Determining the Optimal Level of Overpoweredness: Is It Possible?

[SternenklarenRitter]

You still need "conflict" that can challenge your protagonist even if they are nearly invincible. Being overpowered doesn't make this especially hard, but it does prevent obvious, direct, external dangers from filling this role. There are a couple ways to do this, for example your protagonist's conflict could be psychologic or internal. Maybe they are crippled by grief, anxiety or depression. Their conflict could stem from their power, for example if using their power burns their lifespan or something. Maybe their power is enough that they can reasonably assume nothing can kill them, but not enough to easily protect the things or people they hold important. Maybe their power is nearly invincible, but highly specialized, for example I remember a manga where the protagonist could stop time at no cost for as long as he pleased, but still had the strength and resilliance of a human civilian. He defeated a huge golem by stopping time for several months and slowly chiseling it down with a mining pick.

 

[Deleted member 76176]

Nowadays slice of life comes with op ness too ...

Well, they are still mundane and everyday characters. The OPness doesn’t play a major role in the plot outside of the setting, which for a slice of life story doesn’t have an overarching plot.

 

[Midnight-Phantom]

let’s say his ability is to meld metal together, or perhaps restructure atoms in molecules.

He can become OP as he learns how to restructure stronger molecules or perhaps make weapons. Etc.

The ability doesn’t evolve, his mind and ability to use more knowledge evolves.

So acquiring new knowledge and applying them while keeping future progression in mind .. as max-out mana manipulation be used created to mana crystals or in the future a dungeon core to bind a soul to it?

As long as it's logical, then it's enough.

For example, a lot of JPN authors--when they are confronted by the question "what makes your MC lovable?", they would give half-assed reasons like...

"This guy told me I'm cute," -Girl A

Seriously, in real life, no one will fall for you if you tell someone they are cute. Moreover, they'd think you're a creep.

How do we make it logical? What makes your character worthy of his powers?

Example: MC A is worthy of the god powers of the deity who supported him because when he was a child he--alone--maintained and supported the nearly forgotten shrine of the said god. Even risking the ridicule of others who follow a 'stronger' deity, that in the end, the rest of the heavens admired his dedication and decided to give him a taste of their power.

I think, with that action, even mere humans would give him their support if MC A decides to give them similar treatment.

Cool thought .. gotta write it down ..

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Talent comes in the op category too no? how does a photographic memory sound in a scenario when you can vividly remember spell formation things? or alcamy > ?? that's op .. or a special body that can do special stuff ..

What is OP and what is not OP depends solely on the setting. Let's say you write about magic academy, where majority of students should study and remember different things. Formulas, theories, etc. In such scenario, MC having a photographic memory is OP. Because it makes him better than anyone in his current setting. Now, what if your MC is an extremely talented fencer? It's in no way OP because it has no relation to alchemy or magic.

So, let's imagine we have a setting. Magic academy. MC is a student in that academy. MC is mediocre in terms of studying, but MC has a talent for fencing, and is an exceptional fencer. MC has to get good grades at the following tests that consists mostly of memorization. Now, tell me, what is more interesting. MC has or acquires a photographic memory and simply memorizes everything and eventually ends up on top of those tests? OR, MC will spend his time on making cheat sheets, bribing teachers or asking for help from students who are smarter, and use a different type of intelligence to arrive at the top? In my opinion, actually seeing how MC on his own works towards the goal is more interesting, and if you are an author, it can give you more options to work with.

 

[Seaspecter]

The trick is to make the opness mostly irrelevant to the plot. Basically have most of your character's interactions have nothing to do with their power level then on occasion have them vaporize some mooks for fun.

 

[Midnight-Phantom]

I mean, I wouldn't advise using every angle mentioned here-- there's a bunch of different ways to make an OP MC interesting, and you don't need to use them all, and some of them actively conflict with each other to some extent.

What's your story about, other than the MC being OP?

I would keep in mind .. simple progression in the sense of how a said skill can be used in a society where brut force tends to regain supreme.. like people in the world using wood magic to facilitate the growth of food .. but mc will use multiple magic like eath to mend ground, life to tend the plant, water to nourish the plant in the same way it would but as mana infused it would work better, and simple mana to facilitate growth as whole not just using wood magic to pump up the plant .. with it his own growth as he would come to a world with mana and such, how he would navigate new parents, new values in life, how being a powerful person feel like instead a one with no power .. how to stand up for his values .. sutch ..

