The money making problem in VRMMORPGs

[NotaNuffian]

I have no idea how EVE online and other MMORPG economy fully works. If I have to guess, it is based on trust that when you sell something online to a bloke, he will pay you with paypal or something. Similar examples are Diablo having their own auction house and these are simply ways to illustrate how the money flow from in-game to IRL. Here is my problem with that when applied to novel's VRMMORPGs; griefing.

Picture this scenario, you are going on a continuous quest and maybe even streaming to earn some extra clouts on the side, the rewards for quest completion is up to ten years worth of an average man's salary and you had been slogging through for a month. The end is near, you cry out in happiness and then, a motherfucker just busted in to KS and even PKed you, causing you to not just lose the rewards, but also your progession and equipment. How the fuck has no one tried to dox the PKer and shank him to death already?

Similar cases can be fighting a raid boss, streaming for your patreons or even just grinding mats. If some dickhead decides to PK me and steal my shit, I will try my best to either locate the man myself or gather victims and campspawn the guy until he quits the game.

I of course know that there are PK guilds which are companies/ triads that will protect their members etc etc and in most of the VRMMORPGs novels, these types of griefing are handwaved with things like "untraceable to user" and it often makes me do this face.

Like why? Why would anyone think that there would be no repercussion in stealing/ robbing money? A dude got stabbed to death when he got doxxed by his murderer because the murderer thought he teabagged him in CSGO.

Ps. Limited events also count, but in this case, this is more of a competition thing and if you suck at getting the W, then it is your fault because that is akin to a buyoff.

 

[PeacefulMyst]

I've always thought about the same thing. If I was finally about to finish a quest that i've been grinding away at for months which will finally pay me ALOT of money. To pay off hospital bills or whatever other problems MCS in these VRMMOS usually have, I'll fucking kill him.

 

[IDKWtWrite-San]

Because the author didn't probably think about that or they prevented Dox by applying that the company in the novel will protect its user's privacy or someshit so that the PKer will not get be identified in real life but there username and identity in In-game will be known to others. ( Though I think the character who got killed is some rich guy or something, they probably go to a dark web and see the player info IRL to get a hold of him/her )

I think there's going to be no repurcussion because they're mob/cannon fodder mentality [except MC and other that the author like] and there ability to deal with the PKer is not enough and may cause further damage to their character and lose more resources.

 

[farmer]

A lot of things about earning money in VR games depicted in novel is unrealistic. In real life, earning money by RMT could really only be done if you're at the end-game. Because of the exponential nature of your performance progression in RPGs, the rate you earn in-game currency at level 100 is like a billion gazillion times faster compared to if you're level 70 or something. If you're not even max level and you're already bleeding progression by selling your stuff, someone else will be like 5 levels higher than you and earn money by like twice as fast.

There are two reasons a rich dumbass pays for your fake in-game items: they don't want to grind for it or the item they want comes from a random-chance mechanics (lootbox or low drop% item). For everything in game you can earn through effort, they would be valued based on how much time it took for someone to earn them. If someone at end-game can get 1 million gold by 1 hour of super efficient in-game grinding, 1 million gold would be sold for 1 hour of real-life money's amount of work... of a regular guy in third world countries. The amount of money you can earn at low levels is comparatively nothing unless you lucked out. You're not going to earn enough money for your mom's hospital bills. It just wouldn't be logical.

And griefing? No one plays a game where extreme levels of griefing can be done. Is there even a popular game IRL where PK is lucrative? Recent popular RPGs have players play in instanced maps. Kill-stealing isn't even a thing nowadays, let alone player-killing. No matter how futuristic your game is, no one is going to play it if you can get griefed that hard.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

I have no idea how EVE online and other MMORPG economy fully works. If I have to guess, it is based on trust that when you sell something online to a bloke, he will pay you with paypal or something. Similar examples are Diablo having their own auction house and these are simply ways to illustrate how the money flow from in-game to IRL. Here is my problem with that when applied to novel's VRMMORPGs; griefing.

Picture this scenario, you are going on a continuous quest and maybe even streaming to earn some extra clouts on the side, the rewards for quest completion is up to ten years worth of an average man's salary and you had been slogging through for a month. The end is near, you cry out in happiness and then, a motherfucker just busted in to KS and even PKed you, causing you to not just lose the rewards, but also your progession and equipment. How the fuck has no one tried to dox the PKer and shank him to death already?

Similar cases can be fighting a raid boss, streaming for your patreons or even just grinding mats. If some dickhead decides to PK me and steal my shit, I will try my best to either locate the man myself or gather victims and campspawn the guy until he quits the game.

I of course know that there are PK guilds which are companies/ triads that will protect their members etc etc and in most of the VRMMORPGs novels, these types of griefing are handwaved with things like "untraceable to user" and it often makes me do this face.

Like why? Why would anyone think that there would be no repercussion in stealing/ robbing money? A dude got stabbed to death when he got doxxed by his murderer because the murderer thought he teabagged him in CSGO.

Ps. Limited events also count, but in this case, this is more of a competition thing and if you suck at getting the W, then it is your fault because that is akin to a buyoff.

Most of the stories that this is based is has a based authoritarian super police state running, meaning that soyboys that get offended over getting robbed too much in a shitty game gets put down knee to neck bottom line

 

[Daitengu]

Maybe it's because I know how RM trading in an mmo works I find the vrmmo game novels to be very silly.

