Theme vs Character

[Kureous]

When I first started writing, I was totally obsessed with Theme. I thought my story HAD to have a message, and I never understood the error I was making until recently. I saw Theme as this Almighty force that would bend my world and characters to its will, forcing them to act in peculiar ways. Let's say I want to write a story about forgiveness centered around a boy whose parents were killed. He goes to train for 13 years, returns, and discovers the man has already been killed by someone else. How do you still make that story about forgiveness? Will he forgive a dead man? Or would I have to change many plot points to make it work? Honestly, it doesn't even make a lot of sense to me because he trained for 13 years only to suddenly be like, "We cool, bro," because someone told him revenge bad? That's not very realistic. At that point, the characters feel more like mouthpieces for your ideas than actual characters, and the story becomes preachy. So it's better to write great characters and let people decide for themselves what the Theme of your story is. After all, books can have hundreds of different interpretations. I've given my opinion, but I'd like to hear yours. What do you think?

 

[Corty]

I just write what I would find fun as a reader. I'm more about entertaining than putting out messages. I want my readers to escape reality for a little bit and enjoy a different world without any deep or philosophical-like strings/ideas/panderings attached. My stories are purely for relaxation.

I don't even know if I have chosen a theme consciously before. Hm. Thinking about it, all my stories are focused on my characters and their interactions, then following any set themes.

 

[NotOriginal]

When I first started writing, I was totally obsessed with Theme. I thought my story HAD to have a message, and I never understood the error I was making until recently. I saw Theme as this Almighty force that would bend my world and characters to its will, forcing them to act in peculiar ways. Let's say I want to write a story about forgiveness centered around a boy whose parents were killed. He goes to train for 13 years, returns, and discovers the man has already been killed by someone else. How do you still make that story about forgiveness? Will he forgive a dead man? Or would I have to change many plot points to make it work? Honestly, it doesn't even make a lot of sense to me because he trained for 13 years only to suddenly be like, "We cool, bro," because someone told him revenge bad? That's not very realistic. At that point, the characters feel more like mouthpieces for your ideas than actual characters, and the story becomes preachy. So it's better to write great characters and let people decide for themselves what the Theme of your story is. After all, books can have hundreds of different interpretations. I've given my opinion, but I'd like to hear yours. What do you think?

Have you seen Vinland Saga?

 

[Deleted member 54065]

In my writing process, which involves planning (heavily)...

1) I establish the theme,
2) I determine the problem,
3) I write the plot,
4) I put the characters.

I think of a story as a whole, with themes and characters working as one part of an overall goal. As such, it was all 'coordinated', with the theme determining the actions of the characters in accordance to my plot, which is to solve the problems I determined after establishing the theme/genre I want to write.

For example, if my theme is all about serious revenge, I'd make my characters act on their vengeance in accordance to the plot I've written.

If I wanted to do comedy with a slice of revenge, I'd make my characters do stupid decisions that still comply with the overall theme of the story.

Point is, I don't separate theme and characters in planning and writing my work.

 

[Cipiteca396]

How do you still make that story about forgiveness? Will he forgive a dead man? Or would I have to change many plot points to make it work?

You're the author. That's what you're there for. Don't make him dead. Make him have his own family, give him a solid reason to have killed the boys parents, and then... offer the boy the same fate. If he kills the man, he's now waiting for the man's kid to come and kill him. Honestly, that one writes itself.

The trick to writing well is to integrate your message into the story, not to force it in hoping things will just work out.

Not having a message is valid though. I just want to point out that having a theme isn't a mistake.

 

[sanitylimited]

, I'd make my characters do stupid decisions that still comply with the overall theme of the story.

and thats where i drop your story.

themes are best left in the background, character motivation is what drives the plot. having the author/themes drive the plot makes the story far more shallow and 1 dimensional.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

I write a themebfor the protagonist, and a separate setting, and then look at that setting from protagonist's filter.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

and thats where i drop your story.

themes are best left in the background, character motivation is what drives the plot. having the author/themes drive the plot makes the story far more shallow and 1 dimensional.

Well, drop it then. Feel free.

 

[M.G.Driver]

In priority for fictions in my opinion.

1) Character
2) Plot
3) Setting
4) Theme

Thats why self-insert MC do so well despite being flat as fuck. I know that, because my MC is a void of personality.

 

[sanitylimited]

In priority for fictions in my opinion.

1) Character
2) Plot
3) Setting
4) Theme

Thats why self-insert MC do so well despite being flat as fuck. I know that, because my MC is a void of personality.

main characters being simple/boring isn't a bad thing, because no mater how interesting you make the main character, unless its a short story, it will eventually become boring or stupid with how frequently you would need to upgrade/change the character.

the main character acts as a baseline for the world, and the interesting characters can come and go before they overstay their welcome and become anoying. you can abandon a side character but you can't abandon the main character.

