Writing Deconstructing the 'Isekai' genre and your personal opinions

[Laeyioun]

Heya! Laeyioun here ??

Right off the bat, I should tell you that I am going to use isekai as a catch-all term. I'm not just referring to modern works in this genre or the mainstream and traditional views of what it actually means, but what could be considered as such. Any form of media counts.
Examples: Space Jam, Jumanji, Samurai Jack, Enchanted, Tron, Futurama, Shrek Forever After, The Wizard of Oz, Spirited Away, Monsters Inc, Alice in Wonderland, Hellboy, Narnia, Coco, The Book of Life, Reverend Insanity, Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint, Inuyasha, Familiar of Zero and others I haven't included because I couldn't think of those right away.
Some others that may be barely considered as such or fall in subgenres whose terms may be not known: Back to the Future, Predestination, Avengers Endgame, X-men Days of Future Past (because different timeline = different world, with significant implications and distinct settings), Inception

What I can consider as isekai because of the going to another world element:
Transmigration, *Transmigration reincarnation, Transportation, Possession, Summoning, World-Hopping, Memory-inheritance/transplant, Object/ Door/ Gate/ Closet/ Opening to Another World, Being flushed into another world, becoming a god of another world(s) by chance etc. -> tell me other ways if you think of one

Types of isekai stories (non-strict definition. Still adding any missed ones)
-Game world - Otome game, Galge game, MMORPG, LitRPG, etc. And the usual where protagonist can isekai as a: hero, villainess, villain, mob, cannon fodder, love interest, heroine, demon lord, non-human, royalty and noble, child
-Fictional world isekai - book, movie, show, comics
-Becoming another person and exploring the implications of it
-Towers and Portals leading away and to Earth - the usual plots in korean webtoons and webnovels
-Quick Transmigration and Secretly Transporting into Another World/Setting to have adventures, grow stronger, or overcome trials (VR webnovels come close, but ultimately most only have an artificial game world)
-Apocalypse leading to other worlds combining / Earth or place getting isekai'd
-Parallel or Alternate world - this can range from another version of Earth with different history and circumstances (usually problematic, and even male or female centric worlds, or just for the setting), time travelling with hints of it being a different Earth, isekai into a alike-earth setting (like an ancient-china like setting but doesn't follow Earth's history)
-Reverse Isekai (just like The Devil is a Part-timer)
-Summoned or transported - the usual Japanese or cliche-webnovel isekai
-Accidental entry into another world or being introduced to a hidden supernatural world
-Multiverse, multiple realms, multiple worlds, multiple dimension, ascension in cultivation stories, after-life places like heaven and hell, Interdimensional travel
-Supernatural world connected to Earth. Maybe even with secret societies and people.
-To clarify. Tensei Isekai, Jikan Isekai, Shoujo(/Reverse Harem) Isekai, Harem Isekai, Reverse Isekai included

I found that writing one might be fun while also very familiar to me. Yet I'm aware that when I brainstorm, I could inadvertently stick to too much comfort, soo ----

I'm looking into the intriguing aspects and concepts, the pitfalls, cliches, tropes, stereotypes, twists of the isekai genre and isekai plot devices. And the brilliant usage of these.
Express your own views and opinions of these ^, and feel free to have discussions. It's better if you state a specific aspect of an isekai story and elaborate it fully, but it is up to you on how you will state it. I'm also just very curious otherwise.

-for example, your views on how the way a person isekais into another world is incorporated, handled and executed in a story. I don't even have a clear idea of this particular specific subject myself other than it serves as the foundation of an isekai story and can have a ton of significance on the narrative via twists and foreshadowing.

Cheers if you saw this ?
(may edit post because it IS messy hahaha)

 

[ForestDweller]

I tried throwing a little drama into my harem wish-fulfillment isekai. Ended up alienating a lot of my audience, resulting in quite the low score and growth in views.

Should've just stuck with the smart, overpowered MC trope that people love.

 

[Laeyioun]

I tried throwing a little drama into my harem wish-fulfillment isekai. Ended up alienating a lot of my audience, resulting in quite the low score and growth in views.

Should've just stuck with the smart, overpowered MC trope that people love.

I* sympathize with you, but forgive me for being amused ? (To clarify, it's towards the situation itself and not the writing)

In my opinion, it depends on what kind of story it presents itself as. If we specifically talk about mainly wish fulfillment with harem/reverse-harem stories, then those are usually aimed towards people who want to escape in happy and gratifying fantasies even if it's unrealistic - because it's fiction that is fun with no repercussions for the viewer.

