What evidence is needed to conclude one way and not the other

[CheertheSecond]

A noble house consisting of 30+ people (not counting the servants and hired workers) was found dead by poison. The victims are the family. No servant was harmed. There was a letter stating the will of victims on the dinner table. It said that a part of the wealth will be used to pay and help the servants to find new jobs. The rest will be donated to the various charity organisations. It also stated that the family wish to be cremated and their ash scattered.


What evidences are needed to conclude that it was either
1) a mass suicide or
2) a mass murder

As detailed an explanation as can be.

 

[Gryphon]

I'm confused. Are you asking us to give an explanation as to how the event could look as either a mass suicide or murder, or are you asking to deduce with the information given to declare if its either a suicide or murder?

 

[Grimrose1]

Oh oh I know fucking with the first fucking concept of OUtCast given and form and bringing their to life back in full from their own teaching of the young…
Context:[I clicked on wrong fanfic site but you still know.] Hahaha… I was proving a point the reading between the lines and I fucking just proved this with everyone’s reaction to each fucking message… Look at the last message I figured out this Artist fucking probably died and no one fucking cares to fucking read the whole message… NOw BOth clues are in the context Actually reading the message and fully going down the list now here is my response and reaction to this knowledge given pure form. I AM ASOLUtly going for the fucking throat I fucking bite such a Gory bite that it was funny cause this right here is exactly why I Became The monster They fear and the end and beginning. And you know what is learn from the ChaoS I became the outcast made flesh I am the first Oucast in existence and I fucking took social media Lessons and use the same in reverse to kill the Industrialization of the fucking model and bring a Fucking cleanse of Chaos because I pick Up clues A Artist I like is Dead and What do I do? Sent it to Fimfic realize what and guess…? They didn’t even fucking NOtice a Drop in the bucket of the number of Artist Killed on this site. I sent the message because of and to ask and worry about his worry they don’t even take the fucking time to read what it really is ABOUT cuz of tags? I Already took the same route as them but while you probably don’t this is a seen, not and heard, not seen situation… The Poetic justice they made their monster Cause I didn’t know the thing happened to me too… But I did not Know but the funny thing is the seen/heard changes when they fucked up the same way but they didn’t know I was there learning everything for a year and half with the mechanics of YouTube records recommended your searchs… I became their monster and the first thing after I learn this Gutted the shit in the reverse of they did and they took the first shot I used a laptop in the library of a publication funded and when I resurrected As their demon they took the one action that ruined them. They shot their bullet through their foot and muted me in the poetic way of all their own way of spreading their in a library to spread knowledge A poetic JUsTIce is for All Outcast forgotten and Lost are not forgotten The First OUtcast in existence just had to come back the slow way. Through the same way once I but, did be in a reverse.

Oh oh I know fucking with the first fucking concept of OUtCast given and form and bringing their to life back in full from their own teaching of the young…
Context:[I clicked on wrong fanfic site but you still know.] Hahaha… I was proving a point the reading between the lines and I fucking just proved this with everyone’s reaction to each fucking message… Look at the last message I figured out this Artist fucking probably died and no one fucking cares to fucking read the whole message… NOw BOth clues are in the context Actually reading the message and fully going down the list now here is my response and reaction to this knowledge given pure form. I AM ASOLUtly going for the fucking throat I fucking bite such a Gory bite that it was funny cause this right here is exactly why I Became The monster They fear and the end and beginning. And you know what is learn from the ChaoS I became the outcast made flesh I am the first Oucast in existence and I fucking took social media Lessons and use the same in reverse to kill the Industrialization of the fucking model and bring a Fucking cleanse of Chaos because I pick Up clues A Artist I like is Dead and What do I do? Sent it to Fimfic realize what and guess…? They didn’t even fucking NOtice a Drop in the bucket of the number of Artist Killed on this site. I sent the message because of and to ask and worry about his worry they don’t even take the fucking time to read what it really is ABOUT cuz of tags? I Already took the same route as them but while you probably don’t this is a seen, not and heard, not seen situation… The Poetic justice they made their monster Cause I didn’t know the thing happened to me too… But I did not Know but the funny thing is the seen/heard changes when they fucked up the same way but they didn’t know I was there learning everything for a year and half with the mechanics of YouTube records recommended your searchs… I became their monster and the first thing after I learn this Gutted the shit in the reverse of they did and they took the first shot I used a laptop in the library of a publication funded and when I resurrected As their demon they took the one action that ruined them. They shot their bullet through their foot and muted me in the poetic way of all their own way of spreading their in a library to spread knowledge A poetic JUsTIce is for All Outcast forgotten and Lost are not forgotten The First OUtcast in existence just had to come back the slow way. Through the same way once I but, did be in a reverse.

They made it even worse they tried to delete it when I show ed prove and now this society will know the truth of death it will only be cruel you shot the first shot and you the first at the existence itself and that is a grave you will lie in.

