Should secret bosses effect dungeon ratings?

[CountVanBadger]

Here's something I haven't been able to make my mind up about while editing XNPC. I've been giving dungeons levels according to the median of the monsters inside them. So if a dungeon has mobs that range from level 10 to level 20, the dungeon will be rated at level 15. But one dungeon they go to is filled with monsters that are level 20-25, and the heroes deliberately fail the quest in order to trigger a secret level 40 boss fight because it's worth more XP than all the smaller mobs combined. The boss fight is considered a punishment, and nobody except these guys would ever do that on purpose. So since it's a secret boss, how would that effect the dungeon's rating? Would it be rated according to the lower level monsters everybody's for sure going to fight, making it around level 23, or would it take into account the monster that 99% of them are never going to see, making it around level 30?

 

[Cipiteca396]

Apparently it depends on how your dungeons work, because my normal response would be "If the dungeon can spawn level 40 monsters, it's a level 40 dungeon." What if it just decides to unleash that secret boss for no reason? It's 'unfair'.

Whatever rules you as the author or whoever designs dungeons in-universe added to make things fair wouldn't allow something like that to happen. So, that same balancing should answer your question. Why and how do dungeons get their ratings?

If it's assigned by "The Guild" or something, then it depends on if they know about the secret boss. They'd probably give it something like "Level 23, but if you do the thing you aren't supposed to do, then 40+."

If it's determined by the Gods or something, they probably just wouldn't allow it to happen that way in the first place.

I vaguely remember your story is set inside a video game though, so it would probably be determined by the developers... They probably wouldn't let the secret boss be beatable. It would do a cutscene kill or something. If it was intentionally beatable, then it would just be a normal part of the dungeon, or perhaps part of a Hell Mode or a second dungeon inside the dungeon with a different rating. They wouldn't want to scare players by tacking on ten levels to a newbie dungeon, but they also wouldn't want to betray players by not warning them in any way or punish them for being bad at their fun game. It's just bad business. The only solace is that they can just respawn if they die. Right?

 

[CharlesEBrown]

If the level is based on public knowledge, the secret boss would, at MOST, give it a plus one or two, to show that sometimes, something beyond the expected skill level of the dungeon happens, but they're not sure what.
Otherwise, it should be rated at the minimum level an L40 creature could normally be encountered (i.e. assuming D&D type rules, though those topped out at 16+ in earlier editions, a "Level 40" monster would probably be a very, very rare thing in a level 30 dungeon. an average foe in a level 40 dungeon and a commonplace creature in a level 50, so 30 would be the assigned level).

 

[L1aei]

Here's something I haven't been able to make my mind up about while editing XNPC. I've been giving dungeons levels according to the median of the monsters inside them. So if a dungeon has mobs that range from level 10 to level 20, the dungeon will be rated at level 15. But one dungeon they go to is filled with monsters that are level 20-25, and the heroes deliberately fail the quest in order to trigger a secret level 40 boss fight because it's worth more XP than all the smaller mobs combined. The boss fight is considered a punishment, and nobody except these guys would ever do that on purpose. So since it's a secret boss, how would that effect the dungeon's rating? Would it be rated according to the lower level monsters everybody's for sure going to fight, making it around level 23, or would it take into account the monster that 99% of them are never going to see, making it around level 30?

You might be able to work around this by having a single room count as a "secret dungeon" to keep the two CRs apart. Or is not possible?

 

[Arkus86]

If the secret boss is known, and has known and avoidable trigger conditions, you can rate the dungeon around the regular monsters, but add a second rating for the boss specifically as a warning.
If the trigger condition is not known, but encounters are rare, you can do the same.
If you do not have enough data to say how common secret boss encounters are (recently discovered dungeon, too few recorded runs...), it would be better to rate the dungeon around the boss.

And if the secret boss is still secret, you can't rate the dungeon around him, but if it causes too many parties to disappear inside the dungeon (thus being unable to report meeting the boss - they are dead), rising the overall rating makes sense.

I vaguely remember your story is set inside a video game though, so it would probably be determined by the developers... They probably wouldn't let the secret boss be beatable. It would do a cutscene kill or something. If it was intentionally beatable, then it would just be a normal part of the dungeon, or perhaps part of a Hell Mode or a second dungeon inside the dungeon with a different rating. They wouldn't want to scare players by tacking on ten levels to a newbie dungeon, but they also wouldn't want to betray players by not warning them in any way or punish them for being bad at their fun game. It's just bad business. The only solace is that they can just respawn if they die. Right?

I mean, many players also love challenge. It might not be the best option for a newbie dungeon, but exploring new dungeon and figuring out every mechanic with careful observation and a lot of trial and error is bread and butter of competitive PvE guilds. And as the game progresses, what was once an end-game dungeon, will eventually become just your regular Tuesday mid-level grind.

 

[Cipiteca396]

I mean, many players also love challenge. It might not be the best option for a newbie dungeon, but exploring new dungeon and figuring out every mechanic with careful observation and a lot of trial and error is bread and butter of competitive PvE guilds. And as the game progresses, what was once an end-game dungeon, will eventually become just your regular Tuesday mid-level grind.

Exactly. The moment someone found out about a secret boss, it would become a normal part of the dungeon that's constantly being grinded. Like the Cow level in Diablo.

 

[DismaiNaim]

Here's something I haven't been able to make my mind up about while editing XNPC. I've been giving dungeons levels according to the median of the monsters inside them. So if a dungeon has mobs that range from level 10 to level 20, the dungeon will be rated at level 15. But one dungeon they go to is filled with monsters that are level 20-25, and the heroes deliberately fail the quest in order to trigger a secret level 40 boss fight because it's worth more XP than all the smaller mobs combined. The boss fight is considered a punishment, and nobody except these guys would ever do that on purpose. So since it's a secret boss, how would that effect the dungeon's rating? Would it be rated according to the lower level monsters everybody's for sure going to fight, making it around level 23, or would it take into account the monster that 99% of them are never going to see, making it around level 30?

At the end of the day, you're writing a story that you want to pull your audience in.

Having little moments like "why is this happening" build great tension, like "I thought this was a level 10 dungeon, why are we fighting level 20 monsters wtf?" Is a legitimate question. That's the kind of thing that keeps readers engaged

 

[StenDuring]

Define 'secret'. No, really.

You have something that's putting labels on the dungeon. Is it a secret to this something as well? If not then observant dungeon-crawlers should notice that something is off and make the educated guess that there's something more inside.