 

[Chaos_Sinner777]

Absolute power. Just, more prone to meddling than overwhelming everything. "Sure I could rip that dragon apart molecule by molecule, but wouldn't it be fun to raise up a local to be a Hero and Slay the Dragon instead?"

 

[Tempokai]

but that would make seem like he is the most powerful being in creation ..

That's why you design the enemies to be interesting as possible, with the hero solving them in interesting way. If the plot is more about the interactions or emotions or whatever, not action, you can even skip the battle scenes because you know that the MC is OP, readers know that too. This manhwa https://realmscans.com/m050523/series/chronicles-of-a-returner/ is a great example of it

Sure, MC can have a limitations (let's say, OP in magic and bad at physical), then you write the baddies to have some counter (read as competent) to the whatever, but then it isn't OP from the start.

 

[BlackKnightX]

What do you like to read? Choose that one.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

What exactly do you want to write?
I remember a novel called Trafford's Trading Club - I didn't read it far because I heard it got worse in the future - and the mc there was practically omnipotent. But it was a good story anyway, up till where I read it. Why? Because this story was not about mc being OP, but about OP mc being - in the settings where he was.
There's this niche little known story called Overlord. The mc there, Ainz Ooal Gown, is for all intents and purposes, undefeatable. He's the strongest to be there, apart from some characters that venerate him like he's a god. And it's still a good story. Why? For many reasons, really. Amazing world building, good drama and comedy, memorable and rich characters... Even if it is a story of one bony boi rolling over the newbs. Because the story is never about will Ainz somehow end up making a 10000iq 4D chess move that will majorly propell him and Nazarick towards world domination - of course he will - it's about how he'll do it.
I suppose the lesson here is that when you make a character that for all intents and purposes cannot lose, it's the same as you taking the world you made, taking all the settings you have, and all the characters, and having the main character act like he's a child in the arcade, or a theme park. He'll play, he'll have fun, but he will not challenge it. He's the guide to the world, an existence that has to act more interestingly and show layers to the rest of the story than being its centerpiece.
Basically, you give mc god mode cheats when you don't want him to go through the paces a shounen mc would go through.

This is also for characters who are "technically beatable but not really", where there is absolutely no suspense of will the character fail or not.
One such example is Supreme Soaring Immortal (or maybe other xianxia like this but it's one of my favourites, which is why I mention it). Mc there will never fail. You can tell. From the very beginning you can see she is not playing this game with the rest of the plebs, she's playing with the game. She takes the settings the author made and takes a stroll along them and makes fun things with them.

So making mc "unbeatable" is for when you don't want any beating to take up a significant place in the story in the first place. Obviously, it goes for less direct expressions of power too. Stuff like academic achievememts, financial strength, charisma - depends on settings.

If mc is beatable - then it's up to you but I like it when there is [an] antagonist who will give your character a run for his money. And maybe a setting that will put him through the paces.
One of my favourite stories like this is The Ancestor of our sect isn't acting like an elder!
Xu Qilin is one of the strongest characters right off the bat, but it doesn't feel like it at all. There is always some malicious actor plotting something that will turn detrimental to her, or the very setting - her being an elder of a martial arts sect when the crown wants control over the rivers and lakes, will somehow get in her way (or rather her getting in the way and doing the best to not be driven over like a Japanese isekai protagonist in first chapter of most stories)

 

[Midnight-Phantom]

You still need "conflict" that can challenge your protagonist even if they are nearly invincible. Being overpowered doesn't make this especially hard, but it does prevent obvious, direct, external dangers from filling this role. There are a couple ways to do this, for example your protagonist's conflict could be psychologic or internal. Maybe they are crippled by grief, anxiety or depression. Their conflict could stem from their power, for example if using their power burns their lifespan or something. Maybe their power is enough that they can reasonably assume nothing can kill them, but not enough to easily protect the things or people they hold important. Maybe their power is nearly invincible, but highly specialized, for example I remember a manga where the protagonist could stop time at no cost for as long as he pleased, but still had the strength and resilliance of a human civilian. He defeated a huge golem by stopping time for several months and slowly chiseling it down with a mining pick.

