What are your thoughts on creators advertising their Patreon

[JordanIda]

So, by your logic, those doujinshi that many read in some site should be considered a theft of intellectual property, then. Also, fan art should be considered a theft of intellectual property. if you don't provide any context of this line, I'll drag it as it is and said what I said.

Look I'm just a spoke in the wheel and I'm not here to fight. I know lots of people are trying to supplement their income with this activity (and hopefully it's not their ONLY income (shudder)), so to each his own and whatever they can live with and get away with.

But some aspects of this conversation aren't open to opinion. Fan Fiction is theft, just about everywhere. That's simply fact, and leaving my personal views on the matter out of it. This is why Anne Rice's publicists and lawyers can suspend and even shut down websites with a phone call. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich could shut down my fan fiction (Twilight) with a phone call, too. Even though I don't take "donations" for it.

And if they were ever to do that, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Let me put it this way: I would shut them down in a heartbeat, if the roles were reversed.

But honestly, it wouldn't take that much. For me, all it would take is a public Twitter notification from Stephenie Meyer that she wishes all the fan fiction could disappear. That would be it. I'd be gone. Poof.

 

[Alski]

This, all day long. It shocks me sometimes that RoyalRoad pays their authors for fan-fiction. Unethical and insulting.

and its against patreon ToS, but they hardly ever enforce it because it means less money for them.

 

[LeilaniOtter]

and its against patreon ToS, but they hardly ever enforce it because it means less money for them.

but of course, anything showing a boob and it's suddenly, "YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT ON THERE?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! UNCLEAN! BARBARIC! BLASPHEMY!"

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Look I'm just a spoke in the wheel and I'm not here to fight. I know lots of people are trying to supplement their income with this activity (and hopefully it's not their ONLY income (shudder)), so to each his own and whatever they can live with and get away with.

But some aspects of this conversation aren't open to opinion. Fan Fiction is theft, just about everywhere. That's simply fact, and leaving my personal views on the matter out of it. This is why Anne Rice's publicists and lawyers can suspend and even shut down websites with a phone call. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich could shut down my fan fiction (Twilight) with a phone call, too. Even though I don't take "donations" for it.

And if they were ever to do that, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Let me put it this way: I would shut them down in a heartbeat, if the roles were reversed.

But honestly, it wouldn't take that much. For me, all it would take is a public Twitter notification from Stephenie Meyer that she wishes all the fan fiction could disappear. That would be it. I'd be gone. Poof.

It's only theft if:
1) You haven't done the legwork and asked the author or copyright holder for permission (some are flattered by the concept if you go to them FIRST - almost all are irritated at best if you don't).
2) A publisher owns the trademark and did not hire you to write new material for their character (this is why there can be multiple Superman, Spider-man, Batman etc. titles on the shelves, all by different writers - though the original creator - or, increasingly, their estate - gets a percentage, the publisher owns the character)
3) The owner has not released the material into the Public Domain (Bill Willingham did this to end a trademark dispute over The Elementals with Comico; also this is how books like the entire Flashman series - inspired by a background character in an 1850s novel - or Silverlock, which wanders through the Commonwealth of Fiction; i.e. several public domain settings - or a lot of the books in the Cthulhu Mythos can exist - either the property was released, or the laws let it expire)

So, it is possible to do fan fiction that is NOT theft - you just have to do some background work first (and probably avoid currently "in vogue" properties like Pokemon, Twilight, Naruto etc.) and either focus on properties in the public domain or get written permission first.

 

[JordanIda]

Sure, sure. Agreed. We'll never know how much Stephenie Meyer made on Fifty Shades.

But we're not talking about legitimate business agreements. We're talking about this place. And places like it. No one in places like this does that. No one.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Sure, sure. Agreed. We'll never know how much Stephenie Meyer made on Fifty Shades.

But we're not talking about legitimate business agreements. We're talking about this place. And places like it. No one in places like this does that. No one.

It is easy to use public domain characters though - just look for expired copyrights.

Though my favorite reaction to fan fiction was that of Don Miguel Cervantes. When his publisher showed him three of the (at least five at the time) novels people had published furthering the adventures of his best-known character, he did a writing marathon and pushed out volume two as well as a letter that was sent to every author and publishing house that had continued the story without permission.
I have never seen the letter, only summaries translated to English (the original was in Spanish) but essentially it read: "While he wished it known that Don Quixote appreciated your efforts to extend his legend, we regret to inform you that he is now deceased, and his estate is not so open minded. Any efforts to expand his story will be met with legal action."
Don Quixote died in volume two (which also included, allegedly without the knowledge of the authors but with the permission of their publishers, condensed versions of the two stories Cervantes had liked of the ones other authors had pushed out) - though most modern editions don't make a distinction between the two volumes and publish as a single work.