Drama would be better aimed at mature audiences or people who are looking for a complex, thought-out story with drama and setbacks. There are exceptions, but the mainstream audience are too fixated with overpowered, exciting, and cool stuff.

 

[Nahrenne]

Reincarnation

I have to disagree with this one since often the reincarnation has transmigration in it too, however not all reincarnations have the MC going to another world.
An example would be my own story: the MC is reincarnated but it's the same world they were originally from - it's just a fantasy world not our own.

A lot of transmigration stories use reincarnation as the way of transmigrating since it gives an excuse for why the original world won't wonder where the MC ended up and you can use the reason of the soul ending up in a different world, etc...be it via divine interference or a mix up or...you get the picture.

Saying that, there are a lot of reincarnation stories that have the MC reincarnate in their own world, thus aren't isekai.
Emphasis on isekai meaning go to another world, meaning there had to be an original world and then a different one. If it's the same world it's not an isekai.
Note that Quick Transmigration stories are called that, quick transmigration; not quick reincarnation.

(Sorry for mini-rant).

I'm looking into the intriguing aspects and concepts, the pitfalls, cliches, tropes, stereotypes, twists of the isekai genre and isekai plot devices. And the brilliant usage of these.
Express your own views and opinions of these ^, and feel free to have discussions. It's better if you state a specific aspect of an isekai story and elaborate it fully, but it is up to you on how you will state it.

I think the point of isekai is that the MC learns about the world with the reader - thus their reactions should be the same as how the reader would react. It allows the writer to do a kind of cold open to the world without having to straight away explain its lore and history - though that could just be my opinion on it.

As for some tropes/cliches that they sometimes have:
- Summoned to be a hero by a kingdom/empire/organisation.
- Forced into going to different worlds via a system - be it divine or otherwise. <- This is usually the quick transmigration route.
- Starting in a poor/small village that either has something awful happen to it or the MC gets bored and wants to explore the world more.
- Ending up in either a game, a book, or a film, etc...where the MC either has initial amnesia about who they are before realising they are a character with - usually - a poor/bad ending.


A brilliant QT series that does really well with building the worlds in it is a CN BL called: Quickly Wear The Face Of The Devil, it set the bar for how to do QT BL stories. Or...it did in my mind. Other people might vehemently disagree with that opinion.
>w<

As for pitfalls...because the MC has never been to the world before, the authors have the tendency to give them OP cheats/powers/intellect/charisma/plot armour which kind of sometimes ruins the cohesion and immersion of the story. Saying that, there are other non-isekai fantasy stories that also fall into that pitfall...
orz

Hope at least some of this helped!
I am, by no means, an expert so take what I've said with a pinch of salt.
>w<

I wish you luck in your own story-making!
*huggles you*

\(^o^)/

(Again, sorry for the mini-rant)

X

 

[Laeyioun]

I have to disagree with this one since often the reincarnation has transmigration in it too, however not all reincarnations have the MC going to another world.
An example would be my own story: the MC is reincarnated but it's the same world they were originally from - it's just a fantasy world not our own.

A lot of transmigration stories use reincarnation as the way of transmigrating since it gives an excuse for why the original world won't wonder where the MC ended up and you can use the reason of the soul ending up in a different world, etc...be it via divine interference or a mix up or...you get the picture.

Saying that, there are a lot of reincarnation stories that have the MC reincarnate in their own world, thus aren't isekai.
Emphasis on isekai meaning go to another world, meaning there had to be an original world and then a different one. If it's the same world it's not an isekai.
Note that Quick Transmigration stories are called that, quick transmigration; not quick reincarnation.

(Sorry for mini-rant).


I think the point of isekai is that the MC learns about the world with the reader - thus their reactions should be the same as how the reader would react. It allows the writer to do a kind of cold open to the world without having to straight away explain its lore and history - though that could just be my opinion on it.

As for some tropes/cliches that they sometimes have:
- Summoned to be a hero by a kingdom/empire/organisation.
- Forced into going to different worlds via a system - be it divine or otherwise. <- This is usually the quick transmigration route.
- Starting in a poor/small village that either has something awful happen to it or the MC gets bored and wants to explore the world more.
- Ending up in either a game, a book, or a film, etc...where the MC either has initial amnesia about who they are before realising they are a character with - usually - a poor/bad ending.


