Empathy, Even When It's Tough

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OtherSlater

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To write a truly compelling narrative the most important tool is empathy. Art isn't always kind, sweet. I don't make kind and sweet things (mostly) because I come from a dark place in my head when I write. Ultraviolence was birthed from the anger I felt form... institutions. Seeing other people enact vigilante justice on predators. This constant cycle of violence. It's not easy, but it's real. It's real and I see it every day. This violence. Hurt people hurt people. You learn to try to understand, to empathize. You talk to the women around what the men in their lives do. You talk to Minorites about their experiences. You write your truth, and make sure you do your research. And most importantly, learn with an open heart. Everyone on this earth has a story, a truth to tell. And when they don't have the ability to tell it, I hope you will instead.
 

ShrimpShady

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One of my favorite stories of all time is the anime/manga 3-gatsu no Lion, and a big reason why is just how radically empathetic it is. Every single character is heard and their stories considered, even when they're not the best of people. It might even get uncomfortable sometimes, seeing abusive characters humanized and not one-sidedly demonized, but it's something I greatly respect about the series. People are a mess.

Kinda changed the way I live my life and interact with people, always trying to see the good in them first and foremost (although my empathy definitely has limits that have been greatly tested lately) :blob_hmm:
 

Hans.Trondheim

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One of my favorite stories of all time is the anime/manga 3-gatsu no Lion, and a big reason why is just how radically empathetic it is. Every single character is heard and their stories considered, even when they're not the best of people. It might even get uncomfortable sometimes, seeing abusive characters humanized and not one-sidedly demonized, but it's something I greatly respect about the series. People are a mess.

Kinda changed the way I live my life and interact with people, always trying to see the good in them first and foremost (although my empathy definitely has limits that have been greatly tested lately) :blob_hmm:
We can be kind, and we can defend our limits at the same time. Too much idealism is poisonous, and would eventually sap you if you let anyone cross your boundaries.

Coz really, humans have a tendency to grab a mile when you let them take an inch.
 

L1aei

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To write a truly compelling narrative the most important tool is empathy. Art isn't always kind, sweet. I don't make kind and sweet things (mostly) because I come from a dark place in my head when I write. Ultraviolence was birthed from the anger I felt form... institutions. Seeing other people enact vigilante justice on predators. This constant cycle of violence. It's not easy, but it's real. It's real and I see it every day. This violence. Hurt people hurt people. You learn to try to understand, to empathize. You talk to the women around what the men in their lives do. You talk to Minorites about their experiences. You write your truth, and make sure you do your research. And most importantly, learn with an open heart. Everyone on this earth has a story, a truth to tell. And when they don't have the ability to tell it, I hope you will instead.

Yeah... I projected a LOT in my old, original novels. But the current ones? My fanfictions? Yeah, at least two of them have artificial intelligence being the protagonist. I can't really empathize with clankers. And, yes, they were legit clankers; droids and CIS systems from Star Wars. :sweat_smile:
 

Avarice_Of_The_Seven

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Chunnibyou God Of Supremacy raised his head as he lazily read this thread and all its comments.

Chunnibyou God tilted his head a little and asked himself.

'Empathy? What is that? Can you eat it?'

But since the debate was related to stories, Chunnibyou God stopped questioning his own capacity for empathy. And instead began looking for empathy in stories.

But that was when his hand suddenly froze, staying still on the keyboard as the Chunnibyou God unblinkingly stared at his screen.

In front of him was the title Reverend Insanity, standing at the pinnacle of all Web Novels.

After looking at it blankly for a few moments, the Chunnibyou God closed his eyes and let out a tired sigh.

'This one may never understand humans.'
 

Omarfaruq

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Chunnibyou God Of Supremacy raised his head as he lazily read this thread and all its comments.

Chunnibyou God tilted his head a little and asked himself.

'Empathy? What is that? Can you eat it?'

But since the debate was related to stories, Chunnibyou God stopped questioning his own capacity for empathy. And instead began looking for empathy in stories.

