Writing Deconstructing the 'Isekai' genre and your personal opinions

[Laeyioun]

Maybe. Like I said, they don't seem to like "weak" MCs.

That kinda sucks though. I love protagonists who go from weak-to-strong because of their realistic and grueling hard efforts that makes you root for the protagonist and feel gratified when they do succeed.

 

[Laeyioun]

Marketing is just as important as the quality of the product itself, believe it or not.

I agree. It's the hook which fish for those who are willing to give it a try.

 

[Laeyioun]

I don't get this part. they're both fantasy. isekai just means someone went to a different world, but it's all under the umbrella of fantasy. So you're saying the characters never went to the other world and it was just a fantasy story? in that case the author should have never tagged it isekai.

There are no intelligent deconstructions of the isekai genre. All isekai have fallen into the same uninspired tropes whether the authors realizes it or not. Breaking the 4th wall and acknowledging that yes the MC has been killed by a truck haha isn't deconstruction the genre nor is making the MC a cool guy or straight up suicidal. Seeing as the only way people can 'subvert' or 'deconstruct' this genre by adding small drama or a threat that gets solved within 2 chapters shows how lousy this genre as become. Stories I read that I thought were isekai were actually just regular fantasy, and good fantasy at that.

Believe it or not, there are wonderful premises and writing for Japanese Isekai with the implications explored.
-Overlord for being the poster of a video game world with a powerful, non-edgy, anti-hero.
-Youjo Senki for throwing a grey/evil person into another world so that they may experience war and change their beliefs, genderbent while at it.
-Hataraku Maou-sama for doing a reverse isekai, with fantasy characters adapting to modern world and incorporating multiple worlds in the story.
-Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash for having the Isekai as a phenemon happening in the setting. The story is relaxing and then shifts into action, tension, adventuring, and serious parts where the cast and world is realistic and immersive.

Others are Re:Zero, No Game No Life, Mushoku Tensei (for being the first of it's kind), Slime (for being a happy-go-lucky action story with mature-ish protag), Mobuseka, Common Sense of a Duke's Daughter (the manga), Märchen der Werwolf: The Annals of Veight, Clearing an Isekai with the Zero-Believers Goddess

CN: Reverend Insanity, Lord of the Mysteries, Kingdom's Bloodline, The Legendary Mechanic, To Be a Virtuous Wife, The Experimental Log of the Crazy Lich, Cultural Invasion into Another World, A Mistaken Marriage Match: A Generation of Military Counselor, QT Cannon Fodder's Record of Counterattacks and all QT etc.

KR: (Mostly male or harem because of demographic for actions stories) Ending Maker, Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint, Legendary Moonlight Sculptor (it is up to you whether or not VR game world is another world, but it mostly works like a real world in this setting) Regressor Instruction Manual, Trash of the Count’s Family, The Second Coming of Gluttony, Dungeon Defense, Holy Emperor’s Grandson is a Necromancer, Isaac, Never Die Extra, SSS-Class Suicide Hunter, etc.

I agree that many Isekai for lazy writing when it could have been standard fantasy, but I do sure love it when the circumstances of being sent into another world are explored and the story succeeds in making it a complex, refreshing, and hooking story with a mature world.

Also, Zombie Land Saga is not an isekai but despite including Truck-kun in the story, it actually is an ingenious part of it which just drew me in from the onset and made me watch it.

 

[Laeyioun]

If by deconstruction we mean something "different" of a reasonable quality and taking Isekai as its simplest concept (Another World) you have:

In Western Literature
Alice in Wonderland
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
Coraline
The Neverending Story
The Dark Tower (This one is debatable but still different enough to count)

In Light Novels
Konosuba
Youjo senki

As a Webserial
Discworld

This one is a spoiler

Wildbowpig's Parahumansverse


A Horror Videogame
Ib

There are plenty more but This Ranter does not have that much free time.

