Writing Deconstructing the 'Isekai' genre and your personal opinions

[Ral]

Well, I suppose I can't judge that for myself, can I?

Yeah, that is the hard part. It is sometimes difficult for the creator themselves to judge their own creation. That is why we have beta-readers.

That would be worse, no? It wouldn't make sense, unless he's a psycho or something.

Depends. Execution does matter. But you don't have to do that. I just give it to point out that doing the complete opposite of how this trope goes would provide you with with something that is different.

Having the protagonist loved ones be killed and having the protagonist be anguish and anger as the result is very common place. It is literally everywhere. If you this trope and do nothing to makes it difference from everything else, then you have nothing but a very tired and overused trope to carry your story.

Oh yeah, they would. We've spent 45 chapters with them after all.

Well, they might be killed in chapter 45, but how often do they really appear in all those 45 chapters? It is not only about when they are killed or how often they appeared but also how they are factored into the story. They might be there for all 45 chapters, but if they are just appear mostly as background character then they don't really much have weight, do they?

If I could give you comparison of a weightier version, how about killing your protagonist? That would surely fucked up everything right? Heck, the story might just end. The protagonist have a very heavy weight in the narrative. Killing them have big impact. You can go read George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire for exactly this.

Of course I don't mean you do that exactly, I just meant it to point out certain aspects, in this case the actual weight of the character in overall narrative. You have to see how the character fit to you narrative, themes, character interaction, etc.

Indeed. But I don't know how to objectively assess whether the execution is successful or not.

This sadly means by going through the wringer. That is why there are beta-reading or movie screening, or beta-testing, etc.

Though, experience can help you make the judgement. Read a lot of similar stories and see what works and such.

Still, the final test comes when it is put out. Sometimes, you would just fail. All you can do is try again next time.

Yeah, I don't know how to do that, unfortunately. So I don't know whether it's well-integrated or not.

Still, it could be just that your reader's preference. There always be some that don't like what you do, but as long as many remained satisfied and happy, you can't really ask for more. But if most of your readers are complaining, then it might be time to give a closer look.

The best you can do it have others look at your story before you put it out. Beta-readers, friends, other writers, all that stuff. See what they think and what advice they may have.

 

[ForestDweller]

Depends. Execution does matter. But you don't have to do that. I just give it to point out that doing the complete opposite of how this trope goes would provide you with with something that is different.

Having the protagonist loved ones be killed and having the protagonist be anguish and anger as the result is very common place. It is literally everywhere. If you this trope and do nothing to makes it difference from everything else, then you have nothing but a very tired and overused trope to carry your story.

I don't like doing something different just to be different to be honest.

Well, they might be killed in chapter 45, but how often do they really appear in all those 45 chapters? It is not when they are killed but how they are factored into the story. They might be there for 45 chapters but mostly as background character then they don't really much have weight.

Seeing how they're the protag's parents, yeah, they appear a lot.

And a sudden switch of protagonist would just make people more angry.

This sadly means by going through the wringer. That is why there are beta-reading or movie screening, or beta-testing, etc.

Too bad I don't have any beta readers.

Still, it could be just that your reader's preference. There always be some that don't like what you do, but as long as many remained satisfied and happy, you can't really ask for more. But if most of your readers are complaining, then it might be time to give a closer look.

Indeed. It's just hard to gauge whether it's the majority that is complaining or just a vocal minority.

 

[Ral]

I don't like doing something different just to be different to be honest.

It is not about being different. It is about giving it your own touch.

Say if you design a shirt. Would just create a plain shirt with some generic graphics in it, someting similar to what you can just buy at any store. Or would you do something that makes you proud to wear it? Like say, print on your favorite drawing on it, or add your own embroidery, or you can do some tie dying, etc. It is still a shirt, but it has something that is uniquely you.

We have seen this trope being done hundred times before. They don't really have much weight by themselves anymore.

Seeing how they're the protag's parents, yeah, they appear a lot.

And a sudden switch of protagonist would just make people more angry.

Execution matters but I don't say it is easy to do. It is a very tired trope after all. I mean, parents and parent figures are of the most typical characters that are killed. Disney does this constantly. Frozen, Moana, The Good Dinosaur, Lilo and Stitch, Tarzan, Cinderella, etc.. And that is just Disney. You are using a staple Disney trope!

And if you make your story lean heavily on this trope, then you already put your story in a big disadvantage. Again, it is a tired, overused trope.

