When does a character go from flawed to unlikable?

[CountVanBadger]

When I wrote Miranda as one of the main characters in XNPC, I wanted her to be heavily flawed but still sympathetic. According to the comments I'm getting on Royal Road, I failed at that pretty hard. We're less than twenty chapters in, and people are already saying that she's completely unforgivable.

The story starts with her abandoning her post as lookout while her teammates sleep to go see her fantasy-comatose boyfriend, Jeremy, which sets off a chain reaction that ends with Jeremy waking up from his not-coma and the rookie in Miranda's party getting killed.

Miranda's whole thing is divided loyalties. She was pretty much an abandoned child growing up, and the only person she was close to was Jeremy, her best friend and eventual boyfriend. So when the world ends and Jeremy gets put in a not-coma, waking him up is her main goal. But she's also loyal to her party, who she's been adventuring with for over a decade at this point.

When the rookie dies, the party leader is justifiably pissed off and kicks Miranda from the group. Miranda makes getting Jeremy to safety her new goal, but once again her loyalties are split because her old party is being hunted by a rival guild, and it's all her fault. The guilt leads to her repeatedly leaving Jeremy alone in this dangerous, unknown world so she can try to go and help her friends. She knows it's wrong, but the guilt is more than she can handle, so rather than decide which is most important to her, she tries to do both at once, only making things worse for her and everyone else until everything culminates in a gigantic climactic battle where she makes a horrible sacrifice in a last ditch attempt to set things right.

None of this is presented as a good thing. Miranda spends the first couple books making the wrong decision at every given opportunity, but the story and the characters are constantly calling her out on it. It's also made clear that she's a heavily traumatized person who's struggling with more problems than even she knows she has. She also never does any of this out of malice. Every bad decision she makes is a desperate attempt to fix the problems her previous bad decisions caused, which just inadvertently creates even more problems. So in that way, I was hoping they she would still be sympathetic.

In your opinion, where does the line get drawn between a flawed but sympathetic character, and a permanently unlikable one?

 

[Fairemont]

Generally, this line is crossed when the character refuses to acknowledge their flaws, and/or refuses to do anything about them.

Someone can constantly screw up and remain likeable, so long as they make meaningful progress towards improvement and understand that they need to improve.

It also helps if a lot of the problems are happening to the character rather than caused by the character, or shift towards this.

If every problem is caused by the character and their flaws, then people will become frustrated with them. However, if the problems happen to them, rather than because of them, and then are exacerbated by their flaws, readers will remain tolerant longer as it is not purely their fault every time.

The core of it is thus acknowledging the issues and meaningful change.

If those exist, itll probably work out.

 

[JordanIda]

1. The character is implausible (either due to the flaw itself or failure to adjust the rest of the character's persona to it).
2. The character fails reader expectations (same dynamic).
3. The character somehow triggers the reader (same dynamic).

Reader expectations are depressingly formulaic. There's a narrow band defining what works. Readers have a poor tolerance of deviation from it.

 

[Th3Breadnought]

I feel like I can only speak for myself, but:

1. Weight of flaws against redeeming qualities. If all I'm seeing are flaws and their costs, with very little competence/virtue/other qualities I can sympathize with or root for, the scales start to weigh against the character.
2. Do their flaws primarily limit themselves (relatable, realistic, clear character growth opportunity) or inflict burden and costs on other characters (especially ones I like, or who can't completely recover from damage done)? Because this hits very close to home for myself, and probably lots of other people. Characters who cause problems for others, then don't take accountability when they leave someone else holding the bag. That's like everyone's bad breakup/bad boss/ex friend PTSD story that makes it really hard to compartmentalize.
3. Is the story narration putting onus on the people impacted by the character's flaws to just accept them and put up with it rather than treating their experiences as proportionally deserving sympathy?

Those are my big ones.

 

[Jaymi]

When I wrote Miranda as one of the main characters in XNPC, I wanted her to be heavily flawed but still sympathetic. According to the comments I'm getting on Royal Road, I failed at that pretty hard. We're less than twenty chapters in, and people are already saying that she's completely unforgivable.

