Worst Writing Trope

Zirrboy

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Is it really delusional if it's true. If being able to kill anyone with just their name and face doesn't make you a god by some definition I don't know what does.
Delusional about his intellectual capabilities.
He gets access to the meetings of the police group around L and learns that they suspect the culprit is from their region because of the first killing.
Now to react impulsively like he does is completely realistic for a normal person, but that sudden worldwide action would not throw them off their first clue but rather feed them the follow ups that he's capable of it, and that he knows of their discussions didn't seem all that unexpected to me.
 

TheEldritchGod

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wait what-
Well, you see the problem is, people don't understand communism, especially most authors.
If you read the original, the final stage of communism is the complete elimination of all governments and the creation of a world full of communes that everyone lives in. Ironically, for all my hatred of communism, I actually think the final stage is doable. The problem is, WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL THE PROCEEDING STEPS WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE FINAL STAGE COMMUNISM?

Confused?

Ah. Allow me to explain.

Capitalism: A guy walking through the desert with a bar of gold. A man with a bottle of water. Exchange gold for water.
Socialism: The guy is clearly dying, you just give him the water.

Capitalism is an exchange of goods and services, whereas socialism is From each by their ability, to each their need.

So, as I've demonstrated, you can have socialism between TWO PEOPLE, just like you can have Capitalism between two people. In a way, those two people, for a brief moment, are a commune.

Now take your average family. NO. Not YOUR dysfunctional family, an average one.
Does dad hand the kid a bill for 685k when he turns 18? No. A family, at least internally, is socialism.

Now take a small business of about 50 people. Ignore everything OUTSIDE the business. Look at the INTERNAL transactions of money/resources/time/manpower ONLY. Is that INTERNAL exchange capitalism, or socialism?

Spoiler: It's socialism.

People think a business is Capitalism because it's a BUSINESS, but if you ignore what everyone tells you and look at what ACTUALLY HAPPENS, the HR department doesn't charge sales for supplying them with new members. The janitorial department doesn't expect tips for cleaning up and emptying the trash. Each department and each member of the department works for the betterment of the company, from each by their ability, and to each department by their need.

Socialism... INTERNALLY.

The capitalism is when the collective unit known as a SMALL BUSINESS interacts with external actors. Now, you might say, "HOLD IT ELDRITCH, don't employees get paid to work there?" Ah. Yes. That is an EXTERNAL transaction to pull people into the collective. However, what they do AFTER being paid to work there, the internal "economy" of the business is socialism.

In short, you are a member of many a "commune" right now. The only difference between Final stage communism and the current world is that these communes interact with one another through capitalism (usually)

So communism is about destroying society only to recreate society exactly the way it currently is.

Instead, authors get hung up on the BS of communism and don't understand how it would actually function in the real world.

The problem with most socialistic "communes" is they work best on the small scale. Under the Dunbar empathy limit, you can "know" everyone in your "commune", be it a business, a family, or just a sports team. If you know someone's name and have vague feelings of connection to them, you aren't likely to screw them over.

However, when a company climbs into the thousands, people don't know each other anymore. So you need something else to hold the collective together. Usually a cause or a cult of personality. Apple Computer is a great example. Steve Jobs ran the place as a small business. It grew bigger. He lost control. It fumbled. He retook control. He built a cult following. The company prospered. He died. The place fell apart. Why?

The larger a socialistic collective, the more likely corruption will occur.

Capitalism is the opposite.

Socialism works GREAT on the small scale, but Capitalism SUCKS on the small scale. The ideal example is Oil.

You got what? 5 oil companies. These huge bloated "collectives" are corrupt as fuck, but externally, they have no competitors. That's a LACK of capitalism. Where are all the problems with oil and the byproducts of oil? In the big companies that become corrupted because they are SO BLOATED past the Dunbar empathy limit, it is not funny, but ALSO, they have no competitors, so they get to screw everyone.

HOWEVER...

Look at Gas stations.

There are many gas stations. If you look at gas stations and how much profit they make, it's not much. They get pennies per gallon sold. There is MUCH capitalism on the retail level, therefore, the gas stations aren't the ones screwing the consumer.

What do authors do?

They point to Large companies and say, "EVIL CAPITALIST COMPANY" when the fact of the matter is, internally, it is a MASSIVE socialistic commune and because it is so big, it is corrupt. The company has no competitors, so it is "EVIL CAPITALISM" when the truth is, a lack of competitors is a LACK OF CAPITALISM.

So my problem is, that people misapply the label of Capitalism to Communism, and think, for this reason, communism is good.