Then don't make it switch sudden. Provide transitions or do natural breaks. You don't even need to give the parents their own POV so need to switch or anything. Since I brought up Disney, look at The Lion King for this. Mufasa is well realized character even we mostly follow Simba.

Too bad I don't have any beta readers.

Yeah, too bad.

Indeed. It's just hard to gauge whether it's the majority that is complaining or just a vocal minority.

You can look at the reader page count. If you could see the reader count drop sharply between the chapter, that is a pretty clear indication that your readers are leaving.

 

[ForestDweller]

You can look at the reader page count. If you could see the reader count drop sharply between the chapter, that is a pretty clear indication that your readers are leaving.

The twist happened months ago though so I can't see it even if I wanted to since the history doesn't go that far.

Again, it is a tired, overused trope.

I still love the trope though.

Then don't make it switch sudden. Provide transitions or do natural breaks. You don't even need to give the parents their own POV so need to switch or anything. Since I brought up Disney, look at The Lion King for this. Mufasa is well realized character even we mostly follow Simba.

It's way obvious that Mufasa is going to die even early into the story. I don't think that's a good example.

It is still a shirt, but it has something that is uniquely you.

Isekai isn't really a genre where uniqueness is important honestly.

 

[Ral]

The twist happened months ago though so I can't see it even if I wanted to since the history doesn't go that far.

You can look at the page themselves:

I still love the trope though.

That is good. I don't think this trope is bad too. It has it uses.

It's way obvious that Mufasa is going to die even early into the story. I don't think that's a good example.

It is the execution. Seriously, people always expects the protagonist's parents to die. It is just so common that them not dying is rare, almost the exceptions to the rule. And whether you think it is good use of the trope or not doesn't matter (and critics and viewers says otherwise, though I admit that doesn't mean it is good, but if we are pitting opinions…). I presented it as an example of 'switching' views between protagonist and their parents. The Lion King does it really well.

Isekai isn't really a genre where uniqueness is important honestly.

Your opinion.

 

[ForestDweller]

Your opinion.

It's a genre where the popular stuff are mostly pandering, wish-fulfillment stuff.

 

[Ral]

It's a genre where the popular stuff are mostly pandering, wish-fulfillment stuff.

Eh. That is just the light novel stuff. As this thread have discussed, there is more to the concept of Isekai that what the light/web novel provided.

And there is nothing wrong with the pandering stuff really. I actually enjoyed them myself… as long as you do the pandering, wish-fulfillment stuff well.

And seriously, you are changing the topic. We are talking about the use of the tropes and not the genre.

And even with pandering, that doesn't mean you can't put your own twist to it.

 

[ForestDweller]

And even with pandering, that doesn't mean you can't put your own twist to it.

Just add some gimmick like many isekais do, even though the base story is essentially the same.

You can look at the page themselves:

You mean per chapter viewcounts?

Honestly, looking at that, there's an obvious decline of views from the first chapter to the most recent chapter. And it declines in stages, not just a sharp decline at the twist. It's already declining at the happy-go-lucky chapters, so I'm not sure what to take from it.

 

[Ral]

Just add some gimmick like many isekais do, even though the base story is essentially the same.

As I said, if you limit yourself to looking only at light/web novels. They pretty are copying each other in the first place.

You mean per chapter viewcounts?

Honestly, looking at that, there's an obvious decline of views from the first chapter to the most recent chapter. And it declines in stages, not just a sharp decline at the twist. It's already declining at the happy-go-lucky chapters, so I'm not sure what to take from it.

The drop doesn't have to happen at the exact chapter because most would still give your story a chance after that, and as I said, it is the execution. They might not exactly that they dislike the twist or you used the trope but what you did with it. The drop might have happen across several chapter after the twist/introduction of the trope. Though, the page view is not really a good count for this, history is better.

You can also look at what the readers are saying and see if any correlation exist to what are being discussed and what happens later.

A gradual decline is actually quite normal especially if your story is really long (unless you did something really right). From our discussion, it seems that your story is that doesn't really its own unique take of anything so it is kinda easy to loose readers especially when there are stories that offers pretty much the same thing. It might not be competitive enough and readers easily abandons your story for others.

 

[ForestDweller]

As I said, if you limit yourself to looking only at light/web novels. They pretty are copying each other in the first place.

Yeah, at the first, I'm writing with the intention of following their style.

You can also look at what the readers are saying and see if any correlation exist to what are being discussed and what happens later.

What do you mean by this?