So not a perfect guy .. cool .. some restrictions.. cool... like an immortal but after coming back have to start from scratch thing .. cool .. a guy stopping a golem for months to chiselling it down with a mining pick .. I think for resources? too mutch cool ..

 

[Shard]

You still need "conflict" that can challenge your protagonist even if they are nearly invincible. Being overpowered doesn't make this especially hard, but it does prevent obvious, direct, external dangers from filling this role. There are a couple ways to do this, for example your protagonist's conflict could be psychologic or internal. Maybe they are crippled by grief, anxiety or depression. Their conflict could stem from their power, for example if using their power burns their lifespan or something. Maybe their power is enough that they can reasonably assume nothing can kill them, but not enough to easily protect the things or people they hold important. Maybe their power is nearly invincible, but highly specialized, for example I remember a manga where the protagonist could stop time at no cost for as long as he pleased, but still had the strength and resilliance of a human civilian. He defeated a huge golem by stopping time for several months and slowly chiseling it down with a mining pick.

This one reminds me of a story I read ages ago, though I forgot the name. The MC eventually got a kind of symbiotic armor thing that let them revive after death, but the cost was that someone they loved would unavoidably die for each time they avoided death. And of course, they didn't know that at first, so it really screwed them up when they learned, as they had let people kill them for money, among other things.

 

[Midnight-Phantom]

Well, they are still mundane and everyday characters. The OPness doesn’t play a major role in the plot outside of the setting, which for a slice of life story doesn’t have an overarching plot.

gotta enjoy stories like that tho kinda like

Isekai Nonbiri Nouka .. ​

What is OP and what is not OP depends solely on the setting. Let's say you write about magic academy, where majority of students should study and remember different things. Formulas, theories, etc. In such scenario, MC having a photographic memory is OP. Because it makes him better than anyone in his current setting. Now, what if your MC is an extremely talented fencer? It's in no way OP because it has no relation to alchemy or magic.

So, let's imagine we have a setting. Magic academy. MC is a student in that academy. MC is mediocre in terms of studying, but MC has a talent for fencing, and is an exceptional fencer. MC has to get good grades at the following tests that consists mostly of memorization. Now, tell me, what is more interesting. MC has or acquires a photographic memory and simply memorizes everything and eventually ends up on top of those tests? OR, MC will spend his time on making cheat sheets, bribing teachers or asking for help from students who are smarter, and use a different type of intelligence to arrive at the top? In my opinion, actually seeing how MC on his own works towards the goal is more interesting, and if you are an author, it can give you more options to work with.

Good plot bro for an academy setting ..

The trick is to make the opness mostly irrelevant to the plot. Basically have most of your character's interactions have nothing to do with their power level then on occasion have them vaporize some mooks for fun.

That's exactly what I am going for tho .. but kind of in a bind to make them op from the start or not? he can be a god for example but stay in a village do mostly mundane stuff, helps around here and there, but sometimes go for a stroll in the multiverse..

Absolute power. Just, more prone to meddling than overwhelming everything. "Sure I could rip that dragon apart molecule by molecule, but wouldn't it be fun to raise up a local to be a Hero and Slay the Dragon instead?"

or make the dragon a friend and educate it about the hardships of mortals, so it would not just burn a village to the ground for a warm napping place .. or give him a whole lot of cookies backed in village bakery to value them ..

What exactly do you want to write?
I remember a novel called Trafford's Trading Club - I didn't read it far because I heard it got worse in the future - and the mc there was practically omnipotent. But it was a good story anyway, up till where I read it. Why? Because this story was not about mc being OP, but about OP mc being - in the settings where he was.
There's this niche little known story called Overlord. The mc there, Ainz Ooal Gown, is for all intents and purposes, undefeatable. He's the strongest to be there, apart from some characters that venerate him like he's a god. And it's still a good story. Why? For many reasons, really. Amazing world building, good drama and comedy, memorable and rich characters... Even if it is a story of one bony boi rolling over the newbs. Because the story is never about will Ainz somehow end up making a 10000iq 4D chess move that will majorly propell him and Nazarick towards world domination - of course he will - it's about how he'll do it.
I suppose the lesson here is that when you make a character that for all intents and purposes cannot lose, it's the same as you taking the world you made, taking all the settings you have, and all the characters, and having the main character act like he's a child in the arcade, or a theme park. He'll play, he'll have fun, but he will not challenge it. He's the guide to the world, an existence that has to act more interestingly and show layers to the rest of the story than being its centerpiece.
Basically, you give mc god mode cheats when you don't want him to go through the paces a shounen mc would go through.