 

[Zinless]

I never minded advertisement of Patreon in stories so long as they're not all too annoying. But I hadn't met any such authors who I found to be annoying in their way of advertising, but maybe that's just me.

Also, please try to stick to the topic of the thread. The whole fan fiction monetization topic is a whole can of worms best opened somewhere else.

 

[Gray_Mann]

You're aware RoyalRoad is MOSTLY fan-fiction, right?

Nope. It's mostly LitRPG.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Nope. It's mostly LitRPG.

Which, I suppose, could be "RPG Fan Fiction" (actually hit an interesting question - if you write material for an RPG using existing, licensed, characters, is that technically Fan Fiction - i.e., if you use the Monty Python Co-curricular Medieval Re-enactment Programme with the characters based on the show, like Vicious Bands of Keep Left Signs or the Dragon of Angmar; or if you create an adventure for the Doctor Who RPG using an existing Doctor and Companions ... is that Fan Fiction?)...

 

[PancakesWitch]

Well, there's nothing wrong with authors trying to earn from Patreon if they think they can do it. A lot of people find it extremely hard because they cannot compromise enough nor write something popular, so they think its something impossible nobody can do but a few selected chosen ones. But anybody can do it, it's certainly easier than learning how to draw.

 

[LeilaniOtter]

Well, there's nothing wrong with authors trying to earn from Patreon if they think they can do it. A lot of people find it extremely hard because they cannot compromise enough nor write something popular, so they think its something impossible nobody can do but a few selected chosen ones. But anybody can do it, it's certainly easier than learning how to draw.

There certainly is something wrong, however, if authors go about it dishonestly and use copyrighted, protected work for their means. I couldn't really fathom how anyone would be okay with that, and if I ever saw something like that on Patreon, not only should it be reported, but the original creators (if living) should be aware of it too. Honestly, people just need to think about who they're hurting before doing something online.

 

[Gray_Mann]

Yep. Still sounds like Fan-Fiction. I knew a guy that wrote a 2,000+ page fan fiction of Harry Potter just suddenly appearing in some time period in the Lord of the Rings, I dont know when specifically since he was more invested in Tolkien lore than me. Anyway, he wasn't aware at the time that he couldn't do anything financial with it, so when he discovered this, he promptly lost his shit and hasn't worked on it since.

Sad too, he was considering a Sonic/Mario thing next. I was more interested in that one but he never wrote it.

 

[PancakesWitch]

There certainly is something wrong, however, if authors go about it dishonestly and use copyrighted, protected work for their means. I couldn't really fathom how anyone would be okay with that, and if I ever saw something like that on Patreon, not only should it be reported, but the original creators (if living) should be aware of it too. Honestly, people just need to think about who they're hurting before doing something online.

I'm talking about original works, are you speaking about fanfics? Even then, I don't think the original IPs are SUFFERING because a fanfic writer is earning a few bucks on patreon. Do you think Game Freak is agonzing because of the pokemon fanfics? Or that bitch that made harry potter is going to die starving because of the HP fanfics? Are you really feeling sad about millionaires and giant corporations girl? Are we deadass right now? Are you literally this meme?

 

[Tetrahedron]

Look I'm just a spoke in the wheel and I'm not here to fight. I know lots of people are trying to supplement their income with this activity (and hopefully it's not their ONLY income (shudder)), so to each his own and whatever they can live with and get away with.

But some aspects of this conversation aren't open to opinion. Fan Fiction is theft, just about everywhere. That's simply fact, and leaving my personal views on the matter out of it. This is why Anne Rice's publicists and lawyers can suspend and even shut down websites with a phone call. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich could shut down my fan fiction (Twilight) with a phone call, too. Even though I don't take "donations" for it.

And if they were ever to do that, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Let me put it this way: I would shut them down in a heartbeat, if the roles were reversed.

But honestly, it wouldn't take that much. For me, all it would take is a public Twitter notification from Stephenie Meyer that she wishes all the fan fiction could disappear. That would be it. I'd be gone. Poof.

Ah, looks like you and I had a different views on fanfiction. To me, a fanfiction is just a piece of writing made by a fan. Nothing more, nothing less. But if you made someone like Anne Rice go as far as taking that kind of legal action, I suspect she has something that any fan don't want to step over those certain boundaries she's fully aware that she made it.

