What’s your take on nationalism in novels?

[Irl_Rat]

Yeah. The Imperialists initially intended to expel all foreigners while the Shogunate preferred to allow them to remain so that they could learn and procure technological advancements from them. However, the moment the Imperialists won, they reneged on their initial promise of expelling foreigners and thus began the Meiji Restoration.

Hey at least the timeline worked out so I can enjoy big titty anime girls.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

A lot of small countries will ego hard regardless of "reality." Vietnam consistently talks mad shit despite being a historical footnote whose main claim to fame is occasionally being really annoying to the super power of the era.

One of the most interesting things I learned about Vietnam was that after the Qin (during the Spring & Autumn Period) conquered the Shu state, members of the Shu nobility fled into Vietnam, took over, and started one of the Vietnamese dynasties

 

[Simo]

One of the most interesting things I learned about Vietnam was that after the Qin (during the Spring & Autumn Period) conquered the Shu state, members of the Shu nobility fled into Vietnam, took over, and started one of the Vietnamese dynasty

Heh, didn't think I'd be learning so much history from SH's forum.

 

[Irl_Rat]

One of the most interesting things I learned about Vietnam was that after the Qin (during the Spring & Autumn Period) conquered the Shu state, members of the Shu nobility fled into Vietnam, took over, and started one of the Vietnamese dynasty

Wait till you find out the French inadvertently boosted Vietnamese national identity by introducing the Latin alphabet, which allowed Vietnamese to be written in something that wasn't Chinese, creating a greater rift in the identity of the two languages.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

Wait till you find out the French inadvertently boosted Vietnamese national identity by introducing the Latin alphabet, which allowed Vietnamese to be written in something that wasn't Chinese, creating a greater rift in the identity of the two languages.

Now THAT I didn't know. Makes sense. I never thought about why Vietnam uses letters rather than characters like most nations of the area. Though most of my Vietnamese knowledge is characterized by it somehow being related to Chinese history V.V

 

[RepresentingCaution]

Taking pride in natural wonders and culture is great, but nationalism crosses a line I don't care to cross. If it's about a fantasy nation, that's not so bad as long as the nationalism is necessary to the plot.

 

[TroubleFait]

Do you know about Starship Troopers?

I heard the novel was a sort of fascist, nationalistic, ultra-militaristic, tainted story (while still remaining quite good).
Well, the movie is that too. And I hear it's a fantastic watch. You can feel nationalism dripping from the floor like it's a Cold War era propaganda movie and it's incredible.

To be clear, to anyone with a little bit of awareness, the movie is not to take at face value, its worth is seen when you consider what it's really trying to say about nationalism.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

Do you know about Starship Troopers?

I heard the novel was a sort of fascist, nationalistic, ultra-militaristic, tainted story (while still remaining quite good).
Well, the movie is that too. And I hear it's a fantastic watch. You can feel nationalism dripping from the floor like it's a Cold War era propaganda movie and it's incredible.

To be clear, to anyone with a little bit of awareness, the movie is not to take at face value, its worth is seen when you consider what it's really trying to say about nationalism.

Love the little kid at the end, all smiles in her brand new suit of armor and helmet. I bet Daddy is so proud of her!!!

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

Love the little kid at the end, all smiles in her brand new suit of armor and helmet. I bet Daddy is so proud of her!!!

As are the corporate execs who were able to lobby for lowering the minimum enlistment age to boost sales.

 

[Kenjona]

Do you know about Starship Troopers?

I heard the novel was a sort of fascist, nationalistic, ultra-militaristic, tainted story (while still remaining quite good).
Well, the movie is that too. And I hear it's a fantastic watch. You can feel nationalism dripping from the floor like it's a Cold War era propaganda movie and it's incredible.

To be clear, to anyone with a little bit of awareness, the movie is not to take at face value, its worth is seen when you consider what it's really trying to say about nationalism.

The Hero of the story in the book, was a Pilipino who's family lived in Brazil; Juan "Johnny" Rico. Not the "All American WASP" in the movie.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

As are the corporate execs who were able to lobby for lowering the minimum enlistment age to boost sales.

Such a groundbreaking success for our armed forces!!

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

The Hero of the story in the book, was a Pilipino who's family lived in Brazil; Juan "Johnny" Rico. Not the "All American WASP" in the movie.

Knowing Better has an in-depth guide for anyone who doesn't want to read the book.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

Knowing Better has an in-depth guide for anyone who doesn't want to read the book.

Why does everybody make in-depths videos to explain things? Why can't I just have my own wildly incoherent and bizarre explanation of things be validated by the numerous voices in my head without some youtuber spoiling it by telling me the voices in my head might not be right?

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

Why does everybody make in-depths videos to explain things? Why can't I just have my own wildly incoherent and bizarre explanation of things be validated by the numerous voices in my head without some youtuber spoiling it by telling me the voices in my head might not be right?

Because all these explainer videos are just that, but cleaned up. We get to our own conclusions by comparing, merging, and/or rejecting the outside ideas when they interact with ours.

Something something meme(the idea kind, not the shitpost kind) plasticity.

 

[Bartun]

I don’t particularly mind when an author tries to portray his country in a better light. But once done excessively, and at the expanse of other countries, it just makes me cringe inwardly. And most of the time I end up dropping the story all together. This is the main reason why I tend to avoid modern day fantasies, whether they be Korean or Chinese.

I know a lot of readers don’t really care about it, and can simply ignore it all together. But for some reason, I can’t. I honestly wish I could, but the second real world’s messed up politics come to play, portrayed very unrealistically. I usually drop the story no matter how much I enjoyed it.