Communism is good... on a small scale. Anything over 250 people starts to have problems. Capitalism is good, on a large scale. I would be terrified if... say... the US Military was internally capitalist. Where platoons had to buy their own weapons and captains owned the warships they commanded. That would be horrifying. Most militaries are, internally, socialist. You don't have to BID on getting Artillery support. You don't have to pay the tanks coming to back you up by the mile. Large militaries normally get around the corruption problem with Jingoism. This has a whole other set of problems because it devalues the individual, but that's another discussion.

Socialism/communes have their place. They exist, form, and then fall apart all the time, but because people are so hung up on words and definition and their ideology, and not on actions or actual results, they confuse things.

Thus I hate it when authors take the easy route of just continuing the misconceptions about communism in general.
 

RepresentingDesire

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So nearly every Japanese harem protag ever? Yep. I hate it too. Even worse are the stories where MC seems deathly allergic of pretty women and erections, and nearly has a heart attack when a woman shows any interest. And these are teenage guys? Bullshit. Any teen guy with even a modicum of interest in women would already be stripping and leaping at any half pretty woman with breasts if she showed the interest and acceptance. I call bullshit on anyone saying otherwise. Hormones and all that.
Well I have no problem with such a thing if it weren't for isekai.
 

Sylver

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hypnosis/mind control. crutches for lazy amateur writing, skipping all the fun gaslighting, manipulation, and psychological struggles.

wish fulfillment with mc getting instantly ripped, handsome, and a 19 incher.
What if a story includes both manipulation and mind control, could it work?
 

RecursiveDescent

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Delusional about his intellectual capabilities.
He gets access to the meetings of the police group around L and learns that they suspect the culprit is from their region because of the first killing.
Now to react impulsively like he does is completely realistic for a normal person, but that sudden worldwide action would not throw them off their first clue but rather feed them the follow ups that he's capable of it, and that he knows of their discussions didn't seem all that unexpected to me.
He's not really delusional about that either. His emotional instability was his biggest weakness.
If he really wanted to he could have fallen for that bait and then just ignored L and he still would never be caught. Hell if at any point he took the eye deal he would have been unstoppable.
Honestly he never even experimented with the death note to its fullest potential, it's not just the power to kill people with a name you can basically control fate itself..

Imagine writing about someone around you knowing you're going to get into a fight, and describe that they die after witnessing you win the fight.
(Describing yourself in terms of appearance and not writing your own name in there of course.)
 
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Zirrboy

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dodgable

He's not really delusional about that either. His emotional instability was his biggest weakness.
If he really wanted to he could have fallen for that bait and then just ignored L and he still would never be caught. Hell if at any point he took the eye deal he would have been unstoppable.
Honestly he never even experimented with the death note to its fullest potential, it's not just the power to kill people with a name you can basically control fate itself..

Imagine writing about someone around you knowing you're going to get into a fight, and describe that they die after witnessing you win the fight.
(Describing yourself in terms of appearance and not writing your own name in there of course.)
I think our takes on him are overall pretty similar in that regard, but many fans of the story, like the one I initially responded to, seem to hold him in in my opinion undeserved regard in terms of his competence.
 

greyblob

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What if a story includes both manipulation and mind control, could it work?
no, not if it is a primary tool for a character. i have not seen a novel that that utilizes both successfully. it is always mind control/impulsion/hypnosis being used as a lazy way to 'force' someone to do something.
 

Zagaroth

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if he can only kill and not create anything then he's not really a god, he's just a murderer
I specifically call out the Power of Creation as one aspect of divinity in my work. Though that comes with a pointed reminder to a Dungeon Core that true creation alone does not a divinity make.
 

Thraben

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The 'unproblematic fantasy world' trope.

So many, too many authors write worlds with completely unproblematic politics, no societal tensions, and no chance of anything bad happening to anyone important.

Here's the thing. Someone, somewhere, is going to yell at this comment 'WISH FULFILLMENT,YOU JUST DON'T GET IT', and I'm going to call them an idiot for it. Wish fulfillment implies there is a wish, hope, or desire being fulfilled and that fulfillment is WORTH READING. An impossibly perfect world is not wish fulfillment, it's a lack of fictional creativity and lack of understanding of real world sociology. Wish fulfillment would be the ability to ignore or outright CHANGE those issues, since THAT is something that many people hope for and wish will happen but that can't happen, AND it is interesting, unlike a world with nothing going wrong with it.

Like, if it takes me less than fifty seconds to come up with a reason why your goldilocks candyland fantasy setting should actually be the same socio-economic political hellscape as the real world, you should probably reevaluate why you wanted a goldilocks candyland setting and maybe check if the thing you want is better provided by a flawed world being fixed by YOUR story.
 

KonoKei

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Isekai, specifically the first chapter where they meet the goddess or whatever and have to act all surprised.
 

