Litrpg system justification?

[ThisAdamGuy]

Google search "realism vs believability" and hopefully you will understand what I mean. Its not about the system being realistic, its about the system making sense because people enjoy things that make sense. making sense =/= realistic.

We all know how believability in fiction works. I was referring to you and GlassRose saying that a half baked litrpg system is basically the same as the laws of physics because litrpgs follow a vague set of rules.

what's the justification for the laws of physics, huh? Why do they function like they do, instead of in some other way? There's no answer, they just are.

"Their justified because we can study and understand them", but we don't know how they came about or how they are enforced, or what they are.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

We all know how believability in fiction works. I was referring to you and GlassRose saying that a half baked litrpg system is basically the same as the laws of physics because litrpgs follow a vague set of rules.

I never said that. I said that treating a system in the same way as the laws of physics makes the system more believeable.

Because the point is, your writing your story as if this "system" does exist, even though it obviously doesn't.

 

[BearlyAlive]

Easy explanation! The gods of those litrpgs are as disgusting weebnerds as the readers of litrpgs.

Which would be kinda cool as a background setting, now that I think about it... Gods playing D&D-esque Civ or something like Black&White

 

[2wordsperminute]

Depends on the genre. For example, comedy gets more of a pass

I think comedy should explain it. There's a lot of room for the explanation to be funny.

 

[GlassRose]

Why wouldn't they know about it? If you want to write a story where nobody knows why the system exists, that's fine, but why are you acting like it's a given that they wouldn't know?

Well, why would they know? People don't just start out with knowledge. They'd have to have a way to find out, and depending on its origin, they simply wouldn't have the ability to.

The laws of physics don't "just exist." They're justified because we can study and understand them. There is nothing in nature that is the equivalent of a literal rpg system. That's like saying "I don't know how lightning works, so that means I can turn you into a road."

They do though. There is nothing in nature the equivalent of a litrpg system, but why not? Why couldn't a different reality just, have a system, just as our reality just, has physics? Why are any of the things that do exist the ones that do? There's no reason or cause, at least that we know of, they simply are.

The whole litrpg system's justification comes down to the same sort of suspension of disbelief as any other fantastical element, like even magic. If it's just some kind of generic cosmic force that permeates the world, you can say that the litrpg system is how it interacts with or affects people.

Besides, most litrpg readers aren't that smart or critical thinking anyway, so they're not going to care even if it's shoe-horned into the story

I agreed with you as I read your first paragraph, but them, what the fuck man? What's going on with that second paragraph. You're making some bold declarations, just insulting the readers of an entire genre for no good reason. Intelligence doesn't mean one can't suspend disbelief, or enjoy something a bit irrational or flawed just because it's fun, not everything has to be serious and realistic all the time, and realistic world building tis not necessary for a good story, with good characters, and meaningful explorations of deeper concepts, internally consistent world building is what's important. You sound like everyone who writes off fantasy as a whole as 'not real literature' because it's 'not realistic' aka total narrow-minded elitist bullshit.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

They do though. There is nothing in nature the equivalent of a litrpg system, but why not? Why couldn't a different reality just, have a system, just as our reality just, has physics? Why are any of the things that do exist the ones that do? There's no reason or cause, at least that we know of, they simply are.

Saying anything as complex and multilayered as a full on rpg system can simply "happen" in nature is like saying that a cake just "happens" when you put the ingredients in the same room together.

 

[GlassRose]

Saying anything as complex and multilayered as a full on rpg system can simply "happen" in nature is like saying that a cake just "happens" when you put the ingredients in the same room together.

It really isn't equivalent. And, nature is complex and multifaceted, and constantly results in complex and multifaceted systems forming spontaneously. Life itself being a great example.

You're arbitrarily setting unjustifiable limits on what's possible, not in this reality where we can measure and observe the laws of physics, but in a hypothetical alternate reality with alternate laws of physics that you cannot interact with or measure in any way because it's outside of our reality.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

You're arbitrarily setting unjustifiable limits on what's possible, not in this reality where we can measure and observe the laws of physics, but in a hypothetical alternate reality with alternate laws of physics that you cannot interact with or measure in any way because it's outside of our reality.

