The Dense/Doormat/Beta MC

[Xiaoshen]

Not that I don't believe you. But I do not get why you weren't interested in the girls.

Also, how is this related to the OP, unless you consider yourself a Jap MC archtype

Fair-weather friends, especially of the gossiping bitchy schoolgirl variety, tend to be nothing but trouble. I don't know about ya'll, but two-faced egotistical thots aren't attractive to me either. Even to pump and dump, the nerdy chicks are superior!

 

[Bloodysin28]

Not that I don't believe you. But I do not get why you weren't interested in the girls.

Also, how is this related to the OP, unless you consider yourself a Jap MC archtype

Cause I'm the "I'm saving myself for marriage " religious type and bitches had shit personality and slept around.

 

[AkalE]

Cause I'm the "I'm saving myself for marriage " religious type and bitches had shit personality and slept around.

wow. so you won't talk to a girl before marriage? Well this makes me realise the OP could have been onto something...

Fair-weather friends, especially of the gossiping bitchy schoolgirl variety, tend to be nothing but trouble. I don't know about ya'll, but two-faced egotistical thots aren't attractive to me either. Even to pump and dump, the nerdy chicks are superior!

When you say this, I stop believing in the dense Jap MC thing again. I don't see the Asian hesitation and shy male anywhere.

Don't give Asian guys a bad name. If you are into a girl just approach her, they don't bite. And confidence is a much more appealing trait than a shy guys fantasizing in secret. Also, that's true no matter which country you come from.

P.S Being able to talk to a girl doesn't make a guy a douche :)

 

[Nanakawaichan]

This reminds me of middle school,I hanged out with fellow nerds and animefans(not full on weeb)said strongest Chad guy came to pick a fight with me and even straight up tried to punch me in the face,I sent the guy to the hospital with a caved in ribcage for3months,the guys should have known not to fuck with a guys whose family has served in the very elite of the country for over20 generations,his punch was practically a mosquito bite compared to the disciplining beats I took from my dad growing up,all the school bitches were then suddenly interested in me but I felt nothing but disgust.

Oni-tan

Aside from the jokes. It's normal for women interested in strong guy. It's in their instinct. They need a male who can protect her and her babies. Also a strong physically male is considered to have the ability to survive, a long life and work longer than a sickly male.

And will make him/her do the project/activity by himself/herself while others loiter around. ???

That's it! Correct!
O, sensei. Please, shall thou throw your anger upon them. For those who neglected their team work...

 

[Deleted member 29316]

wow. so you won't talk to a girl before marriage? Well this makes me realise the OP could have been onto something...


When you say this, I stop believing in the dense Jap MC thing again. I don't see the Asian hesitation and shy male anywhere.

Don't give Asian guys a bad name. If you are into a girl just approach her, they don't bite. And confidence is a much more appealing trait than a shy guys fantasizing in secret. Also, that's true no matter which country you come from.

P.S Being able to talk to a girl doesn't make a guy a douche :)

Who says that being able to talk to a girl is being a douche? And who's saying that being reserved or shy is a bad thing? A little dose of that and a dash of self-confidence too is fine. Aren't everything that is out of proportions what's truly bad?

And again, I think we're getting off topic here. I'm talking about the influence of the conservative culture and education to the literary tropes being written by most Asian writers.

Like when a guy doesn't immediately approach a girl, in contrast to Western conventions. Again, I did say in my post before that there are exceptions, and you brought up the amateur writers dabbling in romance.

Again, there's no problem in that, I think it's also true. However, do consider, aside from those Japanese LNs that they've read, where else would they get their characters' personality? The most immediate answer is in their culture. The values where they were raised in.

For example, I have a student who's half-German. I noticed that when he writes, his characters' personalities were on the conservative side. When I asked him about it, I found out that his mother (Asian) raised him.

He's an amateur writer, but the way he writes is influenced by the culture where he was raised.

 

[Nanakawaichan]

Cause I'm the "I'm saving myself for marriage " religious type and bitches had shit personality and slept around.

Waw, that's cute (This is a real compliment)
You should add tag 'cold protagonist' on you

 

[Bloodysin28]

wow. so you won't talk to a girl before marriage? Well this makes me realise the OP could have been onto something...


When you say this, I stop believing in the dense Jap MC thing again. I don't see the Asian hesitation and shy male anywhere.

Don't give Asian guys a bad name. If you are into a girl just approach her, they don't bite. And confidence is a much more appealing trait than a shy guys fantasizing in secret. Also, that's true no matter which country you come from.

P.S Being able to talk to a girl doesn't make a guy a douche :)

I never said we can't talk to girls,or else how would I exist considering my parents were childhood sweethearts,just no improper sexual conduct.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

I never said we can't talk to girls,or else how would I exist considering my parents were childhood sweethearts,just no improper sexual conduct.

Now this is what I'm talking about.

That's why some MCs are being called 'dense' or 'beta' because of their belief about proper sexual conduct.