A brilliant QT series that does really well with building the worlds in it is a CN BL called: Quickly Wear The Face Of The Devil, it set the bar for how to do QT BL stories. Or...it did in my mind. Other people might vehemently disagree with that opinion.
>w<

As for pitfalls...because the MC has never been to the world before, the authors have the tendency to give them OP cheats/powers/intellect/charisma/plot armour which kind of sometimes ruins the cohesion and immersion of the story. Saying that, there are other non-isekai fantasy stories that also fall into that pitfall...
orz

Hope at least some of this helped!
I am, by no means, an expert so take what I've said with a pinch of salt.
>w<

I wish you luck in your own story-making!
*huggles you*

\(^o^)/

(Again, sorry for the mini-rant)

X

I'm fine with the rant. If anything, I welcome it because it opens up the possibilities for discussion :].

I see your point that reincarnation can be misused or mismentioned. I guess my writing it on there can be misconstrued as such, but my intent in putting it there are for stories which heavily explore the isekai aspects alongside the consequences and possibilities opened up by reincarnation; webnovel example being The Beginning After The End.

But yeah, usually it can be used as a crutch in writing. It's not all the time but many use it for convenience. I usually don't mind if it is executed believable enough and there are hidden implications for the reincarnation-transmigration(oh this is what I meant to state)

For the other stuff you said, it's very helpful, thanks!

Edit: I edited the post ^, ^
Also, I think I read that in the past, before realizing it was BL ? I plan to read it again in the future though - I just can stomach GL better than BL for now.

 

[ForestDweller]

I* sympathize with you, but forgive me for being amused.

In my opinion, it depends on what kind of story it presents itself as. If we specifically talk about mainly wish fulfillment with harem/reverse-harem stories, then those are usually aimed towards people who want to escape in happy and gratifying fantasies even if it's unrealistic - because it's fiction that is fun with no repercussions for the viewer.

Drama would be better aimed at mature audiences or people who are looking for a complex, thought-out story with drama and setbacks. There are exceptions, but the mainstream audience are too fixated with overpowered, exciting, and cool stuff.

I should write drama only if it's like Shield Hero where the drama only comes from the outside, meaning, the MC is rarely, if ever, wrong or flawed. So it's just him being mistreated by the world. And the revenge must be there. The bad guys must be humiliated in some way, not just killed in an unceremonious manner. That's also a form of wish-fulfillment. Getting back against the bullies or those assholes who disrespected you at work.

My MC, unfortunately, has his pathetic moments that are intolerable by a lot of readers. And the vengeance aspect isn't there either.

Oh well, one of these days, I'll try writing a pure wish-fulfillment harem isekai with no drama in them. Just a guy going around being overpowered while collecting all sorts of girls.

 

[Laeyioun]

I should write drama only if it's like Shield Hero where the drama only comes from the outside, meaning, the MC is rarely, if ever, wrong or flawed. So it's just him being mistreated by the world. And the revenge must be there. The bad guys must be humiliated in some way, not just killed in an unceremonious manner. That's also a form of wish-fulfillment. Getting back against the bullies or those assholes who disrespected you at work.

My MC, unfortunately, has his pathetic moments that are intolerable by a lot of readers. And the vengeance aspect isn't there either.

Oh well, one of these days, I'll try writing a pure wish-fulfillment harem isekai with no drama in them. Just a guy going around being overpowered while collecting all sorts of girls.

I agree! I haven't thought that far, but I considered Shield hero as the stellar example of one. Maou of The Devil is a Part-timer is very similar. While not perfect, they are made likable and relatable (but I like Maou better).

Some isekai works like FFF-Trashero is on the other side of the spectrum where readers root for the evil and edginess. I treat those as 'revenge p0rn'. If I by chance for some reason do read those type of stories, I would just read for purely fun and not for the depth.

But if you ask me, I'd much rather read a protagonist with failures rather than being Mr. Generic Lucky Mcplot-armor. Something like Kingdom's Bloodline (it's great for me but preferable with better pacing and execution of some things)

Goodluck in your writing!

 

[The_Long_Serpent]

I do have a sort of morbid fascination with bad media, as evidenced by my fascination with the pitfalls of RWBY and Noelle's She-Ra.

 

[Laeyioun]

I do have a sort of morbid fascination with bad media, as evidenced by my fascination with the pitfalls of RWBY and Noelle's She-Ra.

Right? It's fascinating in how marketing and targeting audiences make for profitable and popular shows despite lackluster aspects.

I have not heard of both of what you mentioned though xD

 

[The_Long_Serpent]

Right? It's fascinating in how marketing and targeting audiences make for profitable and popular shows despite lackluster aspects.

I have not heard of both of what you mentioned though xD

They are very much western(even though some still consider them anime. I see it with RWBY, but not She-Ra), and have problems with pacing, character development, pandering to shippers, and so forth.

 

[ForestDweller]

Right? It's fascinating in how marketing and targeting audiences make for profitable and popular shows despite lackluster aspects.