The story starts with her abandoning her post as lookout while her teammates sleep to go see her fantasy-comatose boyfriend, Jeremy, which sets off a chain reaction that ends with Jeremy waking up from his not-coma and the rookie in Miranda's party getting killed.

Miranda's whole thing is divided loyalties. She was pretty much an abandoned child growing up, and the only person she was close to was Jeremy, her best friend and eventual boyfriend. So when the world ends and Jeremy gets put in a not-coma, waking him up is her main goal. But she's also loyal to her party, who she's been adventuring with for over a decade at this point.

When the rookie dies, the party leader is justifiably pissed off and kicks Miranda from the group. Miranda makes getting Jeremy to safety her new goal, but once again her loyalties are split because her old party is being hunted by a rival guild, and it's all her fault. The guilt leads to her repeatedly leaving Jeremy alone in this dangerous, unknown world so she can try to go and help her friends. She knows it's wrong, but the guilt is more than she can handle, so rather than decide which is most important to her, she tries to do both at once, only making things worse for her and everyone else until everything culminates in a gigantic climactic battle where she makes a horrible sacrifice in a last ditch attempt to set things right.

None of this is presented as a good thing. Miranda spends the first couple books making the wrong decision at every given opportunity, but the story and the characters are constantly calling her out on it. It's also made clear that she's a heavily traumatized person who's struggling with more problems than even she knows she has. She also never does any of this out of malice. Every bad decision she makes is a desperate attempt to fix the problems her previous bad decisions caused, which just inadvertently creates even more problems. So in that way, I was hoping they she would still be sympathetic.

In your opinion, where does the line get drawn between a flawed but sympathetic character, and a permanently unlikable one?

In my opinion the line gets drawn the moment a character's flaw(s) becomes their entire identity. Completely overshadowing whatever good qualities they might have.

As someone who is also writing a pretty heavily flawed character, it's very hard to balance their flaws so that they don't feel like they're taking the actual character's personality away. But maybe that's just a skill issue on my part.

 

[JordanIda]

Just to expand on BreadNought (above) and a couple other comments:

There is a prevailing myth that authors can let the story go where it takes them, or that the characters in the story can lead the author on some path, or that the characters can find their voice or grow in the role as they please. Authors sometimes think the story can reveal itself to them. There are many ways of saying it, but it's all the same thing: balderdash. Complete and utter balderdash.

The story does not have a will of its own. The characters do not have wills of their own. The entire edifice has one source, and one source only: the writer. The writer controls characters, dialogue, situations, everything. Or fails to do so. Or creates a big ugly mess by inattention, by neglect, by chemical abuse, by ill advised attempts to multitask, whatever.

If the reader hates the character, the fault is not with the character's peccadillos. The fault is not with the stars. The fault is not with the situations the characters find themselves in. The fault is not with how other characters interact with the "problem child." And the fault is certainly not with the reader's failure to understand the story's intent.

The fault is with the writer alone. It's all a figment of the writer's imagination. The whole thing, every word.

 

[Anonjohn20]

When does a character go from flawed to unlikable?

It is highly subjective (in the ScribbleHub story "Amaranthine," I find the character Kennedy to be extremely unlikeable; she had 0 redeeming qualities from chapter 12 to chapter 39, yet, because she's the author's self-insert, everyone else in the story treats her like a saint: "Oh, she's so helpful, so kind; you better not ever harm her, MC," as she's constantly being emotionally manipulative to the MC). Some fans will always find the character unlikeable. I remember in seasons 1 and 2 of SW Clone Wars, Ahsoka got so many haters that by the time SW Rebels came out, people were gaslighting each other into saying it was a better show; it wasn't. By the time she was punished, grew up, and became a better person, they had already stopped watching.