Human reverse psychology and curiosity prevailed so I clicked the spoiler......
Shoulda listened ??

Thanks for telling me Discworld and ib though!

 

[OneRanter]

Human reverse psychology and curiosity prevailed so I clicked the spoiler......
Shoulda listened ??

Thanks for telling me Discworld and ib though!

Why does people ignore This Ranter's warnings? T.T
Nevertheless, it should still make for an enjoyable read.

This Ranter Recomends bracing thyself while playing Ib.
*Says an UnOminous Ranter*

 

[Ral]

@Laeyioun Oh my gosh. This thread is an AliceShiki trigger ground. Be warned. She might come and rant.

Maybe. Like I said, they don't seem to like "weak" MCs.

I mean, it is a wishfulfillment story, right? A weak MC is kind the opposite of wishfulfillment character. Unless you are a masochist or you have some kind of exotic fetish or something, imagining yourself being tossed around, used, tortured, depressed, etc. is not what people think of what wish-fulfillment is. It is about the fulfillment of your dreams and wishes and not to experience the more extreme versions of what you are trying to escape from in the real life.

Also, the thing with drama with these kind of stories and why they tend to be bad is of how extreme they tend to be. What 'drama' means for these kind of stories is often just torturing the protagonist in the most horrific ways. That is a really very narrow and distorted view of what Drama is; and is just really boring to me. Yeah. The protagonist gets tortured and tortured some more, then some more, and more. That is what 'drama' is now. A repetitive monotonous drone. Boring. A soap opera does Drama better and I don't like soap operas.

Also, it kinda seems like these authors are ashamed of what their story are so they swing hard into the opposite direction, like some teenager who wants to appear cool and overdid it with the makeup and leather jacket and such. It is just really awkward.

A trope that is often used to achieve this drama is the stuffed-in-the-fridge trope, where a character or characters close to the protagonist are tortured or killed in horrific ways for the purpose of developing the protagonist's narrative or illicit emotions out of them. It can be done well, but considering the story is a wish-fulfillment story, it is just a really cheap and overused trope and is a hallmark of lazy writing. Worse is if you use this trope to kill interesting characters. Protagonist in these stories tend to rather bland characters. Its the characters around them that actually are interesting or bring the interesting stuff out… then you decided to kill them? If your story devolves into just killing your actual interesting characters, then, you are going to loose my interest.

And of course the contrived part. These drama tends to happen just because. No reason. The author wants drama and boy do they want it bad. They will put it there and doesn't matter how. The worst way to integrate drama is by something stupid. The Idiot Ball trope comes to play because author wants drama, and the protagonist often receives the ball because of course the protagonist needs to be turned into a retard for the drama to happen. The whole thing just becomes one giant Idiot Plot.

 

[OneRanter]

@Laeyioun Oh my gosh. This thread is an AliceShiki trigger ground. Be warned. She might come and rant.

So... We should add more gunpowder and then summon her?
\(*o*)/

 

[Laeyioun]

@Laeyioun Oh my gosh. This thread is an AliceShiki trigger ground. Be warned. She might come and rant.


I mean, it is a wishfulfillment story, right? A weak MC is kind the opposite of wishfulfillment character. Unless you are a masochist or you have some kind of exotic fetish or something, imagining yourself being tossed around, used, tortured, depressed, etc. is not what people think of what wish-fulfillment is. It is about the fulfillment of your dreams and wishes and not to experience the more extreme versions of what you are trying to escape from in the real life.

Also, the thing with drama with these kind of stories and why they tend to be bad is of how extreme they tend to be. What 'drama' means for these kind of stories is often just torturing the protagonist in the most horrific ways. That is a really very narrow and distorted view of what Drama is; and is just really boring to me. Yeah. The protagonist gets tortured and tortured some more, then some more, and more. That is what 'drama' is now. A repetitive monotonous drone. Boring. A soap opera does Drama better and I don't like soap operas.