I have been thinking about this as I’m currently reading The novel’s extra. And I am curious to see what you guys think of the subject.

You don't have to go that far, just look at your typical Hollywood movie or mainstream game. Take a look at any Transformer movie and you'll see the US military in all its might helping beat freaking space robots, or this move U-571: Battle of the Atlantic in which the Americans take the credit from the British for stealing the Enigma machines to break the code, or even better, that Call of Duty Modern Warfare game in which they pin that "Highway of Death" war crime on the Russians when it was actually done by the US (albeit on accident) in the first Gulf War, or my favorite, that US won WW2 all by themselves. Most if not all American war movies of the time were guilty of that until Platoon started the trend for anti-war movies, which become insanely popular for a reason. Don't take me wrong! I don't have anything against the US, but come on, Hollywood propaganda is obnoxious especially when you have read something about history., the same goes for the Russians' WW2 films, everyone knows that only the Nazis were guilty of war crimes (sarcasm). The Chinese aren't the only ones flooding us with propaganda.

The Starship Troopers movie is so beloved because it parodies the whole fascist propaganda film to hell and back, even if you miss all the social-political commentary and message, is still a goddamn good action flick.

 

[Deleted member 1244]

And I am curious to see what you guys think of the subject.

It's just a narrative trope that some authors use because it is easy. People that don't feel anything about it would ignore it, people, that it speaks to will lap it up. people that personally affected will drop it.

Just like I can slap on a few "hot and bothered" blush from a few women on a male mc, suddenly it will stoke the fires of readers that long for 'the harem', but other readers will just go "oh... that happened"

I do find it interesting that often, readers see it and fail to see the difference between fiction and reality, and starts to make the association that people from China, Korea and Japan are a nation of over the top nationalism and look down on other nations.

Granted, those people do exist. But from what I have seen, [nationalism as a plot element] by authors tend to be something the author used for whatever reason rather than it actually happening in the world at large.

I mean to make that connection between fiction and reality is like me binging thru 10 seasons of Law and order, special victim unit, and thinking that American police are a beacon of hope against the tides of paedophiles and rapists that lines the streets of America wherever you look.

Or during that time when American popular culture mainly dealt with racial injustices, and it may have been a big part of American culture, but I seriously doubt that at the time everyone is racist and the rest were just waiting for a hero is speak out.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

I do find it interesting that often, readers see it and fail to see the difference between fiction and reality, and starts to make the association that people from China, Korea and Japan are a nation of over the top nationalism and look down on other nations.

Granted, those people do exist. But from what I have seen, [nationalism as a plot element] by authors tend to be something the author used for whatever reason rather than it actually happening in the world at large.

Kinda sorta.

Again, the bones is in whether the nationalism is character focused or narrative focused. Now that you mention it, authors can and likely do in fact push things through the narrative that they may not even believe in because their target audience does, like how Nobita From Japan went from dating/confidence guides for (mostly American) foreigners to repeating certain right wing talking points (tradwife, "victimhood," anti-immigration but only towards "certain people") after his audience from said group bloomed.

Money and fame is as much a motivator as ignorance or malice.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

You don't have to go that far, just look at your typical Hollywood movie or mainstream game. Take a look at any Transformer movie and you'll see the US military in all its might helping beat freaking space robots, or this move U-571: Battle of the Atlantic in which the Americans take the credit from the British for stealing the Enigma machines to break the code, or even better, that Call of Duty Modern Warfare game in which they pin that "Highway of Death" war crime on the Russians when it was actually done by the US (albeit on accident) in the first Gulf War, or my favorite, that US won WW2 all by themselves. Most if not all American war movies of the time were guilty of that until Platoon started the trend for anti-war movies, which become insanely popular for a reason. Don't take me wrong! I don't have anything against the US, but come on, Hollywood propaganda is obnoxious especially when you have read something about history., the same goes for the Russians' WW2 films, everyone knows that only the Nazis were guilty of war crimes (sarcasm). The Chinese aren't the only ones flooding us with propaganda.

The Starship Troopers movie is so beloved because it parodies the whole fascist propaganda film to hell and back, even if you miss all the social-political commentary and message, is still a goddamn good action flick.

damn them space bugs!!!

 

[Deleted member 1244]

authors can and likely do in fact push things through the narrative that they may not even believe in because their target audience does,

Very true as well.

But either side of the coin, can not be verifiable until you actually go and experience the culture of the said location with a deep study and compare it with the fiction. Thus the act of making that conclusion of "Author writes country as nationalist because the nation is really a nationalistic culture" or " Author writes country as nationalist to foster a nationalistic culture that did not exist" is an act done only by one that 'knows' and one that 'assumes'

And it might be a "Hot take" of the three types of readers. The people that know, that assume, and that does not assume, it is a litmus test of a person's ability to decern the reality of the world. As a "creator of stories". or a "consumer of stories". In cruder terms, one that can think for themselves and those that cannot.

And I don't mean this in an all-consuming black and white, some people a more sensitive in recognizing certain assumptions, but weak against others. It's just human.

But I think Authors, need that awareness of where those assumptions are in themselves and then decide how they are going to use them, to entertain? to subvert? or to propagate it.

 

[Varstark]

I'm more puzzled by Korean nationalism since they've had very few instances where they could pretend to be a major player in East Asian geographical politics. They've had eras where they were able to fight China or Japan on equal terms...but it was very rare.

You're assuming that nationalism is a rational reflection of a nation's strength instead of human nature. Might want to be careful with that in these sorts of discussions in other forums, with actual people from those countries instead of immigrants and other foreigners.

Ah, but you did say 'pretend', so I'm assuming you're not actually puzzled at all.