PancakesWitch

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you don't have to create to be a god, it's not like the geniune shinigami in his world do anything special the only difference is that they're immortal and depending on how you define a god you don't necessarily have to never be able to die, even the shinigami could die if they put themselves at risk.
everyone can kill though, the only thing that makes the shinigami special is that they can kill stealthily, lol
 

Zirrboy

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The 'unproblematic fantasy world' trope.

So many, too many authors write worlds with completely unproblematic politics, no societal tensions, and no chance of anything bad happening to anyone important.

Here's the thing. Someone, somewhere, is going to yell at this comment 'WISH FULFILLMENT,YOU JUST DON'T GET IT', and I'm going to call them an idiot for it. Wish fulfillment implies there is a wish, hope, or desire being fulfilled and that fulfillment is WORTH READING. An impossibly perfect world is not wish fulfillment, it's a lack of fictional creativity and lack of understanding of real world sociology. Wish fulfillment would be the ability to ignore or outright CHANGE those issues, since THAT is something that many people hope for and wish will happen but that can't happen, AND it is interesting, unlike a world with nothing going wrong with it.

Like, if it takes me less than fifty seconds to come up with a reason why your goldilocks candyland fantasy setting should actually be the same socio-economic political hellscape as the real world, you should probably reevaluate why you wanted a goldilocks candyland setting and maybe check if the thing you want is better provided by a flawed world being fixed by YOUR story.
Counter take:
Most of the time that's worse than just not having the problem exist at all.
The level of detail consideration required to make 'solving' at all believable or engaging is prohibitive and how stupid would an author have to be to draw attention to a distinct weakpoint in their worldbuilding intentionally?

As for the argument that it's not wish fulfillment, I'd like to point out that pretending your problems don't exist is a very real thing. Sure, there's more interesting ways to do it in a story, but wanting someone with as superficial a grasp on economics as to consider their utopia working to try to give you that doesn't seem very promising.
 

Thraben

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Counter take:
Most of the time that's worse than just not having the problem exist at all.
The level of detail consideration required to make 'solving' at all believable or engaging is prohibitive and how stupid would an author have to be to draw attention to a distinct weakpoint in their worldbuilding intentionally?

As for the argument that it's not wish fulfillment, I'd like to point out that pretending your problems don't exist is a very real thing. Sure, there's more interesting ways to do it in a story, but wanting someone with as superficial a grasp on economics as to consider their utopia working to try to give you that doesn't seem very promising.
Counter-counter point: I'm now obligated to call you an idiot (I don't mean it, you actually do have a valid point, which I'm going to dismantle now)

Beyond that I'd need you to evidence "Most of the time that's worse than just not having the problem exist at all", the concept you're putting forward that it's a weakpoint in the worldbuilding of an author is asinine in context with my post. It seems pretty obvious to me that you conflated my separated points together with your assumption that my problem has anything to do with wish fulfillment or authors being incompetent.
I'll disambiguate. My points are:
1. I find completely uncomplicated and perfect settings boring.
2. I'm specifically NOT calling my complaints as being about wish fulfillment stories.
3. I'm calling out authors for not being creative enough to logically think through the way their settings would actually work when they wouldn't work as perfectly as presented.

So, now that I've clarified why you're arguing against something I haven't said, let's disassemble what that argument is.

1. "detail consideration required to make 'solving' at all believable or engaging is prohibitive"
Again, I'm going to need you to evidence this. As an author and reader of stories doing both the thing I said I didn't like and the thing you are trying to imply I don't like, and the right ways to do both. I have exactly zero trouble believing this is not an evidently achievable goal for any author actually trying to do this.

2. "how stupid would an author have to be to draw attention to a distinct weakpoint in their worldbuilding"
This statement, beyond being reductive, seems to miss even your own point. If an author creates a setting with deliberate and clear flaws because those flaws make the world feel more realistic and immersive or because they serve some narrative purpose, it just isn't a 'distinct weakpoint', it's an intentional writing decision that serves some purpose. I also disagree with your calling an author trying to do this stupid, mostly because it seems awfully disrespectful to a hypothetical someone who is still already putting in immense hypothetical effort in the first place.

3. "As for the argument that it's not wish fulfillment"
Again, I wasn't arguing that even a little bit, but I'd be beating a dead horse at this point to explain why.

4. "I'd like to point out that pretending your problems don't exist is a very real thing."
I'm glad you agreed with my core observation on what wish fulfillment is.