But that was when his hand suddenly froze, staying still on the keyboard as the Chunnibyou God unblinkingly stared at his screen.

In front of him was the title Reverend Insanity, standing at the pinnacle of all Web Novels.

After looking at it blankly for a few moments, the Chunnibyou God closed his eyes and let out a tired sigh.

'This one may never understand humans.'
Umm reverend insanity and empathy can't be placed in the same sentence.
 

L1aei

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I remember those days of yore.
An ancient era of when I too was a teenager, plagued with the 2edgy5me virus. :blob_pat_sad:

Yeah, the turn of the century. I was in high school when I started seeing classmates with very rough looking wrists and forearms; not the scars of somebody trying to take their life, but really messed up like it was an imitation. I had no idea what the hell that was about until a few years later, then I understood. :blob_frown:
 

OtherSlater

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Yeah, the turn of the century. I was in high school when I started seeing classmates with very rough looking wrists and forearms; not the scars of somebody trying to take their life, but really messed up like it was an imitation. I had no idea what the hell that was about until a few years later, then I understood. :blob_frown:
Isn't it crazy? Like talking to people and understanding a world you never knew existed. My partner has BPD. It took me so long to truly get the grasp on things, even then I don't know it all. What pushes a person to cope in such a way? What pushes anyone to take their own life? The first step is always empathy.
 

L1aei

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Isn't it crazy? Like talking to people and understanding a world you never knew existed. My partner has BPD. It took me so long to truly get the grasp on things, even then I don't know it all. What pushes a person to cope in such a way? What pushes anyone to take their own life? The first step is always empathy.

Please tell me they don't experience identity blur too.
 

DoodTheMan

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Personally, unless the story I'm reading is specifically about a cruel/vengeful person, I find I am reading with the expectation that my protagonist is empathetic to a fault. I've read several manga/manhwa/web novels where the protagonist coldly executes a villain upon their first encounter, specifically so that they can't come back to get revenge in the future, and I find it both a little icky and off-putting, as well as just very uninteresting because removing a character from your story so quickly who has the potential to grow later seems a bit short-sighted.
 

Eldoria

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My second FMC is a lens (POV) into how authors (and readers) empathize within a fictional world. Read the synopsis and see who the second FMC is defending and for what motive.
Gifts from Detective Clara
Synopsis:
In the Rose Kingdom, where the law has lost its conscience and crime has become a spectacle, a young detective girl stands before the court, embracing the victim.

Clara, a young detective known for her unwavering conscience in the face of power, has brought corrupt nobles, rapists, and murderers to justice. The people praise her as the voice of society.

But behind the applause, a figure has emerged who has shaken the kingdom—the Blood Rose Princess, a serial killer who has crucified nobles with roses and blood. She left a bloody message:

"When the law is dead, I will be the law. Blood for blood."

Dragged by her conscience, Clara tries to catch that serial killer, but catching her uncovers the darkest secrets the world has hidden.

In the bitter truth, gifts come in the most honest form. Because not all justice is meant to be black and white... and justice sometimes dances with roses and blood.
 
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Shorgoth

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I'll be blunt for the sake of clarity. Know that I'm not saying this to accuse you or attack you, but I want to make you think about your behaviour explicitly. You do not owe me or anyone else explanations; this is simply an exercise in reflection for yourself. I don't know your intent in this limited text, without tone of voice. I'm approaching this with the tone of an old man with a lot of resolved trauma who issues a warning about post-traumatic behaviours that happen a lot and that I see the shadow of in your speech, though I might be misreading it. I truly hope I am, because otherwise you will have a lot of soul searching to do before you get through your pain. I had to get through similar missconceptions younger myself and they were hurting my chances of getting past trauma. I talk from the height of 30 years in therapy and have been actively studying psychology and sociology actively, specifically in the field of trauma, irrational belief systems (how we trick ourselves into bad conceptions of reality due to evolutionary biases) and violence. I do not have absolute truth on these matters, but I do have some measures of clarity.