Oh oh I know fucking with the first fucking concept of OUtCast given and form and bringing their to life back in full from their own teaching of the young…
Context:[I clicked on wrong fanfic site but you still know.] Hahaha… I was proving a point the reading between the lines and I fucking just proved this with everyone’s reaction to each fucking message… Look at the last message I figured out this Artist fucking probably died and no one fucking cares to fucking read the whole message… NOw BOth clues are in the context Actually reading the message and fully going down the list now here is my response and reaction to this knowledge given pure form. I AM ASOLUtly going for the fucking throat I fucking bite such a Gory bite that it was funny cause this right here is exactly why I Became The monster They fear and the end and beginning. And you know what is learn from the ChaoS I became the outcast made flesh I am the first Oucast in existence and I fucking took social media Lessons and use the same in reverse to kill the Industrialization of the fucking model and bring a Fucking cleanse of Chaos because I pick Up clues A Artist I like is Dead and What do I do? Sent it to Fimfic realize what and guess…? They didn’t even fucking NOtice a Drop in the bucket of the number of Artist Killed on this site. I sent the message because of and to ask and worry about his worry they don’t even take the fucking time to read what it really is ABOUT cuz of tags? I Already took the same route as them but while you probably don’t this is a seen, not and heard, not seen situation… The Poetic justice they made their monster Cause I didn’t know the thing happened to me too… But I did not Know but the funny thing is the seen/heard changes when they fucked up the same way but they didn’t know I was there learning everything for a year and half with the mechanics of YouTube records recommended your searchs… I became their monster and the first thing after I learn this Gutted the shit in the reverse of they did and they took the first shot I used a laptop in the library of a publication funded and when I resurrected As their demon they took the one action that ruined them. They shot their bullet through their foot and muted me in the poetic way of all their own way of spreading their in a library to spread knowledge A poetic JUsTIce is for All Outcast forgotten and Lost are not forgotten The First OUtcast in existence just had to come back the slow way. Through the same way once I but, did be in a reverse.

They made it even worse they tried to delete it when I show ed prove and now this society will know the truth of death it will only be cruel you shot the first shot and you the first at the existence itself and that is a grave you will lie in.

That was mis click at the end.

 

[Cipiteca396]

What evidences are needed to conclude that it was either
1) a mass suicide or
2) a mass murder

Motive. Someone put the poison in, and that person had a motive. Why did they do it? You have to know the motive to understand what happened.

From the information given, the only motive is, 'The servants get money, and don't have to work for the house anymore. Also dispose of the evidence with fire.' So the obvious conclusion is that one of the servants murdered them.

---

The other evidence that would work is who did it and how, I suppose. If it turns out that Arya Stark showed up and poisoned everyone, then wrote a fake will, that could absolve the servants even without knowing the motive. If it was one of the servants though, there's still the possibility they were ordered to do it. That's why motive is more important.

---

Hmm. If there's evidence that the house willingly took the poison knowing it was poison, that could prove suicide, assuming mind control is not an option. If you could prove one or two people died before the others took their poison, that could be enough. Or if the will was written by each member separately.

 

[CheertheSecond]

I'm confused. Are you asking us to give an explanation as to how the event could look as either a mass suicide or murder, or are you asking to deduce with the information given to declare if its either a suicide or murder?

I was asking if there would be evidences to prove it to be either a homicide or suicide, what those specific evidences would be.

It's an incomplete scenario that can be interpreted in either way due to lack of conclusive evidences and I want to know what extra details can be given to tip the scale in either way.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

What was the method of the poison delivery? Was it in the wine, in the meat, an aerosol, or something they would have to take manually?
Were any family members absent at the event, or did any arrive unusually early or late?
The scenario as presented sounds like one family member wanted to end it all and take the others with them, making it a "murder/suicide" - if a family member had been known to treat the staff better than their kin, that person would likely be the culprit.
But if they're all evil SOBs, then murder by the servants or an outside party seems the most likely cause.

The "evidence" needed would depend on what really happened, and what led up to the incident. Detectives would look into the past of every one of the dead people as well as everyone else present or with access to that room on the day it happened and maybe a day or two prior. They would also look at the type of poison used, and since it was poison, traditionally the choice of either women or cult leaders, put a special focus on suspects who could be either or both of those things. See who had access to the poison used and who had motive to use it.
A lot of little things.

 

[CheertheSecond]

What was the method of the poison delivery? Was it in the wine, in the meat, an aerosol, or something they would have to take manually?
Were any family members absent at the event, or did any arrive unusually early or late?
The scenario as presented sounds like one family member wanted to end it all and take the others with them, making it a "murder/suicide" - if a family member had been known to treat the staff better than their kin, that person would likely be the culprit.
But if they're all evil SOBs, then murder by the servants or an outside party seems the most likely cause.

The "evidence" needed would depend on what really happened, and what led up to the incident. Detectives would look into the past of every one of the dead people as well as everyone else present or with access to that room on the day it happened and maybe a day or two prior. They would also look at the type of poison used, and since it was poison, traditionally the choice of either women or cult leaders, put a special focus on suspects who could be either or both of those things. See who had access to the poison used and who had motive to use it.
A lot of little things.