 

[ForestDweller]

I just can't enjoy writing domineering MCs to be honest. So my MCs would always seek an equal relationship.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

I just can't enjoy writing domineering MCs to be honest. So my MCs would always seek an equal relationship.

Well, equal relationships are much better than having only one person work in maintaining it...even IRL.

 

[Vaxel00]

Now this is what I'm talking about.

That's why some MCs are being called 'dense' or 'beta' because of their belief about proper sexual conduct.

Depends on context too, there's a line between principles and cowardice. If the mc takes a single female character and only her that's fine, if mc wants to have multiple women that's fine too. However, when an emotional connection is established between both characters and mc refuses to act even when there's consent then mc is just a coward.
(Infinite stratos and to love-ru gave me PTSD)

Cowardice is not a good character trait you want to base a main character on.
I define a beta mc as someone weak, with no ambition and a coward.

 

[Bloodysin28]

Now this is what I'm talking about.

That's why some MCs are being called 'dense' or 'beta' because of their belief about proper sexual conduct.

An example of a conservative non dense JP protagonist is the mc of my pet is a holy maiden,the couple are just diabetes.

 

[DubstheDuke]

Interesting. Good to know.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Well, if that's what you believe, then I won't contest you with that.

Like what I said, I tried explaining that kind of prevalent stereotype, and it doesn't exist exclusively in Japanese LNs.

Besides, the term was 'Dense Japanese MC', but anyone who's experienced in reading online works know that it doesn't refer exclusively to that. It has become an umbrella term for seemingly 'weak', 'passive' and 'shy' characters in the world of online self-publishing.

I've never read the Beta-MC trope in anything that wasn't Japanese and Korean Manhua's are my preferred reading. The Chinese are obnoxiously nationalist and hypocritical. That and I find they are almost always the worst writers when compared to Japanese and Koreans. I don't read Japanese much anymore since I'm sick of the Beta-MC, which I never liked to begin with. That and their incessant insert of Justice this Justice that, when their idea of justice is wholly unrealistic. It's like White Knighting with steroids. Plus, that justice always seems to take a backseat when "power of friendship!!!!" comes into play, then suddenly justice isn't so clear cut anymore. That and I hate the friendship trope thing as well. Naruto broke me of anything Japanese due to being perhaps the worst offender of all the above except perhaps the Beta-MC trope. I have not and will not ever watch/read Boruto.

Koreans are nationalistic like the Chinese, but nowhere near to the same degree. I've never seen them have a Beta-MC. And (so far) I've avoided any power of friendship or white knighting trash. So I'm a very large supporter of Koreans being superior to any other Asian form of literature as far as LN/WN.

My only real gripe with Korean work is gawddamn do they know how to ruin romance!!! Experts at it. They normally fix it, but only after they've ruined it another time or two It's like a fetish for them.

 

[LostLibrarian]

I think one of the biggest problems isn't that those dense MCs exist, but that the denseness is often more the result of the story instead of the character.

e.g. Ichika from IS. I don't really have a problem with him being dense and not reacting to the girls advances, because it's made clear he sees them more as friends and less as women. But relatively early in the story, he actually discovers his feelings for Houki, wants to kiss her, is interrupted... and he doesn't do anything else for the next volumes. Bask to status quo.
At this point he isn't dense because of his character but dense, because the publisher still wants to tease the harem ending and sell more volumes and merch of the other girls. That's the moment a dense charactet becomes detrimental to the story.

A more positive outlook for a dense character would be Shiroe from Log Horizon. He has a reason for his dense behaviour (relatively few RL contacts), he shows the same problems in fields outside of romance, and in the end he develops, acknowledges his feelings and takes the next step. In core, both characters are dense, but one is driven by the character while the other is driven by the publisher.


And especially JP webnovels and light novels have a big problem with characters who are dense because the publisher wants to print three more volumes. Most of those harem MCs who'll pick the obvious girl at the end but because there isn't any good story besides girls drama, he has to be stupid so that he doesn't decide. Same for a lot of romance stories, who traditionally end with the first kiss, so they have to be stupid and never see the signs, so that a story worth 5 volumes can be printed over 10 with an underwhelming ending...

And I think that's why people got so tired of dense MCs and calling them beta. Because they acted that way without character or story reason. They just did to give unnecessary drama. And when people found chinese and korean web novels, who are often the extrem opposite, they despised those characters even more. So much, that "beta" and "dense" are more of a meme word without any meaning...

 

[Deleted member 29316]

I've never read the Beta-MC trope in anything that wasn't Japanese and Korean Manhua's are my preferred reading. The Chinese are obnoxiously nationalist and hypocritical. That and I find they are almost always the worst writers when compared to Japanese and Koreans. I don't read Japanese much anymore since I'm sick of the Beta-MC, which I never liked to begin with. That and their incessant insert of Justice this Justice that, when their idea of justice is wholly unrealistic. It's like White Knighting with steroids. Plus, that justice always seems to take a backseat when "power of friendship!!!!" comes into play, then suddenly justice isn't so clear cut anymore. That and I hate the friendship trope thing as well. Naruto broke me of anything Japanese due to being perhaps the worst offender of all the above except perhaps the Beta-MC trope. I have not and will not ever watch/read Boruto.