This is also for characters who are "technically beatable but not really", where there is absolutely no suspense of will the character fail or not.
One such example is Supreme Soaring Immortal (or maybe other xianxia like this but it's one of my favourites, which is why I mention it). Mc there will never fail. You can tell. From the very beginning you can see she is not playing this game with the rest of the plebs, she's playing with the game. She takes the settings the author made and takes a stroll along them and makes fun things with them.

So making mc "unbeatable" is for when you don't want any beating to take up a significant place in the story in the first place. Obviously, it goes for less direct expressions of power too. Stuff like academic achievememts, financial strength, charisma - depends on settings.

If mc is beatable - then it's up to you but I like it when there is [an] antagonist who will give your character a run for his money. And maybe a setting that will put him through the paces.
One of my favourite stories like this is The Ancestor of our sect isn't acting like an elder!
Xu Qilin is one of the strongest characters right off the bat, but it doesn't feel like it at all. There is always some malicious actor plotting something that will turn detrimental to her, or the very setting - her being an elder of a martial arts sect when the crown wants control over the rivers and lakes, will somehow get in her way (or rather her getting in the way and doing the best to not be driven over like a Japanese isekai protagonist in first chapter of most stories)

So a situation that even being op is difficult to tackle, that can be for any reason .. either for too much hassle from MC's perspective or literally not solvable like in theory if you are the personification of creation but destruction always gives you a headache.. and nihility gives you stare some times .. but you can't do anything as concept incarnate all of you are needed in nexus of void and the cycle must continue ..

 

[ThrillingHuman]

So a situation that even being op is difficult to tackle to that can be for any reason .. either for too much hassle from MC's perspective or literally not solvable like in theory if you are the personification of creation but destruction always gives you a headache.. and nihility gives you stare some times .. but you can't do anything as concept incarnate all of you are needed in nexus of void and the cycle must continue ..

verily, verily, I wish I understood what you just wrote.

 

[Seaspecter]

That's exactly what I am going for tho .. but kind of in a bind to make them op from the start or not? he can be a god for example but stay in a village do mostly mundane stuff, helps around here and there, but sometimes go for a stroll in the multiverse..

Do it from the start but you can't have them waving their power around constantly make some kind of plot point that they don't want to like they just want to fit in or something or they might break the universe I've seen that work.

 

[Midnight-Phantom]

verily, verily, I wish I understood what you just wrote.

Simple multiverse politics 101 for concepts .. truly jarring .. I kinda feel bad to even pointing that out...

Do it from the start but you can't have them waving their power around constantly make some kind of plot point that they don't want to like they just want to fit in or something or they might break the universe I've seen that work.

I will try tho .. like someone who wants to live in without much power struggle, not like cultivation mc s...

 

[Sola-sama]

What is OP and what is not OP depends solely on the setting. Let's say you write about magic academy, where majority of students should study and remember different things. Formulas, theories, etc. In such scenario, MC having a photographic memory is OP. Because it makes him better than anyone in his current setting. Now, what if your MC is an extremely talented fencer? It's in no way OP because it has no relation to alchemy or magic.

So, let's imagine we have a setting. Magic academy. MC is a student in that academy. MC is mediocre in terms of studying, but MC has a talent for fencing, and is an exceptional fencer. MC has to get good grades at the following tests that consists mostly of memorization. Now, tell me, what is more interesting. MC has or acquires a photographic memory and simply memorizes everything and eventually ends up on top of those tests? OR, MC will spend his time on making cheat sheets, bribing teachers or asking for help from students who are smarter, and use a different type of intelligence to arrive at the top? In my opinion, actually seeing how MC on his own works towards the goal is more interesting, and if you are an author, it can give you more options to work with.

These are great points, and I want to expand on this idea.

My novel's theme is 'Immortal Killing.
Note that there are all sorts of immortality.
My mc is immortal in a sense that he has Indestructible Soul. Without a certain method that specialized in destroying soul, he would simply switch bodies when he dies. Now then, there's another character that possessed another type of immortality which is biological immortality. The second immortal simply cannot die through natural means (age, hunger, etc etc).