You don't seem to have any empathy for men who have also been victims, as you explicitely pointing toward anyone but us as potential victims. This type of selective empathy hurts people. My body is covered in scars, lost 1/3 of a lung. My aggressors were both men and women; the difference was that none of the women who abused me physically and sexually were ever punished, because the same attitude prevailed in most of society. That unipolar view on victimhood is shielding a lot of abusers and making a lot of victims vulnerable. One thing that I hope you'll learn one day is that the vast majority of men also deserve your empathy. Even if your aggressors might have been men, that adversarial zero-sum sexist approach to victimhood and abusers is part of the issue, creating more abusers. Mysandrists and misogynists create each other; it's an epidemiological chain that needs to be stopped by the victims themselves. It sucks to have to be the grown-up, believe m,e I know intimately how easy it is to hate. I'm not saying be nice to your aggressors, I'm saying don't paint all of their demographic under the same broad brush and don't think women can't be as bad or are magically saints.

I'm saying make this about behaviours, not gender specific, because you propagate a skewed interpretation of reality that harms a lot of people through stereotypes and not just men. It's something I had to learn myself and deconstruct for a long time. I grew up in a family without a father due to his death. From a young age, I've been told atrocious things by the women around my mother, things like "all men should be put in concentration camps from age 16 because they ****" I've been told that when I was 10... it never stopped since. I'm smart enough to differentiate those women from all women... I hope you can do the same with men. If you want allies in the fight against injustices, you can't expect allyship to be unidirectional; you need to learn to be an ally in return to other people who have been hurt that are not like you physically. We don't choose our birth; we choose how we behave, and unjust hate is a choice.

Now, if you know all this already, truly know emotionally, not just rationally, then please adjust your speech because it is honestly hurtful when all you get is hatred for your gender. Yes men often lack good models, but they are also not offered a way to be human by society, it's a lot of confusing opposite expectations that are thrown at us from a young age, while emotions are actively repressed through harassment and violence, it creates unstable men with poor ego and emotional control, because this too, is a source of trauma. This constant bombardment frames us strictly as abusers and never the victims and never the heroes. How many names of men who fought for feminism who were killed and maimed do you know? There have been many... yet we don't hear about them because this framing is made to divide, it is made to make equality impossible, so allies in the dominant demographic get erased to serve an "us vs them" agenda used to divide and, more often than not, exploit wealth from the masses in impunity. Most men don't want to dominate or hurt women, and a lot put their lives in peril to aid. It's well past time that those efforts are recognized; that way, we can all fight abusers together and not apart. The same way abusing women needs to be called out in the same way when their victims are men. Behaviours, not gender...

You might be interested in looking up my novel... while the protagonist is a woman, it speaks of my own traumas through allegories and how I healed through all this crap... though fair warning, it's raw and with real violence, not diluted or heroic. It's also a slow burn and it's unfinished for now... and I'm slow writing it... But if you do read, you'll see that our experiences might not be so dissimilar emotionally.
 
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OtherSlater

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I'll be blunt for the sake of clarity. Know that I'm not saying this to accuse you or attack you, but I want to make you think about your behaviour explicitly. You do not owe me or anyone else explanations; this is simply an exercise in reflection for yourself. I don't know your intent in this limited text, without tone of voice. I'm approaching this with the tone of an old man with a lot of resolved trauma who issues a warning about post-traumatic behaviours that happen a lot and that I see the shadow of in your speech, though I might be misreading it. I truly hope I am, because otherwise you will have a lot of soul searching to do before you get through your pain. I had to get through similar missconceptions younger myself and they were hurting my chances of getting past trauma. I talk from the height of 30 years in therapy and have been actively studying psychology and sociology actively, specifically in the field of trauma, irrational belief systems (how we trick ourselves into bad conceptions of reality due to evolutionary biases) and violence. I do not have absolute truth on these matters, but I do have some measures of clarity.

