What do you guys think about tax (as a concept )

[Placeholder]

> To go back to OP's initial question: Tax is theft, because it's unilateral without giving you any agency on how the money is used,

Firstly, you're mashing together representational democracies that respect human rights with basically nasty autocracies.

Secondly, the tax = theft meme only kicked off with Ayn Rand larpers who don't want to live in a world where poor black kids get free school lunches. And her book is shitty scifi and shitty civics, sociology, psychology, and (probably) urbanism.

 

[miyoga]

Even without an exam, the onus of learning falls to students if the material is taught. If the material is glossed over by the teacher, then they won't have any way of learning about the tax system and what it does or why it's needed or even how the government can/does abuse it.

 

[owotrucked]

> To go back to OP's initial question: Tax is theft, because it's unilateral without giving you any agency on how the money is used,

Firstly, you're mashing together representational democracies that respect human rights with basically nasty autocracies.

On paper, you're right that representational democracy gives citizens agency on tax spendings through voting. My personal experience is that this power feels more like roleplaying to blame citizen "you voted for this" than actual power to even prevent your money to fuel corruption.

That's why I mash both systems together, but I'll take that back, because considering OP's question as ideal concepts, taxes in functional true democracy are a pillar of social contract.

In OP's example, it's about fictional Japanese. Them being a sorta closed-off society that had to overcome natural disasters like earthquakes and flood, would tend to make them reliable. So, prolly not completely BS

Secondly, the tax = theft meme only kicked off with Ayn Rand larpers who don't want to live in a world where poor black kids get free school lunches. And her book is shitty scifi and shitty civics, sociology, psychology, and (probably) urbanism.

Never heard of her.

Using free lunch for poor black kids as hostage is an emotional argument, the same way you can hold hospital and safety hostage, while you get a fat check by occupying corrupt position. You present a choice to give away power and feed corruption or being morally attacked by being presented as a selfish piece of shit. It poralizes people into being even worst selfish bastard.

The lack of control of the taxed and how the tax money is used can be separate considerations.

For example, consider Robin Hood stealing money for the poor. Is this theft? Yes. Do you agree with the instrumental morality of his actions? Sure, I'm poor so no risk I'm getting targeted lmao

If tax is a transfer of wealth without personal consent, then there's nothing weird about seeing it as theft. A forceful and coercive method can be used for bad and good. Like a good father, the government just has to justify that it's beating you up with the belt for your "own good".


Edit: Btw tax = theft meme is prolly older than history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_acts_of_tax_resistance

IIRC it wasn't weird in older generations of americans to sit in prison if they refused to fund a war that they disagreed with

 

[Placeholder]

> If tax is a transfer of wealth without personal consent, then there's nothing weird about seeing it as theft.

It's intensely weird because you're deliberately conflating lawful and unlawful taking. And using emotional language to make an emotional argument.

As part of a "burn it down" mentality, rather than a fixing it mentality.

Because libertarians aren't capable of laying out a working model of a functioning society using their principles.

> Using free lunch for poor black kids as hostage is an emotional argument

No, it is a practical one based on empirical evidence and observation.

I'm from the US. Southern states literally stripped down the local public school systems once the Supreme Court made segregated schools unlawful.

In order to set up private "academies" for the white kids.

It's a fundamental example of how the "tax is theft" people operate, which is inseparably entangled from the US Southern Strategy.

> "Exclusive: Lee Atwater’s Infamous 1981 Interview on the Southern Strategy
The forty-two-minute recording, acquired by James Carter IV, confirms Atwater’s incendiary remarks and places them in context.
RICK PERLSTEIN
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> It has become, for liberals and leftists enraged by the way Republicans never suffer the consequences for turning electoral politics into a cesspool, a kind of smoking gun. The late, legendarily brutal campaign consultant Lee Atwater explains how Republicans can win the vote of racists without sounding racist themselves:

> You start out in 1954 by saying, “N*****, n*****, n*****.” By 1968 you can’t say “n*****”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N*****, n*****.”"
https://www.thenation.com/article/a...rs-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/

 

[Leti]

Theft is borrowing something without any intents of returning it back. If people get the benefits they get from paying tax in return then it's not theft.

 

[Fairemont]

Tax is theft only when it becomes theft.

In most early tax situations, thet were collected by the lords of the land as part of an "agreement" with the people, and in turn used those funds to protect the people from outsiders, crime, and disasters.

Tax is only theft when those who collect it do not use it for what it is intended. So long as the collecting side upholds their end of the bargain, taxation is actually an incredible thing and a fabulous way to pool resources for the greater good.

Alas, too many go against it which is why peasant revolts were rather terrifying things back in the day, and why peasants often had exceptional vacation time and such, despite living in what would be considered squalor by modern standards.

Ironically, taxes have directly contributed to most, if not all, modern developments that have seen society step away from medieval peasantry.

So, its a mixed bag.

 

[xedale]

If the person believes what they get (not being punished by the tax collector doesn't count) is greater than what they give, it can still be tax but no longer theft.