 

[LilRora]

I'd say that the problem you're talking about can be boiled down to the fact that really many people read for enjoyment or escapism instead of some profoud knowledge and ideas. So if you focus on the latter, most people coming for the former will be deterred by subpar execution.

The ideal is obviously doing both well, but if I had to choose one, I would focus on characters. Why? Because if you write a character well enough, people will automatically understand what their motives and feelings are, and if they care for it, they will be able to extract a message from your story - it's questionable if your intended message is what they make of it, but that's only natural. You can't expect everyone to understand what you want to say if you don't say it explicitly, which is generally a bad idea in stories.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I'd say that the problem you're talking about can be boiled down to the fact that really many people read for enjoyment or escapism instead of some profoud knowledge and ideas. So if you focus on the latter, most people coming for the former will be deterred by subpar execution.

The ideal is obviously doing both well, but if I had to choose one, I would focus on characters. Why? Because if you write a character well enough, people will automatically understand what their motives and feelings are, and if they care for it, they will be able to extract a message from your story - it's questionable if your intended message is what they make of it, but that's only natural. You can't expect everyone to understand what you want to say if you don't say it explicitly, which is generally a bad idea in stories.

Yeah, I agree to this, hence I use themes just to provide direction to the story I write (or I'll get lost in the sea of new ideas). Characters are there to provide motivations and actions that led to the resolution of the problems I determined in my plots.

My goal is to make themes, plots, and characters work together to complete a story.

 

[ArchlordZero]

The main theme you should focus on is "Entertainment".
It can be grim, cringe, or traumatizing, but as long as you keep your reader entertained, they will keep on flipping the pages.
But oh well, I do sometimes copy and modify quotes I see from movies/animes/games and paste them on my characters' dialogues sometimes :3

 

[Kureous]

Have you seen Vinland Saga?

No, but I'd like to. I've heard a lot of good things about it.

You're the author. That's what you're there for. Don't make him dead. Make him have his own family, give him a solid reason to have killed the boys parents, and then... offer the boy the same fate. If he kills the man, he's now waiting for the man's kid to come and kill him. Honestly, that one writes itself.

The trick to writing well is to integrate your message into the story, not to force it in hoping things will just work out.

Not having a message is valid though. I just want to point out that having a theme isn't a mistake.

I know. It's just... maybe I'm a lousy planner. I say I want it like this, and then, somewhere along the line, I think, "Wouldn't it be better if it was like this instead?" And then I change the plan. It's complicated.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

Everyone has a different process for writing fiction.

I start with the characters, the background and I don’t bother with the theme because I’m a propagandist anyway and the theme comes automatically.

 

[owotrucked]

There are multiple definition of theme, but I assume you're referring to "theme as the controlling idea".

Hans' order makes logical sense because controlling idea is built-in the conflicts and the way to solve them (plot). Just like you mentioned how you planned your story like "it's about forgiveness, and at the end of the plot, forgiveness must be a central element of salvation or positive value"

But this means that you constrain everything around it: characters and setting. And it's usually with an ending in mind, so it's a great method for resource-limited project.

Meanwhile, if you're just playing with wish fulfillment, I think it's better to set characters you like and put them in a setting where they suck and give them a plot/opportunity that brings out their hidden strentgh (then put them back at their sucky start but slightly improved). The theme will reveal itself through your choices about plot and reveal your secret vision of the world.

Edit: if you want to explore forgiveness, you'll expose more insight if the main character is on the side of culprit than victim. You'll need to show both parties because justice has a personal and subjective aspect and no one is perfect.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

When I first started writing, I was totally obsessed with Theme. I thought my story HAD to have a message, and I never understood the error I was making until recently. I saw Theme as this Almighty force that would bend my world and characters to its will, forcing them to act in peculiar ways. Let's say I want to write a story about forgiveness centered around a boy whose parents were killed. He goes to train for 13 years, returns, and discovers the man has already been killed by someone else. How do you still make that story about forgiveness? Will he forgive a dead man? Or would I have to change many plot points to make it work? Honestly, it doesn't even make a lot of sense to me because he trained for 13 years only to suddenly be like, "We cool, bro," because someone told him revenge bad? That's not very realistic. At that point, the characters feel more like mouthpieces for your ideas than actual characters, and the story becomes preachy. So it's better to write great characters and let people decide for themselves what the Theme of your story is. After all, books can have hundreds of different interpretations. I've given my opinion, but I'd like to hear yours. What do you think?

I don't think I decided on a theme until after I finished editing the story as a whole. I was worried more about the characters and plot than anything. It wasn't until after I proof read it that I realized that I had accidentally made a story with a theme about dealing with trauma.

 

[phaeous]

create a powerful plot with theme that sublimates the hero

—Ayn Rand Lexicon

The Ayn Rand Lexicon: This mini-encyclopedia of Objectivism is compiled from Ayn Rand’s statements on some 400 topics in philosophy, economics, psychology and history.

aynrandlexicon.com