You can minimize the hatred towards her by:
1. Making sure she faces consequences for her fuck-ups.
2. Make some of the fuck-ups stuff that happened to her by circumstances out of her control rather than by her choices.
3. Give her good qualities as well as bad ones. They can't all be bad. Something needs to redeem her.
4. Make sure the story doesn't frame her as right or reward her for doing wrong things.
5. Last but not least, don't make them annoying. Society treats annoying people worse than people who committed murder in the past.

A flawed character makes you think, "I see their imperfections." An unlikeable character makes you think, "I would never want this person around me or my loved ones."

Honestly, the audience in RR is hard to cater to as well. They have short attention spans and shorter fuses.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

When the flaw becomes an annoyance or when it signals that without said flaw, the story wouldn't be an idiot plot.

 

[Anonjohn20]

When the flaw becomes an annoyance or when it signals that without said flaw, the story wouldn't be an idiot plot.

Oh, that's a good one. I hate it when naive MCs needlessly prolong the plot. I was reading a Japanese comic where the MC met some bandits that would pillage an innocent village, kill the men, and turn the women into slaves; he then finds out one of his love interests was a victim of their scheme in the past. The moron was about to let them go free; the retarded plot only progressed because the victimized love interest challenged the leader of the group to a duel.

 

[Envylope]

If someone is bad at painting, rejected from art school, and then they strive to get better, that is a good flawed person.

If someone is bad at painting, rejected from art school, and do bad things because of it, that is a bad flawed person.

 

[Tabula_Rasa]

where does the line get drawn

To me?

When you

story starts with her abandoning her post as lookout

IMO if you want people to like a flawed person, dont start with the flaw.

First impression last long~~~~

If you start with a flaw and come back with "good" after, it feels forced and tend not to stick.

 

[Anonjohn20]

To me?

When you


IMO if you want people to like a flawed person, dont start with the flaw.

First impression last long~~~~

If you start with a flaw and come back with "good" after, it feels forced and tend not to stick.

Ooh, that's another great point. It takes 14 to 18 good impressions to change someone's mind if their first impression of you is a bad one. If a second bad impression appears, it'll take even more. Plus, most readers won't stick around long enough to reach 14 to 18 good impressions if they are already not enjoying the story.

 

[CountVanBadger]

dont start with the flaw

The first time we see her, she's rescuing her helpless fantasy-comatose boyfriend from a monster, talking about how much she misses him, and promising to wake him up soon. We don't find out she abandoned her post until the next chapter.

 

[Tabula_Rasa]

The first time we see her, she's rescuing her helpless fantasy-comatose boyfriend from a monster, talking about how much she misses him, and promising to wake him up soon. We don't find out she abandoned her post until the next chapter.

Just to clarify.
Is that the same event?

Did she go save the bf, by abandoning her post? Or separate?

 

[CountVanBadger]

Just to clarify.
Is that the same event?

Did she go save the bf, by abandoning her post? Or separate?

She abandoned her post to go see him, found him getting attacked, and rescued him.

When she goes back to camp and gets caught, they tell her that mobs only attack NPCs (which is what Jeremy is) when there's a Hero (which is what Miranda is) nearby to save them. I might delete that part, though.

 

[Tabula_Rasa]

She abandoned her post to go see him, found him getting attacked, and rescued him.

When she goes back to camp and gets caught, they tell her that mobs only attack NPCs (which is what Jeremy is) when there's a Hero (which is what Miranda is) nearby to save them. I might delete that part, though.

Yeah~ I feel like the save bf bit is not something showing a positive trait but just the symptomof the flaw that also drove her to abandon her post.

But I dont know, if you have some kinda redemption arc maybe it will work out.

Good luck.

 

[BearlyAlive]

I find RR people to be a weird bunch. They're either supportive or they're the kind of "Uhhh, Ackschually!" people that think themselves genius while demanding a murderhobo edgelord sigma grindset alpha male MC in a fluffy rated E for everyone slice-of-life romcom would be the pinnacle of writing.

If your character regrets their flaws and tries to do good while jumping from one landmine to the next, or the reader understands their struggles, there's place for a redemption arc. If your character bulldozes through mistakes of their own making without reflection or regret, chances are you created either an idiot or a psychopath.