Also, it kinda seems like these authors are ashamed of what their story are so they swing hard into the opposite direction, like some teenager who wants to appear cool and overdid it with the makeup and leather jacket and such. It is just really awkward.

A trope that is often used to achieve this drama is the stuffed-in-the-fridge trope, where a character or character close to the protagonist is tortured or killed in horrific ways for the purpose of developing the protagonist's narrative or illicit emotions out of them. It can be done well, but considering the story is a wish-fulfillment story, it is just a really cheap and overused trope and is a hallmark of lazy writing. Worse is if you use this trope to kill interesting characters. Protagonist in these stories tend to rather bland characters. Its the characters around them that actually are interesting or bring the interesting stuff out… then you decided to kill them? If your story devolves into just killing your actual interesting characters, then, you are going to loose my interest.

And of course the contrived part. These drama tends to happen just because. No reason. The author wants drama and boy do they want it bad. They will put it there and doesn't matter how. The worst way to integrate drama is by something stupid. The Idiot Ball trope comes to play because author wants drama, and the protagonist often receives the ball because of course the protagonist needs to be turned into a retard for the drama to happen. The whole thing just becomes one giant Idiot Plot.

Wow, this can help me avoid many pitfalls. I'm very grateful!

Yeah, what I was talking about wasn't wish fulfillment.
I actually like the protagonist having setbacks, limitations, flaws, failures, defeats, and overlook some things and their self-judgement.
Because it sets up for the gradual improvement and victories. I haven't played it, but to make an analogy it's just like Dark Souls defeating the gamer, but making it very satisfying and immersive for them.

But what you said, killing for the sake of killing, and drama for the sake of drama is going too far and I agree that it should be reasonable, organic, fully considered and written thoroughly, and should hold significance in how the story unfolds far into the story. The things you said made me aware that going too far or too mirroring too much of a bad experience of a reader can turn off many audiences so I should try to compensate it in some way, and with good writing to boot.


Also it's okay if someone will rant and state their opinions, just not hate-speech

 

[PunishedKom]

I have conflicting opinions on the genre. Some of it is very creative and I like it a lot, while the others are just absolute bottom of the barrel due to how low the barrier of entry is and how high the readership is for the genre. Very low quality stuff can succeed in situations like that.

 

[xluferx]

This seems to be a pacing and structural issue. Maybe also something with how you build the character.

Can you be a bit specific please? I don't think is slow pacing to have characters share moments when they know each other not that long.
I mean the group goes to a town, MC and female lead go to buy thing together while the rest of the group goes to eat somewhere else.

 

[gaylolis]

my favorite kind of isekai is when everyone's a cute girl or futanari, and the mc is also one. since it's isekai, you can have cute monster girls flirting with the mc as well.

no need for any complicated plots, just gay loving, cozy moments, and having fun.

plus points if the world is actually interesting and have stuff people want to travel to.

 

[Laeyioun]

my favorite kind of isekai is when everyone's a cute girl or futanari, and the mc is also one. since it's isekai, you can have cute monster girls flirting with the mc as well.

no need for any complicated plots, just gay loving and having fun.

plus points if the world is actually interesting and have stuff people want to travel to.

Such fluffy ideals ?

 

[Ral]

Can you be a bit specific please? I don't think is slow pacing to have characters share moments when they know each other not that long.
I mean the group goes to a town, MC and female lead go to buy thing together while the rest of the group goes to eat somewhere else.

Was the story you refer to the Naruto fanfiction one?

 

[ForestDweller]

I mean, it is a wishfulfillment story, right? A weak MC is kind the opposite of wishfulfillment character. Unless a masochist or have some kind of exotic fetish or something, imagining yourself being tossed around, used, tortured, depressed, etc. is not what people think of what wish-fulfillment is.