A gradual decline is actually quite normal especially if your story is really long (unless you did something really right). From our discussion, it seems that your story is that doesn't really its own unique take of anything so it is kinda easy to loose readers especially when there are stories that offers pretty much the same thing. It might not be competitive enough and readers easily abandons your story for others.

Yeah, it's really long, and I suppose it's not unique or competitive enough. Not that I'm aiming it to be unique in the first place.

 

[Ral]

Yeah, at the first, I'm writing with the intention of following their style.

So it might come off like that at first? Then, you might have changed your mind? This is kinda bad in way. I mean, you already established a reader base which you then later abandon because you changed your mind. It might have been better if you started a new story instead.

What do you mean by this?

See if the issues they are talking about corresponds to a drop in readers later on. Correlation does not imply causation but it is a good starting point.

Yeah, it's really long, and I suppose it's not unique or competitive enough. Not that I'm aiming it to be unique in the first place.

Well, it is just the nature of these kind of stories. You heared of this, especially in anime. An anime would be hyped one moment and it is quickly abandoned for a new anime and the cycle repeats.

 

[ForestDweller]

So it might come off like that at first? Then, you might have changed your mind? This is kinda bad in way. I mean, you already established a reader base which you then later abandon because you changed your mind. It might have been better if you started a new story instead.

Oh no, I already planned for the drama to happen from the start. I'm planning a character growth story through hardships, not just a slow life isekai with an overpowered MC.

 

[Laeyioun]

The thing is, the author says that the story is a wish-fulfillment. Maybe using the harem to realize the reader's desire for women.

The thing is, there are added elements that ruined the wish-fulfillment aspect.

Sure, ForestDweller does say that maybe it's not a wish-fuilfillment story after all… Uhm… maybe it is more correct to say that it might just be bad at doing wish-fulfillment. I mean, this thing kinda happens in others too. A Comedy that isn't funny, and Adventure that is really boring, a Horror that isn't scary. A Comedy that isn't funny isn't "Oh! It is not actually a comedy" but a terrible Comedy. A boring Adventure story isn't "Oh! It isn't really Adventure" but a terrible Adventure story. A Horror story that isn't scaring its readers isn't "Oh! It is not really Horror" but a terrible Horror story. They failed at achieving what they are aiming for.

I'm not going to be sure if the ForestDweller might actually meant to write a wish-fulfillment story but just got derailed, unless I go and read the story. Still, if lots of your readers are complaining, then something might have gone wrong.

It's really hard actually to fully categorize whether a popular story (webnovels in this case) as not a wish-fulfillment story. My opinions is I don't consider it as a genre but only as a tag - a matter of whether a story has wish-fulfillment aspects.

Let's say solo leveling. It's an action story with game elements at it's core, but the protagonist's power-ups, successes, and cool factor may be seen as wish-fulfillment because of the relative ease the protagonist obtains these.

It's execution of it. A trope, for example harem, can either be used as a bitter jealousy drama or to let the readers have their waifu feel

To clarify, I meant it for all stories in general, not for Forestdweller's story.

But if I had to say, wish-fulfillment can also be judge via the author's intent in writing and the reader's personal opinions or views of what is pandering to them.

 

[Ral]

It's really hard actually to fully categorize whether a popular story (webnovels in this case) as not a wish-fulfillment story. My opinions is I don't consider it as a genre but only as a tag - a matter of whether a story has wish-fulfillment aspects.

Let's say solo leveling. It's an action story with game elements at it's core, but the protagonist's power-ups, successes, and cool factor may be seen as wish-fulfillment because of the relative ease the protagonist obtains these.

It's execution of it. A trope, for example harem, can either be used as a bitter jealousy drama or to let the readers have their waifu feel

To clarify, I meant it for all stories in general, not for Forestdweller's story.

But if I had to say, wish-fulfillment can also be judge via the author's intent in writing and the reader's personal opinions or views of what is pandering to them.

Almost all story have a pandering aspect to them. Romance for example would involve a romance between a beautiful woman and handsome man because we always desire to be beautiful and hook-up with beautiful people. Or take Superhero stories, awesome powers and beating bad guys, things that many wish they have and wish to do.

It is not power-ups, or successes or the cool factor that makes a story wish-fulfillment; its how these are used. You will notice it easily in certain stories (expecially the Mary Sue stories) because the story would go in their way to praise and show off the protagonist. You will get POV of random observers praising the protagonist; you will get the harem members constantly admiring the protagonist looks and ability in the bed, etc,; even the protagonist would constantly praise themselves and how awesome their powers and abilities are; ect.. It's this kind focus, on the protagonist ability to manifest our desires and dreams is what makes a story a wish-fulfillment story.