Now then, in a certain sense, these two characters are OP, but to me, what makes it interesting is when two or more op character fight/scheme against each other, not just a Last Boss wiping the floor using mobs. As 'The Incredibles' have stated: "When everyone is super, no one is.". If you make multiple characters having op abilities (e.g. taking skills by devouring others, immortality, time travel, indestructibility, etc etc), then no one is op.

 

[phaeous]

Deep !!

still, my question stands dude .. how should I approach it tho > ? What makes him worthy? do I do that in a mortal sense or in the sense that he survives in the sea of nihility somehow .. that makes him worthy .. I can't imagine a reason he can survive the nihility .. Binder is in that...

he can survive the nihility because he has the highest (a very high?) affinity with the Local Version Of The COSMOS

Or because he has a sufficient affinity with those pieces of OPness lurking about unearned & ungrasped (which are meshing with the rest of that cosmos via primarily his own agency while he makes himself worthy of it via digesting it at a decent rate through challenging epic events)

 

[Midnight-Phantom]

These are great points, and I want to expand on this idea.

My novel's theme is 'Immortal Killing.
Note that there are all sorts of immortality.
My mc is immortal in a sense that he has Indestructible Soul. Without a certain method that specialized in destroying soul, he would simply switch bodies when he dies. Now then, there's another character that possessed another type of immortality which is biological immortality. The second immortal simply cannot die through natural means (age, hunger, etc etc).

Now then, in a certain sense, these two characters are OP, but to me, what makes it interesting is when two or more op character fight/scheme against each other, not just a Last Boss wiping the floor using mobs. As 'The Incredibles' have stated: "When everyone is super, no one is.". If you make multiple characters having op abilities (e.g. taking skills by devouring others, immortality, time travel, indestructibility, etc etc), then no one is op.

Playing with concepts I see .. not giving them the full package but diversifying it and in a sense making them not undefeatable..

 

[Succubiome]

I would keep in mind .. simple progression in the sense of how a said skill can be used in a society where brut force tends to regain supreme.. like people in the world using wood magic to facilitate the growth of food .. but mc will use multiple magic like eath to mend ground, life to tend the plant, water to nourish the plant in the same way it would but as mana infused it would work better, and simple mana to facilitate growth as whole not just using wood magic to pump up the plant .. with it his own growth as he would come to a world with mana and such, how he would navigate new parents, new values in life, how being a powerful person feel like instead a one with no power .. how to stand up for his values .. sutch ..

Okay, so I feel like you have a few conflicts and angles here already:
1. How he stands up for his values sounds like something he has to get used to?
2. How he relates to the values he's familiar with and has held vs his parent's values and the values of this world.
3. How he relates to his new parents-- what do they think of his new way of agriculture?

As @LunaSoltaer said, from a literary perspective, any amount of OPness is fine, as long as it doesn't negate the central conflict.

So I'd say he can be ridiculously OP at both agriculture and combat if the story is actually about him learning what his values are now, how to stand up for them, what having power means and how to handle it responsibly, and how to get along with people.

----

The sort of questions this brings up for me would be:
How his new way of agricultural disrupts the current economic and thus social system. Can other people replicate his style of agriculture less effectively? There's been people using wood magic to grow food, and now he's basically replacing them, either temporarily or permanently. Some people might be upset about this, he might hold back his full power so he doesn't disrupt the food economy too much, he might want to figure out how to shift people to being part of his process or new jobs for them, etc. How does he deal with this?
By destabilizing how food is made, which is one of the core pillars of society, he might also disrupt the entire society from top to bottom-- how does he deal with this?
People seeing him as a rising new power might try to align themselves with him, possibly in ways he doesn't want, maybe some people start to see him as a god or a prophesized ruler and/or want to try to emulate his stle of agriculture, and try to become his followers. Does he accept them and try to guide them, try to drive them off, or...?

Now, being OP in ways that revolutionize agriculture doesn't make any of these things easier, in fact, the more he uses his powers to be wildly OP at farming, rather, the more disruption he's causing and the more problems he has to deal with. Being OP at combat doesn't make any of these things easier, either-- people might try to kill him at first, and it'd help with him winning the fight, but winning the fight in itself wouldn't help with the discontent or the way he's clashing with current society. Unless he decides to take over the society, of course, and then he has a whole new bunch of fun problems you can throw at him.

...but that's just how I'd go about it, there's other angles you could work with that premise.