Hah, maybe it's not a wish-fuilfillment story after all. But I feel a story with a loyal and devoted harem of beautiful girls automatically makes it a wish-fulfillment, no matter how tough the protag has it.

Also, the thing with drama with these kind of stories and why they tend to be bad is of how extreme they tend to be. What 'drama' means for these kind of stories is often just torturing the protagonist in the most horrific ways. That is a really very narrow and distorted view of what Drama is; and is just really boring to me. Yeah. The protagonist gets tortured and tortured some more, then some more, and more. That is what 'drama' is now. A repetitive monotonous drone. Boring. A soap opera does Drama better and I don't like soap operas.

Thankfully, I don't think my story is like that. It's just a couple of sad moments and backstories here and there...

And of course the contrived part. These drama tends to happen just because. No reason. The author wants drama and boy do they want it bad. They will put there and doesn't matter how. The worst way to integrate drama is by something stupid. The Idiot Ball trope comes to play because author wants drama, and the protagonist often receives the ball because of course the protagonist needs to be turned into a retard for the drama to happen. The whole thing just becomes one giant Idiot Plot.

Don't think my drama is contrived either. It happens because of bad, power-hungry people, which you can find just about anywhere.

It can be done well, but considering the story is a wish-fulfillment story, it is just a really cheap and overused trope and is a hallmark of lazy writing.

So, you can't use the trope in a "wish-fulfillment" story well?

Worse is if you use this trope to kill interesting characters. Protagonist in these stories tend to rather bland characters. Its the characters around them that actually are interesting or bring the interesting stuff out… then you decided to kill them? If your story devolves into just killing your actual interesting characters, then, you are going to loose my interest.

Well, so far, I've only killed five side characters. None are really that interesting compared to the actual characters like the harem members.

 

[Ral]

Don't think my drama is contrived either. It happens because of bad, power-hungry people, which you can find just about anywhere.

Just because you can find it anywhere, which I think you mean in other stories, doesn't mean they aren't contrived. And even if you mean the real world, fiction is kinda given a more strict measure. Sure there are power-hungry people but why do they target these characters specifically?

So, you can't use the trope in a "wish-fulfillment" story well?

You can but as I said, it is overused and kinda lazy way to add drama. You have to do something more or you are doing practically what every story is doing. Something we have seen many, many, many times. And when your story practically revolves around this, not only would your story would appear cliche and lazy, it has really nothing else to offer.

And the trope kinda have lots of downsides that you can easily fall into if you aren't well versed of the trope.

Well, so far, I've only killed five side characters. None are really that interesting compared to the actual characters like the harem members.

And here is one of its pitfalls: you are extracting drama from killing disposable characters. It is kinda hard to get invested in the drama of this kind.

And I'm sure you would complain because I said that this trope is bad because it kills the interesting characters. Yeah, that is the thing. This trope is full of pitfalls left and right and it requires a deft author to implement this trope. In this case, the characters to be killed off must be interesting and the main character/protagonist must be interesting too. The characters to be killed must be something interesting and we care about, or we would not care much about the drama at all. The main character has to be interesting or this trope results to you getting rid of the interesting stuff of your story.

And not to mention how the entire thing develops.

 

[Laeyioun]

Hmm hmm just something to add between your discussion, but I think harem/reverse-harem and wish fulfillment are separable.

Harem itself is a wide term if there are many love interests regardless if they're official or not, or in bed with each other or not. But only if these characters exhibit a lot of interest in protagonists and may or may not be given appearances in the story. Surely you have heard of yandere harem, R-18 seduction grey-moral stories, and angsty love triangles.

Wish-fulfillment can range from everything from face-slapping, power-levelling, succeeding and getting famous, getting in bed with characters, satisfying revenge stories, fluffy and easy storyline for protagonists, insanely helpful and lucky fortuitous encounters and more. It just has to pander to a desire in a very gratifying way.

 

[Ral]

Hmm hmm just something to add between your discussion, but I think harem/reverse-harem and wish fulfillment are separable.