Koreans are nationalistic like the Chinese, but nowhere near to the same degree. I've never seen them have a Beta-MC. And (so far) I've avoided any power of friendship or white knighting trash. So I'm a very large supporter of Koreans being superior to any other Asian form of literature as far as LN/WN.

My only real gripe with Korean work is gawddamn do they know how to ruin romance!!! Experts at it. They normally fix it, but only after they've ruined it another time or two It's like a fetish for them.

Ah, I have to agree with the Koreans ruining romance. One of my biggest frustrations.

Oh and the nationalistic part can also be traced on their history and culture.

As for the Beta MC part, well, I'm talking here about the works where an MC displays a passive, shy behavior and he immediately gets the label 'Dense'/'Beta'.

I mean, I've read works (local and foreign) that has the slivers of that kind of personality (and not strictly the 'dense Japanese MC-type'), and the story turned out fine, with proper character development.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

I think one of the biggest problems isn't that those dense MCs exist, but that the denseness is often more the result of the story instead of the character.

e.g. Ichika from IS. I don't really have a problem with him being dense and not reacting to the girls advances, because it's made clear he sees them more as friends and less as women. But relatively early in the story, he actually discovers his feelings for Houki, wants to kiss her, is interrupted... and he doesn't do anything else for the next volumes. Bask to status quo.
At this point he isn't dense because of his character but dense, because the publisher still wants to tease the harem ending and sell more volumes and merch of the other girls. That's the moment a dense charactet becomes detrimental to the story.

A more positive outlook for a dense character would be Shiroe from Log Horizon. He has a reason for his dense behaviour (relatively few RL contacts), he shows the same problems in fields outside of romance, and in the end he develops, acknowledges his feelings and takes the next step. In core, both characters are dense, but one is driven by the character while the other is driven by the publisher.


And especially JP webnovels and light novels have a big problem with characters who are dense because the publisher wants to print three more volumes. Most of those harem MCs who'll pick the obvious girl at the end but because there isn't any good story besides girls drama, he has to be stupid so that he doesn't decide. Same for a lot of romance stories, who traditionally end with the first kiss, so they have to be stupid and never see the signs, so that a story worth 5 volumes can be printed over 10 with an underwhelming ending...

And I think that's why people got so tired of dense MCs and calling them beta. Because they acted that way without character or story reason. They just did to give unnecessary drama. And when people found chinese and korean web novels, who are often the extrem opposite, they despised those characters even more. So much, that "beta" and "dense" are more of a meme word without any meaning...

Interesting take on this issue.

Well, as I said, most authors get their characters' personalities on the culture they have (either they base it there, or base it contrary to the values they have). What I find amusing is that when a character displays certain passive personality, they get labeled as 'Dense'/'Beta'.

As for 'they were dense without reason', it's what the other thread reply is talking about: 'amateur writers dabbling on romance'.

And yeah, I do agree that everything that is too much is bad (and stale), including dense-ness. Like, man, where's the character development? ???

 

[gaylolis]

i think it's more because of it's popular and able to rake in more exposure and potential cash, that people wrote it.

even if it's based on their culture, i think the authors are free to write whatever characters they want.

some authors out there could be antisocial as fuck and hate their own culture and societal norms. they just want to come with something different. the reason you see them as exceptions was because these types were not popular. but well, once in a while you could see masterpieces from these guys like Invisible Dragon.

if i remembered correctly, there's the stigma within the japanese web novel community or something, that they would waifu the girls they love, and seeing the mc touching their girl would make them so fucking pissed, so the author would make the mc cuck himself.

 

[ForestDweller]

if i remembered correctly, there's the stigma within the japanese web novel community or something, that they would waifu the girls they love, and seeing the mc touching their girl would make them so fucking pissed, so the author would make the mc cuck himself.

I don't believe that.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

i think it's more because of it's popular and able to rake in more exposure and potential cash, that people wrote it.

even if it's based on their culture, i think the authors are free to write whatever characters they want.

some authors out there could be antisocial as fuck and hate their own culture and societal norms. they just want to come with something different. the reason you see them as exceptions was because these types were not popular. but well, once in a while you could see masterpieces from these guys like Invisible Dragon.

if i remembered correctly, there's the stigma within the japanese web novel community or something, that they would waifu the girls they love, and seeing the mc touching their girl would make them so fucking pissed, so the author would make the mc cuck himself.

Yeah, it's true that authors are free to write whatever they want, but the fact remains that they incorporate elements of their respective cultures and values on what they write, either consciously or unconsciously...and unless they researched well on another culture.

As you said, some hate their own societal norms, that's why they consciously try to break free from that. And that validates my point that culture and values influence one's work, it can be for the culture or against the culture.