Solo Leveling is a wish-fulfillment story. It isn't one at the beginning of the story but as more and more characters appear mostly just to admire the protagonist it solidly becomes one.

On the other hand we have something like Superman. He got similar things, powers, success, cool factor… but what keeps him from being a wish-fulfillment character is the way he is handled.

 

[Wohendum-Bluu]

Almost all story have a pandering aspect to them. Romance for example would involve a romance between a beautiful woman and handsome man because we always desire beautiful and hook-up with beautiful people. Or take Superhero stories, awesome powers and beating bad guys, things that many wish they have and wish to do.

It is not power-ups, or successes or the cool factor that makes a story wish-fulfillment; its how these are used. You will notice it easily in certain stories (expecially the Mary Sue stories) because the story would go in their way to praise and show off the protagonist. You will get POV of random observers praising the protagonist; you will get the harem members constantly admiring the protagonist looks and ability in the bed, etc,; even the protagonist would constantly praise themselves and awesome their powers and abilities; ect.. It's this kind focus, on the protagonist ability to manifest our desires and dreams is what makes a story a wish-fulfillment story.

Solo Leveling is a wish-fulfillment story. It isn't one at the beginning of the story but as more and more characters appear mostly just to admire the protagonist it solidly becomes one.

On the other hand we have something like Superman. He got similar things, powers, success, cool factor… but what keeps him from being a wishfulfillment character is the way he is handled.

To me, Superman is perhaps the most boring superhero imaginable. I don't like him. I find Batman far more interesting. Spiderman even. My favs are Batman, Wolverine, and Deadpool (even before the movies which were actually pretty faithful to the original source material in regards to portraying his personality).

 

[ForestDweller]

You will get POV of random observers praising the protagonist; you will get the harem members constantly admiring the protagonist looks and ability in the bed,

Hmm, I do want to have those elements in my story eventually, but on the other hand, Fate will still give the MC a shitty hand from time to time.

Spoiler

Like how he's going to lose an arm before he gets laid and has a harem officially.

 

[Ral]

To me, Superman is perhaps the most boring superhero imaginable. I don't like him. I find Batman far more interesting. Spiderman even. My favs are Batman, Wolverine, and Deadpool (even before the movies which were actually pretty faithful to the original source material in regards to portraying his personality).

Well, Superman isn't really my favorite either.

He is kinda the oldest of the superheroes considering that he might be the first one, well the first one with superpowers that is. The fact that he is the first one does makes him less interesting because the creators doesn't have much to work with. They have to create the formula. The later superheroes have an advantage because they have can look at previous superheroes and see what works and what doesn't. They can improve the formula.

This also happens to the first Disney Princess, Snow White. People consider her the boring of all the Disney Princesses. She have the same problem as Superman. Being the first one, the formula is very unrefined and the creators doesn't really much experience yet and the lacks shows.

But, I do have to respect them. Without them paving the way for the future, all these other superheroes and Disney movies would not have existed. They might not be the best, but they provided the inspiration for the future superheroes and princesses to come.

Hmm, I do want to have those elements in my story eventually, but on the other hand, Fate will still give the MC a shitty hand from time to time.

Spoiler

Like how he's going to lose an arm before he gets laid and has a harem officially.

Giving the protagonist a shitty hand now and then doesn't keep it from being a wish-fulfillment, but it is a step towards a better one. After all, these shitty things can still by used to display how awesome the protagonist is and more reason for the harem members to sing praises and offer their bodies to him.

 

[ForestDweller]

Giving the protagonist a shitty hand now and then doesn't keep it from being a wish-fulfillment, but it is a step towards a better one. After all, these shitty things can still by used to display how awesome the protagonist is and more reason for the harem members to spout praises.

Exactly. That's why I'm still saying that my story is still pretty wish-fulfilly at its core.

 

[Wohendum-Bluu]

Exactly. That's why I'm still saying that my story is still pretty wish-fulfilly at its core.

Look Ma! Only one hand!! Love the story btw. Will remember to rant that I saw this Sp***er firsthand.

 

[ForestDweller]

Look Ma! Only one hand!! Love the story btw. Will remember to rant that I saw this Sp***er firsthand.

Hey, you're the one who clicked on it. :p