You don't seem to have any empathy for men who have also been victims, as you explicitely pointing toward anyone but us as potential victims. This type of selective empathy hurts people. My body is covered in scars, lost 1/3 of a lung. My aggressors were both men and women; the difference was that none of the women who abused me physically and sexually were ever punished, because the same attitude prevailed in most of society. That unipolar view on victimhood is shielding a lot of abusers and making a lot of victims vulnerable. One thing that I hope you'll learn one day is that the vast majority of men also deserve your empathy. Even if your aggressors might have been men, that adversarial zero-sum sexist approach to victimhood and abusers is part of the issue, creating more abusers. Mysandrists and misogynists create each other; it's an epidemiological chain that needs to be stopped by the victims themselves. It sucks to have to be the grown-up, believe m,e I know intimately how easy it is to hate. I'm not saying be nice to your aggressors, I'm saying don't paint all of their demographic under the same broad brush and don't think women can't be as bad or are magically saints.

I'm saying make this about behaviours, not gender specific, because you propagate a skewed interpretation of reality that harms a lot of people through stereotypes and not just men. It's something I had to learn myself and deconstruct for a long time. I grew up in a family without a father due to his death. From a young age, I've been told atrocious things by the women around my mother, things like "all men should be put in concentration camps from age 16 because they ****" I've been told that when I was 10... it never stopped since. I'm smart enough to differentiate those women from all women... I hope you can do the same with men. If you want allies in the fight against injustices, you can't expect allyship to be unidirectional; you need to learn to be an ally in return to other people who have been hurt that are not like you physically. We don't choose our birth; we choose how we behave, and unjust hate is a choice.

Now, if you know all this already, truly know emotionally, not just rationally, then please adjust your speech because it is honestly hurtful when all you get is hatred for your gender. Yes men often lack good models, but they are also not offered a way to be human by society, it's a lot of confusing opposite expectations that are thrown at us from a young age, while emotions are actively repressed through harassment and violence, it creates unstable men with poor ego and emotional control, because this too, is a source of trauma. This constant bombardment frames us strictly as abusers and never the victims and never the heroes. How many names of men who fought for feminism who were killed and maimed do you know? There have been many... yet we don't hear about them because this framing is made to divide, it is made to make equality impossible, so allies in the dominant demographic get erased to serve an "us vs them" agenda used to divide and, more often than not, exploit wealth from the masses in impunity. Most men don't want to dominate or hurt women, and a lot put their lives in peril to aid. It's well past time that those efforts are recognized; that way, we can all fight abusers together and not apart. The same way abusing women needs to be called out in the same way when their victims are men. Behaviours, not gender...

You might be interested in looking up my novel... while the protagonist is a woman, it speaks of my own traumas through allegories and how I healed through all this crap... though fair warning, it's raw and with real violence, not diluted or heroic. It's also a slow burn and it's unfinished for now... and I'm slow writing it... But if you do read, you'll see that our experiences might not be so dissimilar emotionally.
The problem alot of you do is you use men's issues as a rebuttal, not to spread awareness. I used a few examples of the usually affect peoples in my experiences. You assumed so much about me for simply not saying men. Duh, I empathize with men. You're using men's issues as some weird put down from my simple post about exercising empathy for minorities in WRITING because HISTORICALLY women were used as tools and meat to attract men, and minorities were used for tokens at best and laughing stocks at worst. I won't get into the gender talk with you, this ain't the time or place, and you grown enough to hopefully realize there's a word for what you're doing here. Just stick to writing in this discussion.
 

FRWriter

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I like to create as many different characters with many different personalities and motivations as I can. I don't think an author should project his morality or personality into his story, and characters should make it about empathy. In fact I'd say that severely limits you as an author because it essentially locks you in a very narrow genre. It's okay to do that sometimes, but doing it in every story? That would erase a lot of stories that are twisted, yet also masterpieces.

Especially if we're talking about Webnovels and stories that are hosted here, people just want to escape reality and have some fun without getting preached to.

I respect people with a noble cause that genuinely want to spread positivity and maybe even educate people, but personally, I just want to create a story that some people enjoy and can use to escape their real life just for a few minutes.
 
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