Actually, I'm countering your earlier argument that the laws of physics are just like a vaguely defined litrpg system. If you want to write a litrpg without explaining how nature created a super complicated video game mechanic all on its own, then more power to you. But since this is a public forum, I can and will argue against the "I don't understand nature so it may as well be magic" stance you're so adamantly pushing.

 

[DeepWater]

One of the things that's always stopped me from writing a litrpg is that I can never come up with an in-universe way to justify the system being there. I don't like the "literally takes place inside a video game" approach, but just straight up implementing video game mechanics into reality itself feels contrived unless you have a really good reason for it being there. Just saying "it's there cuz litrpg" strikes me as lazy writing.

What about you? When you read a litrpg, how important is it that the author justifies the rpg system they've put in place? Do you need there to be a reason for it, or can you overlook that because systems are just something litrpgs have to have?

God is a gamer. ?

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Actually, I'm countering your earlier argument that the laws of physics are just like a vaguely defined litrpg system. If you want to write a litrpg without explaining how nature created a super complicated video game mechanic all on its own, then more power to you. But since this is a public forum, I can and will argue against the "I don't understand nature so it may as well be magic" stance you're so adamantly pushing.

Except the argument is not "I don't understand nature" - it's "Nature works differently in this Other World(TM)"

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

Except the argument is not "I don't understand nature" - it's "Nature works differently in this Other World(TM)"

No, the argument was that there was no way the characters would know anything about the system (as if he gets to decide what the characters in other people's stories are and aren't aware of) and then followed that up with "but it's not like we know how nature works anyway."

 

[Cipiteca396]

No, the argument was that there was no way the characters would know anything about the system (as if he gets to decide what the characters in other people's stories are and aren't aware of) and then followed that up with "but it's not like we know how nature works anyway."

You should probably pick a single argument and stick to it, instead of trying to argue in eight directions at once. Or just stop arguing like that one post you made said you were going to. You're clearly stressing out about something when you shouldn't be.

is like saying that a cake just "happens" when you put the ingredients in the same room together.

At the risk of upsetting you more, I'll say that this is exactly how life was formed. Theoretically.
A bunch of ingredients got dropped in the same place, and then after a few eons, bam! Cake Life!
And that life took a bunch more ingredients, and made even more complex cake life,
and that life thought it would be funny to mix some ingredients in different ways and made life Cake!

What about you? When you read a litrpg, how important is it that the author justifies the rpg system they've put in place? Do you need there to be a reason for it, or can you overlook that because systems are just something litrpgs have to have?

As a reader, I don't need a justification. I don't need a justification for magic existing, or dragons, or space-time wormholes. If it's in the story, it's already justified. Seeing is believing, and all that. That's how real world science works. I see something, and I try to understand it. I don't need to already have an explanation for why it's there before I believe it. I need to see more to understand why its there.

As an author, I can be satisfied with pretty simple explanations. It was necessary to make the story work; is totally viable. It's a side effect of mana existing; acceptable. A god did it- A group fighting the end of reality did it- A wizard did it as a practical joke- all acceptable. 'Thought it would be cool'- The best explanation.

Can I be knocked out of my suspension of disbelief? Of course. Honestly, one of my biggest complaints about LitRPG is leveling up through killing. There's a huge loss of energy each time something dies. Often, the amount of killing that has to happen for a creature to reach even a relatively low level is genocide-count. And 90% of that experience is wasted when the killer dies. Just straight up disappears. Hate it. Technically that doesn't actually knock me out of the story though, cuz I can just ignore it...

Whatever, I've spent too long on this.

 

[Deleted member 177167]

In my opinion, it only works if the setting is a simulation of sorts and it is somehow connected to a game-like system in a virtual setting.
It's pure fantasy but you have UI? I'm not even bothering, even if you try to make it a twist down the road that it was all a simulation.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

Saying anything as complex and multilayered as a full on rpg system can simply "happen" in nature is like saying that a cake just "happens" when you put the ingredients in the same room together.