But again, if I had to be direct, most companies barely care about some Joe making a fanfiction that doesn't directly affect anything. Mind you I've done it for six years. SIX YEARS. So I heavily disagree, again, that you call it a theft.

And the fandom I was once part of is quite a handful, but mostly a niche Korean side-scrolling online RPG titled Elsword. Did KOG Studio sent a C&D letter on FanFiction.net for it? No.

But all in all, it's to each of our own view.

 

[PancakesWitch]

Ah, looks like you and I had a different views on fanfiction. To me, a fanfiction is just a piece of writing made by a fan. Nothing more, nothing less. But if you made someone like Anne Rice go as far as taking that kind of legal action, I suspect she has something that any fan don't want to step over those certain boundaries she's fully aware that she made it.

But again, if I had to be direct, most companies barely care about some Joe making a fanfiction that doesn't directly affect anything. Mind you I've done it for six years. SIX YEARS. So I heavily disagree, again, that you call it a theft.

And the fandom I was once part of is quite a handful, but mostly a niche Korean side-scrolling online RPG titled Elsword. Did KOG Studio sent a C&D letter on FanFiction.net for it? No.

But all in all, it's to each of our own view.

There's hundreds of dedicated fanfic writers earning hundreds or even thousands on patreon right now and no matter how much some may seethe, this will never change, corporations can't just track down everyone and stop them, and I am fairly sure most dont even give a fuck.
The biggest enemy of a fanfic writer are themselves anyway because they always drop their series to make something new

 

[JordanIda]

This is starting to sound like the rationalizations we hear in defense of shoplifters. That it's "victimless," because the pilfered store merchandise is insured.

Fan fiction causes more damage than people realize.

Publishers invest millions in their intellectual property, to build their fan bases. Fan fiction parasitically leeches off that investment. But it's more than that. Fan fiction dilutes the publisher's brand. In this sense fan fiction also dilutes the author's created work. This is true even of the rare fan fic works that betray hints of genuine craft and literary merit. But most of it as we know falls far short of it. Most of it is just p@rn and gratuitious violence.

The only reason it is not shut down is that not all publishers go after it. Book sales spike early on and then decline in a logarthmic curve. Toward end of that curve, it's often not cost-effective to dump the legal expense into tilting at windmills. Some creators, like Rice, have made it a personal mission. Most can't be bothered. But the fact they don't go after it doesn't make it right and certainly doesn't make it legal.

Think about urban retail stores. How often have we seen companies just throw in the towel and padlock the doors, due to community permissiveness regarding shoplifting and the unwillingness of the police and courts to vigorously enforce the laws? Then everything suffers.

We're all suffering, too. The bound/print trade fiction market is dead. The novel is dead. The Internet didn't kill the novel. The garbage that we post and share on the Internet has killed the novel.

But as I said earlier, the truth will just drive many into apoplexy and sanctimonious indignation. It's impossible to reason with the people who are attempting to pay their rent with "fan fic donations." Gotta boost the monies. Right?

 

[TinaMigarlo]

They don't pay authors anything, what are you talking about?

I have like a dozen novels up on MoonQuill. (I don't write fan fiction) they "pay" authors for "views". I think last time I checked, for a hundred thousand views I have three dollars and eleven cents in my "account". I suppose in ten years I'll get a pack of smokes out of that, LMAO. But if readers *want* to *patreon* the author to keep writing more, well... that's not moonquill paying the authors to do fanfic. That's just donations. Its basically just a tip jar for the author. Some bartenders get a big tip jar full every day, others (like me) get a few pennies every week.

my first novel attempt more years ago than I like to count... we didn't call it fan fiction back then. Back then, we called it... a noob writer didn't know they weren't allowed to "finish" a series that the author died before finishing it.

my feelings on fanfic. I'm all for it because it gets new writers, to write. And if readers like their writing, great. They can kick over to making their own stories and have the ability and confidence to get started. Its how I know I can try doing this, my damn self. And how would I feel if I ever got a big house and a houseboat, and made a good living off writing? And someone fan-fic'd my characters. Hey. I already got a nice houseboat, a nice sports car? More power to you, I already got mine. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Zagaroth]

I have like a dozen novels up on MoonQuill.

But that's MoonQuill, not Royal Road. They now have an arrangement to make it easier for authors to submit to MoonQuill, but that's not RR paying anyone, and as you pointed out, MQ isn't publishing fanfiction.