Marketing is just as important as the quality of the product itself, believe it or not.

 

[The_Long_Serpent]

Marketing is just as important as the quality of the product itself, believe it or not.

Agreed.

 

[tridetect]

There are no intelligent deconstructions of the isekai genre. All isekai have fallen into the same uninspired tropes whether the authors realizes it or not. Breaking the 4th wall and acknowledging that yes the MC has been killed by a truck haha isn't deconstruction the genre nor is making the MC a cool guy or straight up suicidal. Seeing as the only way people can 'subvert' or 'deconstruct' this genre by adding small drama or a threat that gets solved within 2 chapters shows how lousy this genre as become. Stories I read that I thought were isekai were actually just regular fantasy, and good fantasy at that.

 

[Bloodysin28]

I prefer grim dark franchises such as Warhammer 40k and beserk anyway,I occasionally read isekai with my brain turned off, although I find a very few rare gems like re:zero,for people complaining about too much edginess, most of u people have never been anywhere near an actual war or battlefield have u?u will realise when you fight ,kill, bleed and watch people die that so called good and just are on some way full of shit.

 

[ForestDweller]

There are no intelligent deconstructions of the isekai genre. All isekai have fallen into the same uninspired tropes whether the authors realizes it or not. Breaking the 4th wall and acknowledging that yes the MC has been killed by a truck haha isn't deconstruction the genre nor is making the MC a cool guy or straight up suicidal. Seeing as the only way people can 'subvert' or 'deconstruct' this genre by adding small drama or a threat that gets solved within 2 chapters shows how lousy this genre as become. Stories I read that I thought were isekai were actually just regular fantasy, and good fantasy at that.

(Un) fortunately, my story's drama lasts quite a lot longer than that. And a lot of my (former) readers don't like that.

 

[JayDirex]

isekai were actually just regular fantasy, and good fantasy at that.

I don't get this part. they're both fantasy. isekai just means someone went to a different world, but it's all under the umbrella of fantasy. So you're saying the characters never went to the other world and it was just a fantasy story? in that case the author should have never tagged it isekai.

 

[OneRanter]

I should write drama only if it's like Shield Hero where the drama only comes from the outside, meaning, the MC is rarely, if ever, wrong or flawed.

And then there is Subaru going Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Fox-Trot-9]

Fictional world isekai - book, movie, show, comics

I've actually seen this in manwha and manga I've read, where the MC (usually a woman from this world) get isekai'd into the world of their favorite book or video game, usually as the villainess who's destined the die, unless the MC does something to prevent that. I'll admit, I'm not as well versed in this area, so I'll just leave it at that.

With that said, however, I've seen uses of existing settings from other authors (usually from the public domain) reused and expanded upon in other authors' works. For instance, authors have used the setting and characters of Lewis Carroll's Alice books in their own works, such as Anna M. Richards in her novel, A New Alice in the Old Wonderland, in which the American Alice Lee enters the world of Lewis Carroll's Wonderland and expands on the things going on there.

Note: My WIP, Days of Blood and Roses: A Magical Girl Thriller, makes heavy use of this aspect of the isekai genre in the form of many of my characters going into the Wonderlands and Looking-Glass worlds of Lewis Carroll's Alice books and Edgar Allan Poe's nightmarish settings, as well as utilizing characters from those works and refashioning them into new iterations for my story. This is about as simple as I can state it overall.

Earth or place getting isekai'd

There's a crazy conspiracy theory out there called the "Mandela Effect," which posits that the world as we know it (or have known it) has actually changed (or if I may be so bold as to use this thread's term, isekai'd) into a different place, and there are examples shown on the internet that purport to prove this. One is that everyone that remembers the kids' show as the Berenstein Bears is now called the Berenstain Bears.

Another famous example, which gives the "Mandela Effect" its name, is the case of Nelson Mandela, the first president of South Africa, whom many people have claimed to remember him dying in prison in the 1990s instead of dying in 2013 after his presidency.

Another famous example is the one in 1989 of a protestor in Tiananmen Square standing before a line of tanks, in which some people remember the tanks running him over in the video instead of trying to turn away to avoid running him over.

Note: My WIP, Days of Blood and Roses: A Magical Girl Thriller, mentions this aspect of the isekai genre in the form of one of my characters talking about the "Mandela Effect" when talking about false memories.

after-life places like heaven and hell

We actually have a term for this kind of isekai, Bangsian Fantasy, named after Kendrick Bangs who wrote a few books using characters that have died in other authors' works, most notably Sherlock Holmes who dies at the end of "The Final Problem" in Arthur Conan Doyle's The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes.