The household used to be an influential noble house but after several massive plunders and political battles, they had diminished in power. While they as a collective are haughty masters to those servants. All the servants that had severe issues with the family had been retired and paid handsomely to reduce potential enemies in this aftermath period where the family wanted to lay low. The current servants were treated relatively well according to noble servants' standard. The family members had been reprimanded by the patriarch to watch their conducts toward anyone and everyone because they can not afford to leave a weak point for spies and backstabbers to be created among the servants and other hired workers as well as making more conflicts with the outside forces.

The household was currently in a very precarious situation as the royal family and the government were conducting a total investigation across the entire nation to cull corruption as well as cutting down the amount of excessive and unproductive nobles. They also wanted to use these evidences of corruption as blackmail materials to force several large household to pay more tax.

Family members had a cordial relationship which had been greatly improved in this dark hour. A lot of them had donated their wealth to charity works in hope of building better images.

Poison was found in the desserts. Tablewares are silver-coated. All family members were present from the start to the end. There are various servants in the room. Some were permanently there to serve like the head butler. Meanwhile, others ran in and out like the kitchen staff and serving maids.

The servants noticed that, despite the cozy atmosphere, the mood was weirdly gloomy.

 

[Nolff]

I was asking if there would be evidences to prove it to be either a homicide or suicide, what those specific evidences would be.

It's an incomplete scenario that can be interpreted in either way due to lack of conclusive evidences and I want to know what extra details can be given to tip the scale in either way.

If only that's the lead, then it'll be hard to decide.

What are the servants doing at that time?

The household used to be an influential noble house but after several massive plunders and political battles, they had diminished in power. While they as a collective are haughty masters to those servants. All the servants that had severe issues with the family had been retired and paid handsomely to reduce potential enemies in this aftermath period where the family wanted to lay low. The current servants were treated relatively well according to noble servants' standard. The family members had been reprimanded by the patriarch to watch their conducts toward anyone and everyone because they can not afford to leave a weak point for spies and backstabbers to be created among the servants and other hired workers as well as making more conflicts with the outside forces.

The household was currently in a very precarious situation as the royal family and the government were conducting a total investigation across the entire nation to cull corruption as well as cutting down the amount of excessive and unproductive nobles. They also wanted to use these evidences of corruption as blackmail materials to force several large household to pay more tax.

Family members had a cordial relationship which had been greatly improved in this dark hour. A lot of them had donated their wealth to charity works in hope of building better images.

Poison was found in the desserts. Tablewares are silver-coated. All family members were present from the start to the end. There are various servants in the room. Some were permanently there to serve like the head butler. Meanwhile, others ran in and out like the kitchen staff and serving maids.

The servants noticed that, despite the cozy atmosphere, the mood was weirdly gloomy.

Never mind, it's a mass-suicide.

Somehow, the head family was able to convince everyone that their last effort to get other noble fams was to get themselves dead. So, they collectively commit die at the gathering. Dunno abt the children though.

 

[cabbag3]

It might be suicide for the family head but murder for the rest.

I think there should also be a test on the validity of the suicide note, and the integrity of the third party who is supposed to carry out the will of the family if this is suicide. I'm not sure if the note writer would put on the reason of why his doing this, how his going to do it, and if the people that are still alive that were involved in this plan would be held accountable by whatever rules that world follows.

If it's murder, idk tbh. That's probably one of the problems of murder by poisoning. Like, the murderer could just replace sugar with some sweet tasting poison, idk, and everybody's the suspect. But there would be a suicide note to cover their asses off.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Sounds like we are down to three options:

1) Rival family decided to get them out of the way, either because they were diminished or because they knew something would be elevating their status soon. Murder from outside.

2) Patriarch knew the investigations would turn up something dire, made sure the others knew something bad was afoot, but did not say what and poisoned the desserts to avoid the greater scandal by wiping out his bloodline. Murder/Suicide.

3) The received word that the only way to expunge their failures and misadventures from the history books was a mass suicide, word given by either the local ruler or a religious leader, so it would be more "assisted mass suicide"

I suppose a fourth is one of the former servants decided that they could not be permitted to mistreat current or future staff, but that seems like a "hail Mary" type deal.

 

[QuercusMalus]

At best a Murder/suicide. No way you're going to get that many people to agree to give up their wealth and life without something seriously hinky cult level stuff going on.

 

[corruption]

If kids were killed, it is murder.
It is only mass suicide if everyone who died was adult, and not only could, but did make the choice for themselves. Even if kids chose to take poisoned stuff, they would not have understood what it was about.

If the poison was hidden in the food or drink that would indicate that most people did not know about it and is thus murder.

 

[Jocelyn_Uasal]

What evidences are needed to conclude that it was either
1) a mass suicide or
2) a mass murder

The fact that it was a noble house is alone enough for me to conclude that it wasn't a mass suicide. A noble house of such a large size is usually more than willing to throw their family under the bus to save their own lives, and the only reason that such a large family would commit suicide would be to throw the country into chaos.

Nobles are chosen directly by the ruling class, so if 30 of them died by any means, there would be war against whoever they even suspected to be the cause.