5. "wanting someone with as superficial a grasp on economics as to consider their utopia working to try to give you that doesn't seem very promising."
Again, I'm concerned with your tone, but I also can't really comprehend what this is saying so I'm going to dissect it piecemeal.
A. 'with as superficial a grasp on economics as to consider their utopia working'
Ignoring that again, my original point very specifically isn't about this, I'm unsure what this point is trying to say beyond being a general insult towards authors for some reason.
B. 'wanting someone...to try to give you that doesn't seem very promising'
I'm not sure what you think I'm asking for to claim it's unlikely I'll get it. I called for a specific subset of stories as having settings that don't make sense by virtue of the author clearly not putting enough thought into how they would actually work. The mountain of stories that do have settings with a lot of thought put into them and do satisfy the implied conditions immediately and eminently disprove this claim if that's what you're talking about.
If you're saying that the specific *authors* I'm calling out are unlikely to succeed at making their settings better in this way, I'm sorry to be the one to inform you of the malleable nature of authorial skill and the linear nature of time. There is, once again, exactly zero doubt in my mind that those authors are capable of becoming better.

I hope I've interpreted your argument correctly, and I look forwards to a reevaluation of it in light of my clarifications.
 

Zirrboy

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I'd need you to evidence "Most of the time that's worse than just not having the problem exist at all"
A world that does feature political or economic troubles and has the protagonist pave over them with little engagement. Rigid caste society with a talented protagonist lacking rank? Luckily for them there's 'good' nobles (usually the powerful ones) who are open minded about that sort of thing. Weak and bankrupt kingdom on the brink of collapse? MC is here for the rescue with ideas that somehow nobody else came up with.

(This is entirely personal opinion. Me abhorring these kinds of archetypes and someone else having a blast reading them are in no way mutually exclusive.)

Now much like you I don't have much appreciation for unchallenging settings, but them ignoring the matter at least takes up less of the story and maybe allows me to draw some semblance of enjoyment from the remainder of it.

2. I'm specifically NOT calling my complaints as being about wish fulfillment stories.
This one I struggle to see. The only line of reasoning in this part
Here's the thing. Someone, somewhere, is going to yell at this comment 'WISH FULFILLMENT,YOU JUST DON'T GET IT', and I'm going to call them an idiot for it. Wish fulfillment implies there is a wish, hope, or desire being fulfilled and that fulfillment is WORTH READING. An impossibly perfect world is not wish fulfillment, it's a lack of fictional creativity and lack of understanding of real world sociology. Wish fulfillment would be the ability to ignore or outright CHANGE those issues, since THAT is something that many people hope for and wish will happen but that can't happen, AND it is interesting, unlike a world with nothing going wrong with it.
that I am able to discern is "You can't argue that it can be Ok as wishfulfillment either because it doesn't reflect the wants of that audience either". That or you're accusing authors who don't match a specific idea of what a story should include of lacking creativity, in which case I'd like to return your concerns about tone.

Again, I'm going to need you to evidence this. As an author and reader of stories doing both the thing I said I didn't like and the thing you are trying to imply I don't like, and the right ways to do both. I have exactly zero trouble believing this is not an evidently achievable goal for any author actually trying to do this.
(I'll assume that the 'not' before 'an evidently' is a typo because that's the only way I can make sense of that sentence in the context, if that's wrong please do clarify)
What I mean here is the same as I described in the beginning. As for the generalization of you meeting your own standards: If you considered everyone capable of ripping apart candyland economy in 50 seconds, why point that out if you think the author will also always be aware?

If they're not, I don't think them writing more about that aspect would lead to a better story. And if they do understand they obviously don't want to write like you, which I think to some extent would end even worse than someone interested but inexperienced for enjoyment if they did comply.

I'm not trying to blame anyone for either, the former probably coincides with the latter if they never felt the need to deepen their understanding.

What I mean by weakpoint isn't intentional 'flaws' in the settings, but logic errors that your initial post was about.

I'm glad you agreed with my core observation on what wish fulfillment is.
Ignore in the sense of "pretending it's not there", not "not being affected by it", that was worded poorly.
 

MisterEnigmatic

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“Killing doesn’t affect me at all”

Oh phew I was worried you’d be an interesting character
One of my biggest gripes with Kuro no Maou was how quickly Kurono got over killing people. He has this breakdown when he finds out he killed a fellow human, and it's never touch upon again. He just (sort of) gets over it.
 

Sylver

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no, not if it is a primary tool for a character. i have not seen a novel that that utilizes both successfully. it is always mind control/impulsion/hypnosis being used as a lazy way to 'force' someone to do something.
Interesting, would there be any routes where mind control or mind alteration could work without the implications or weaknesses of the trope coming off as lazy writing?

I'm asking because it's a theme from the main antagonist of my novel that they wield over the protagonist, that being manipulation and past inflicted trauma.
 

greyblob

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Interesting, would there be any routes where mind control or mind alteration could work without the implications or weaknesses of the trope coming off as lazy writing?
sure. but it is not something i have seen yet. i find no art in the brute-force method of 'mind control'. its like flipping a switch as opposed to the planning and studying and building the psychology of a character and working around it.

i would not call it lazy. its a shortcut. a crutch. i do not know what your story or antagonist is about so i cant say
 
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