Harem itself is a wide term if there are many love interests regardless if they're official or not, or in bed with each other or not. But only if these characters exhibit a lot of interest in protagonists and may or may not be given appearances in the story. Surely you have heard of yandere harem, R-18 seduction grey-moral stories, and angsty love triangles.

Wish-fulfillment can range from everything from face-slapping, power-levelling, succeeding and getting famous, getting in bed with characters, satisfying revenge stories, fluffy and easy storyline for protagonists, insanely helpful and lucky fortuitous encounters and more. It just has to pander to a desire in a very gratifying way.

The thing is, the author says that the story is a wish-fulfillment. Maybe using the harem to realize the reader's desire for women.

The thing is, there are added elements that ruined the wish-fulfillment aspect.

Sure, ForestDweller does say that maybe it's not a wish-fuilfillment story after all… Uhm… maybe it is more correct to say that it might just be bad at doing wish-fulfillment. I mean, this thing kinda happens in others too. A Comedy that isn't funny, and Adventure that is really boring, a Horror that isn't scary. A Comedy that isn't funny isn't "Oh! It is not actually a comedy" but a terrible Comedy. A boring Adventure story isn't "Oh! It isn't really Adventure" but a terrible Adventure story. A Horror story that isn't scaring its readers isn't "Oh! It is not really Horror" but a terrible Horror story. They failed at achieving what they are aiming for.

I'm not going to be sure if the ForestDweller might actually meant to write a wish-fulfillment story but just got derailed, unless I go and read the story. Still, if lots of your readers are complaining, then something might have gone wrong.

 

[ForestDweller]

Sure there are power-hungry people but why do they target these characters specifically?

Yep. I've thought about that aspect long and hard before I even started the drama.

You have to do something more

That's why I also try to show the growth and anguish of the MC from those events. It compounds into future events as well.

In this case, the characters to be killed off must be interesting and the main character/protagonist must be interesting too. The characters to be killed must be something interesting and we care about, or we would not care much about the drama at all. The main character has to be interesting or this trope results to you getting rid of the interesting stuff of your story.

Hopefully, my story fulfills both. My readers do care about the characters who got killed off. As for the MC, some dislike his wimpiness, but others have said that they enjoy his growth as well.

The problem is, I'm not sure how to gauge how many people think the former vs the latter.

Sure, ForestDweller does say that maybe it's not a wish-fuilfillment story after all… Uhm… maybe it is more correct to say that it might just be bad at doing wish-fulfillment. I mean, this thing kinda happens in others too. A Comedy that isn't funny, and Adventure that is really boring, a Horror that isn't scary. A Comedy that isn't funny isn't "Oh! It is not actually a comedy" but a terrible Comedy. A boring Adventure story isn't "Oh! It isn't really Adventure" but a terrible Adventure story. A Horror story that isn't scaring its readers isn't "Oh! It is not really Horror" but a terrible Horror story. They failed at achieving what they are aiming for.

Maybe it is. Maybe I'm not aiming for a wish-fulfillment story after all. It depends if you categorize something like Mushoku Tensei a wish-fulfillment story.

But a story about a weak man overcoming his weakness while getting a harem on the side, isn't that wish-fulfillment?

Still, if lots of your readers are complaining, then something might have gone wrong.

Maybe. They don't want the drama part, only the pure, wish-fulfillment part.

 

[Ral]

Yep. I've thought about that aspect long and hard before I even started the drama.

Just because you thought about that aspect long and hard doesn't make it not contrived. The result is what decides if it comes out as contrived or not, not the process of creating the stuff.

That's why I also try to show the growth and anguish of the MC from those events. It compounds into future events as well.