There's also another major forbear to this kind of isekai from the Italian poet, Dante Alighieri, who wrote an epic poem called The Divine Comedy that details his fictionalized 1st person POV travel through Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise along with the guides of dead Roman poet Virgil and Dante's crush in Beatrice. Note: Dante put a lot of his political enemies in Hell.

Note: My WIP, Days of Blood and Roses: A Magical Girl Thriller, makes heavy use of this aspect of the isekai genre, which is why I can talk about this stuff without tripping myself up.

 

[OneRanter]

There are no intelligent deconstructions of the isekai genre. All isekai have fallen into the same uninspired tropes whether the authors realizes it or not.

If by deconstruction we mean something "different" of a reasonable quality and taking Isekai as its simplest concept (Another World) you have:

In Western Literature
Alice in Wonderland
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
Coraline
The Neverending Story
The Dark Tower (This one is debatable but still different enough to count)

In Light Novels
Konosuba
Youjo senki

As a Webserial
Discworld

This one is a spoiler

Wildbowpig's Parahumansverse


A Horror Videogame
Ib

There are plenty more but This Ranter does not have that much free time.

 

[Wohendum-Bluu]

I've actually seen this in manwha and manga I've read, where the MC (usually a woman from this world) get isekai'd into the world of their favorite book or video game, usually as the villainess who's destined the die, unless the MC does something to prevent that. I'll admit, I'm not as well versed in this area, so I'll just leave it at that.

With that said, however, I've seen uses of existing settings from other authors (usually from the public domain) reused and expanded upon in other authors' works. For instance, authors have used the setting and characters of Lewis Carroll's Alice books in their own works, such as Anna M. Richards in her novel, A New Alice in the Old Wonderland, in which the American Alice Lee enters the world of Lewis Carroll's Wonderland and expands on the things going on there.

Note: My WIP, Days of Blood and Roses: A Magical Girl Thriller, makes heavy use of this aspect of the isekai genre in the form of many of my characters going into the Wonderlands and Looking-Glass worlds of Lewis Carroll's Alice books and Edgar Allan Poe's nightmarish settings, as well as utilizing characters from those works and refashioning them into new iterations for my story. This is about as simple as I can state it overall.



There's a crazy conspiracy theory out there called the "Mandela Effect," which posits that the world as we know it (or have known it) has actually changed (or if I may be so bold as to use this thread's term, isekai'd) into a different place, and there are examples shown on the internet that purport to prove this. One is that everyone that remembers the kids' show as the Berenstein Bears is now called the Berenstain Bears.

Another famous example, which gives the "Mandela Effect" its name, is the case of Nelson Mandela, the first president of South Africa, whom many people have claimed to remember him dying in prison in the 1990s instead of dying in 2013 after his presidency.

Another famous example is the one in 1989 of a protestor in Tiananmen Square standing before a line of tanks, in which some people remember the tanks running him over in the video instead of trying to turn away to avoid running him over.

Note: My WIP, Days of Blood and Roses: A Magical Girl Thriller, mentions this aspect of the isekai genre in the form of one of my characters talking about the "Mandela Effect" when talking about false memories.



We actually have a term for this kind of isekai, Bangsian Fantasy, named after Kendrick Bangs who wrote a few books using characters that have died in other authors' works, most notably Sherlock Holmes who dies at the end of "The Final Problem" in Arthur Conan Doyle's The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes.

There's also another major forbear to this kind of isekai from the Italian poet, Dante Alighieri, who wrote an epic poem called The Divine Comedy that details his fictionalized 1st person POV travel through Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise along with the guides of dead Roman poet Virgil and Dante's crush in Beatrice. Note: Dante put a lot of his political enemies in Hell.

Note: My WIP, Days of Blood and Roses: A Magical Girl Thriller, makes heavy use of this aspect of the isekai genre, which is why I can talk about this stuff without tripping myself up.

I remember the Berenstein Bears and I STILL don't believe the crap about it now being Berenstain. It wasn't. I watched it as a kid even though it was already old and in rereun hell and even wrote an essay on it for a class assignment. My first essay I wrote ever. It was Berenstein. BERENSTEIN. Not what they say it is now. Oddly, I don't remember the Tianmen Square guy being run over. I remember the tanks stopping. And as for Mandela...I didn't know who he was or anything about him until it was too late for me to even have an opinion so I can't say anything one way or the other.

My favorite though is Looney Toons. It wasn't Looney "Tunes". It was Loony "Toons". Tunes don't even make sense if you know what the show is and what it was about and I don't get how no one sees the problem with this. It was Toons. Not Tunes. How can no one see the problem?