wise to have that many protagonists. That not only would give you headache, it would give all your readers a headache and exhaust their motivation for reading your story after a few chapters. You'd be better off splitting the story into multiple books with separate protagonists from their own point of view. Having 15 separate protagonists in the same story is probably a first. Ai-chan has never come across any novel amateur or professional that used that many protagonists.

Look at the Dragon Quest manga for example, there are many characters, but the main characters have always been one person, the Dragon Knight Dai. Everyone else were supporting characters even when they have their own arcs. In the game Symphony of War: The Nephilim Saga, there are over 40 characters but the protagonist are only the Hero of Legend, either Devoa or Lindly. Every story or battles told with the other characters as the main character are just side stories and the story focused on how the Hero of Legend carry the day forward.

Phew, i'm pretty lucky then that i still have many readers without headache and exhaustion after 110+ chapters.

Yeaa... sorry but i don't know those names Ai-chan are referring to.
But here's a popular reference that Ai-chan might know that i applied on my novel: The Walking Dead (A story with 17 protagonists if im not mistaken).
Why not referring to a novel? Well, i think mostly because i was doing screenplay for a decade before i start doing novel.

But thanks for Ai-chan input

 

[eagle_360]

Hiya,

Expert here. Been through one (watch on the phone).

War is usually very boring.

Different pov might help to make it less boring.

 

[Ai-chan]

Phew, i'm pretty lucky then that i still have many readers without headache and exhaustion after 110+ chapters.

Yeaa... sorry but i don't know those names Ai-chan are referring to.
But here's a popular reference that Ai-chan might know that i applied on my novel: The Walking Dead (A story with 17 protagonists if im not mistaken).
Why not referring to a novel? Well, i think mostly because i was doing screenplay for a decade before i start doing novel.

But thanks for Ai-chan input

The Walking Dead is a serial, it is fundamentally different from a novel. But then again, The Walking Dead doesn't actually have 17 protagonists. It has several main characters for a given arc. And that itself is a problem. Most criticisms about The Walking Dead is that it has way too many characters and the writers didn't know what to do with them.

While Ai-chan didn't watch the entirety of the serial (got bored by the 5th season). these main characters did not function as the protagonists at the same time. They are protagonists of their own arcs. The main protagonist is still only Rick Grimes and the story still pivots around "what's grimes doing now" or "if grimes were here" or "grimes would have something to say about that" even after he left.

So while opinions differ, Ai-chan thinks those various protagonists in The Walking Dead are still just supporting characters to provide a different perspective and not the main element of the story. Still, that's Ai-chan's opinion on The Walking Dead. Ai-chan actually isn't a fan of that serial after Season 4, it has way too many characters.

Once Again, Walking Dead Has A Problem With Too Many Characters

The latest death proves its an issue.

screenrant.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/thewalkingdead/comments/7kz5gf

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-writers-of-the-walking-dead-keep-dedicating-full-episodes-to-side-characters-that-no-one-cares-about

https://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-Walking-Dead-series-gotten-worse-over-time-according-to-many-viewers