At the risk of upsetting you more, I'll say that this is exactly how life was formed. Theoretically.

As Cipiteca stated, out best "scientific" (lol) explaination for the creation of life is exactly this.

I'll also state that people have come up with other ways to explain life and the universe. The obvious contender to this theory being creation by God.

And thats the problem with the study of science in general. It tells you how things behave, but not what or even why. Like, we don't technically know what causes gravity. We know how gravity works, but not what it is, or why. Our best guess is a particle called the graviton, but it's not like we have proof that such a thing exists.

And this leads us back to the original argument:

what's the justification for the laws of physics, huh? Why do they function like they do, instead of in some other way? Why are the universal constants what they are? Why are they constants?
There's no answer, they just are.

From a scientific point of view, we know that the laws of physics exist and we know (some of) how they work, but we cannot scientifically answer the questions of why they exist, or what causes their existence.

Also, forgive me if I am mistaken here, Adam, but you seem to have the viewpoint that nature created the laws of physics? Wouldn't that imply that nature existed before the laws of physics existed? Hence natural objects could interact with natural objects before/outside the laws of physics?

 

[cabbag3]

Is this a Suspension of Disbelief vs Plothole Argument?
I don't really mind the LitRPG stuff as long as they are consistent within the narratives own rules.

 

[GlassRose]

No, the argument was that there was no way the characters would know anything about the system (as if he gets to decide what the characters in other people's stories are and aren't aware of) and then followed that up with "but it's not like we know how nature works anyway."

I said that you can't assume that the characters will know, in general. Because if the system was made millions of years ago by a long dead civilization, or some gods that have since abandoned the world (or just don't communicate directly), or if it has existed since the beginning of time, how the fuck would anyone know where it came from?

From their perspective, it just, has always has existed, and they can't just ask whoever created it if they did it, and even if they ask everyone they can, and everyone says no, well, they still can't be sure if it's just always existed or if it was just made even longer ago by people they have no trace of anymore.

And if the character's don't know, and it's not a plot point or anything, then what does it matter where it came from? Where is the reader gonna learn where it came from? If they don't, and it's not relevant to the building of the world that characters will actually interact with, then it doesn't matter.

 

[FallenMoon3]

Just invent that it was made by someone, a very powerful being, like in Return of Gluttony or SS.

 

[LesserCodex]

It's for many of the reasons mentioned above I made a reason for the system in my story to exist and I've already dropped a small part of it being the result of the war between Giants and Dragons. Gods don't exist in my story not them being all-powerful and all-knowing. While they are worshipped as such they're just unbelievably powerful beings and the first to use the system, which was created by dragons when the giants were slowly winning the war.

The system was made to maximise one's potential and help one become strong enough to face the giants alongside the dragons since they were losing, ie: experience, essence, level-ups and evolutions.

I plan to sprinkle it out through the story as the origin of some races, such the beast-kin, descendants from the first beasts who used the system and grew strong enough to fight alongside dragons, they evolved into humanoid forms which introduced new races to the world. (quick example: the Panther-kin race, my Mc, like all other panther-kin, originate from the first panther beast to become divine, as such is called the panther god as their original ancestor.)

The system still functions as many outer beings want to invade and dominate the world, giving it a purpose and reason to continue existing.

 

[Vnator]

L

reason is irrelevant only the premise matters. why is there a game-like system in this world? who cares. why is there a unique and bizarre class that only the mc can have? who gives a shit. why does this world have 80% monster girls population? why wouldnt it

Like, you can make whatever premise you want, but everything that follows has to make sense in the context of that premise. And stories don't exist in a vacuum. If you use cliches people are sick of, they won't like it unless you do something different with them.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

Systems in general are mostly just a tool to fulfilling a power fantasy. Sometimes they're fun, sometimes not.

Systems I feel are like the natural progression of the Cultivation novel into something that the author as the system uses to interact with their character. It's not meant to be realistic, and in most cases it's similar to how someone would live life playing an MMORPG.