 

[Th3Breadnought]

I find RR people to be a weird bunch. They're either supportive or they're the kind of "Uhhh, Ackschually!" people that think themselves genius while demanding a murderhobo edgelord sigma grindset alpha male MC in a fluffy rated E for everyone slice-of-life romcom would be the pinnacle of writing.

If your character regrets their flaws and tries to do good while jumping from one landmine to the next, or the reader understands their struggles, there's place for a redemption arc. If your character bulldozes through mistakes of their own making without reflection or regret, chances are you created either an idiot or a psychopath.

I can't actually claim to understand Royal Road's culture, but your description is the most concise summary of what I have been cumulatively told. You made me laugh and I appreciate that.

 

[TinaMigarlo]

When I wrote Miranda as one of the main characters in XNPC, I wanted her to be heavily flawed but still sympathetic. According to the comments I'm getting on Royal Road, I failed at that pretty hard. We're less than twenty chapters in, and people are already saying that she's completely unforgivable.

The story starts with her abandoning her post as lookout while her teammates sleep to go see her fantasy-comatose boyfriend, Jeremy, which sets off a chain reaction that ends with Jeremy waking up from his not-coma and the rookie in Miranda's party getting killed.

Miranda's whole thing is divided loyalties. She was pretty much an abandoned child growing up, and the only person she was close to was Jeremy, her best friend and eventual boyfriend. So when the world ends and Jeremy gets put in a not-coma, waking him up is her main goal. But she's also loyal to her party, who she's been adventuring with for over a decade at this point.

When the rookie dies, the party leader is justifiably pissed off and kicks Miranda from the group. Miranda makes getting Jeremy to safety her new goal, but once again her loyalties are split because her old party is being hunted by a rival guild, and it's all her fault. The guilt leads to her repeatedly leaving Jeremy alone in this dangerous, unknown world so she can try to go and help her friends. She knows it's wrong, but the guilt is more than she can handle, so rather than decide which is most important to her, she tries to do both at once, only making things worse for her and everyone else until everything culminates in a gigantic climactic battle where she makes a horrible sacrifice in a last ditch attempt to set things right.

None of this is presented as a good thing. Miranda spends the first couple books making the wrong decision at every given opportunity, but the story and the characters are constantly calling her out on it. It's also made clear that she's a heavily traumatized person who's struggling with more problems than even she knows she has. She also never does any of this out of malice. Every bad decision she makes is a desperate attempt to fix the problems her previous bad decisions caused, which just inadvertently creates even more problems. So in that way, I was hoping they she would still be sympathetic.

In your opinion, where does the line get drawn between a flawed but sympathetic character, and a permanently unlikable one?

my opinion, is that this is a great vacuum you carved out for character growth.
but making them wait a zillion chappies for it, is maybe too long.
speaking as someone who was in the military...
you fall asleep at your post, or worse yet sneak off for a romantic tryst.
and a team mate dies as a result?
you deserve to not come *back* from a routine patrol.
and? no one knows what happened to you.
that's not Semper Fi.
that's... Semper I

 

[CountVanBadger]

you fall asleep at your post, or worse yet sneak off for a romantic tryst.
and a team mate dies as a result?

That sums it up in a general sense, but it's also more complicated than that.

Nothing happened while she was gone. But when she saved Jeremy, he tried to reward her with gold (because he's an NPC). She refuses the reward, which his NPC brain interpreted as her giving him the money and decides that she must have hired him as a tagalong NPC partner, and so he follows her party into a boss fight without them noticing. He ends up taking a lethal hit, and Miranda uses a super rare and expensive potion to heal him. What Miranda didn't realize was that her rookie teammate also took a lethal hit at the exact same time, and by using the potion on Jeremy, her other party members weren't able to save her.

So yeah, like I said, the party leader is justifiably pissed off enough to boot her from the group, but it's nothing as simple as "Miranda leaves camp > camp is raided > party member dies because nobody was there to warn them."