Just as I said, stuffed-into-the-fridge is used to move the plot forward and illicit emotions (like anguish) from the protagonist. If you use this trope just to move the plot forward and illicit emotions (anguish) from the protagonist, then there is no "more" in there than what you get from your typical stuffed-into-the-fridge trope. Heck, if the protagonist instead becomes happy and goes in his merry way after the "tragedy" then there would actually be more because you subverted the trope and make the story go in different direction.

Hopefully, my story fulfills both. My readers do care about the characters who got killed off. As for the MC, some dislike his wimpiness, but others have said that they enjoy his growth as well.

The problem is, I'm not sure how to gauge how many people think the former vs the latter.

I don't know. At what chapter did you kill these characters? How many scenes do they have? What exactly makes them interesting a beloved by the readers?

I mean, it is kinda easy to make your readers sorry for the character but feeling sorry for them doesn't equate to readers actually cared about the character or finding them interesting. The emotion is bought out by the situation and not because you actually cared for the character. Just think of what would happen if these character haven't died. Would your readers care for them then? If your character is only interesting because of how they died and how their deaths affects the protagonist, then they aren't really interesting characters at all.

Maybe it is. Maybe I'm not aiming for a wish-fulfillment story after all. It depends if you categorize something like Mushoku Tensei a wish-fulfillment story.

But a story about a weak man overcoming his weakness while getting a harem on the side, isn't that wish-fulfillment?

Yes, but execution does matter. I have given example with Comedy, Adventure and Horror on how could things go. A Comedy that isn't funny doesn't mean it is not a comedy, it just being bad at it. There is more to a comedy than just being funny. That is the goal or the point but that manifest into the story itself, in how its structured, how the tropes are used, or the writing, etc. See, a stand up comedy routine doesn't cease to become a stand up comedy routine just because no one laughed.

Maybe. They don't want the drama part, only the pure, wish-fulfillment part.

Or maybe it isn't integrated will into the story and doesn't mesh well with the wish-fulfillment part. There are lots of wish-fulfillment story with drama in them. You might have to look and analyze your story to what is really happened.

 

[ForestDweller]

The result is what decides if it comes out as contrived or not, not the process of creating the stuff.

Well, I suppose I can't judge that for myself, can I?

Just as I said, stuffed-into-the-fridge is used to move the plot forward and illicit emotions (like anguish) from the protagonist. If you use this trope just to move the plot forward and illicit emotions (anguish) from the protagonist, then there is no "more" in there than what you get from your typical stuffed-into-the-fridge trope. Heck, if the protagonist instead becomes happy and goes in his merry way after the "tragedy" then there would actually be more because you subverted the trope and make the story go in different direction.

That would be worse, no? It wouldn't make sense, unless he's a psycho or something.

I don't know. At what chapter did you kill these characters? How many scenes do they have? What exactly makes them interesting a beloved by the readers?

I mean, it is kinda easy to make your readers sorry for the character but feeling sorry for them doesn't equate to readers actually cared about the character or finding them interesting. The emotion is bought out by the situation and not because you actually cared for the character. Just think of what would happen if these character haven't died. Would your readers care for them then? If your character is only interesting because of how they died and how their deaths affects the protagonist, then they aren't really interesting characters at all.

Oh yeah, they would. We've spent 45 chapters with them after all.

Yes, but execution does matter. I have given example with Comedy, Adventure and Horror on how could things go. A Comedy that isn't funny doesn't mean it is not a comedy, it just being bad at it. There is more to a comedy than just being funny. That is the goal or the point but that manifest into the story itself, in how its structured, how the tropes are used, or the writing, etc. See, a stand up comedy routine doesn't cease to become a stand up comedy routine just because no one laughed.

Indeed. But I don't know how to objectively assess whether the execution is successful or not.

Or maybe it isn't integrated will into the story and doesn't mesh well with the wish-fulfillment part. There are lots of wish-fulfillment story with drama in them. You might have to look and analyze your story to what is really happened.

Yeah, I don't know how to do that, unfortunately. So I don't know whether it's well-integrated or not.