In Eve you can't 'really' trade real money. You buy an item that acts as a 1 month sub and can trade that in game. No one can exchange that token back into money(atleast not while staying with in the EULA/ToS). So while there is incentive to take your shit normally in a pvp game, there's less incentive to take your shit for RL profit.

In Diablo and other PvE-centric games there is no item loss from PvP. At least from company moderated RMT.

Now, there is 'unofficial' RMT in most mmos, and the people that do that generally gauge if it's even with risking getting an account ban based on likeliness of losing their stuff. Eve is rather strict on their enforcement while EQ/Runescape cares less, but will try hard to target the traders while being lenient on the customers.

So the webnovels and what not, generally just hype up an RMT system that would scare away casuals and whales for drama and tension.

Like Weed and other bandit types in Royal Road just looting people left right and center would depopulate the game so fast that most major news outlets would mock the company for their terrible RMT that tanked their game. No whale would stick with a game if they just lost 100k to a guild take over. No matter how 'good' a game is, no one is gunna try, much less stick around if you can just get your throat slit while at home and on respawn lose all your stuff as the bandit took EVERYTHING, then burned your house down for lolz.

Before game streaming was a thing, RMT became THE only way for gamers to live off of gaming in novels. So while I can understand why such a thing is in older novels, it's just not realistic at all. It's a really shit trope that should die already as it's way past it's prime and into zombie CEO money fetish territory.

 

[PancakesWitch]

This is why i just dont make PK a thing in my VR novels, I add a function that can easily disable all types of PK, and instead, there are PvP tournaments and competitions every week where players can fight for rewards that cannot be easily obtained otherwise,

 

[AnonUnlimited]

They could just make an official money exchange on the server itself by the people who make the game.

 

[Zirrboy]

I do not remember playing a game that allowed me to track another's online status and position against their will.
And if you're strapped for money, do you really want to spend days hunting them down for revenge and the offchance they haven't sold or stored items apparently worth a living?

Sure, power/revenge fantasy is what they sell, but as far as I recall the ones I read by circumvention of common game mechanics.

 

[Daitengu]

They could just make an official money exchange on the server itself by the people who make the game.

Number 1 reason that won't happen: respawns.

There is just no way to realistically curb the inflation that happens over the course of a MMO's life. There's only so many gold sinks a mmo can put in without tanking game balance. Mounts, cosmetics, housing, and vanity pets. Inventory slots is a no in a sub game, but ok in a F2P game.

Number 2 reason: It'll invite the hackers, exploiters, and scammers for profit, which kills customer accounts. World of Warcraft didn't even have that, yet back in the day people constantly lost their accounts to botters. I experienced it twice in one month. And that's with me wiping my computer in between. After losing all my stuff again I just quit the game forever.

 

[NotaNuffian]

I do not remember playing a game that allowed me to track another's online status and position against their will.
And if you're strapped for money, do you really want to spend days hunting them down for revenge and the offchance they haven't sold or stored items apparently worth a living?

Sure, power/revenge fantasy is what they sell, but as far as I recall the ones I read by circumvention of common game mechanics.

No no, the games I set example to don't have player tracking as well. That is GM level and should not be involved in common players' realm.

Yeah, the idea would be to first go and make money elsewhere while keeping the grudge for the future. Because the more important thing now is to get money and then try to hunt the guy down with your homies. That is if you have friends at all, if not then pray to whatever game deity for you guys to cross paths again... and probably get fucked a second time.

My initial thought of typing this is how frustrating it is to play in this sort of horrible field where if you are working for a living and then get unceremoniously wiped out because of a griefer. You don't have that IRL... not in proper workforce at least... I hope. Anger will be carved into you as you imagine all the lost time and effort and you just want to hunt the guy down and blanket party him ingame and IRL.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

Number 1 reason that won't happen: respawns.

There is just no way to realistically curb the inflation that happens over the course of a MMO's life. There's only so many gold sinks a mmo can put in without tanking game balance. Mounts, cosmetics, housing, and vanity pets. Inventory slots is a no in a sub game, but ok in a F2P game.

Number 2 reason: It'll invite the hackers, exploiters, and scammers for profit, which kills customer accounts. World of Warcraft didn't even have that, yet back in the day people constantly lost their accounts to botters. I experienced it twice in one month. And that's with me wiping my computer in between. After losing all my stuff again I just quit the game forever.

It doesn't seem to be working against EVE online. The hackers and such I mean. A real money exchange that is the server lets people buy from each other and the official server takes a cut. A real world example would be steam trading cards and CSGO skins. You can buy and sell via steam wallet, some people trade via 3rd party exchangers.

 

[Wintertime]

I mean, I've been making loads of money from playing games competitively for years, so I have some experience in this matter. I hit Challenger in League of Legends and have been top rankings in MMOs most of my life. You can ask me anything, I have an answer. Also, to answer some questions, Meaningful Inflation problems only happen when one of two things occur. There aren't enough gold sinks into the game, or the developers can't keep up with player demand for content. Both of these problems can be solved in a book setting.

Also, there are a shit ton of ways to make money in video games. I could list like twenty, and that wouldn't be enough.

 

[NotaNuffian]

I mean, I've been making loads of money from playing games competitively for years, so I have some experience in this matter. I hit Challenger in League of Legends and have been top rankings in MMOs most of my life. You can ask me anything, I have an answer. Also, to answer some questions, Meaningful Inflation problems only happen when one of two things occur. There aren't enough gold sinks into the game, or the developers can't keep up with player demand for content. Both of these problems can be solved in a book setting.

Also, there are a shit ton of ways to make money in video games. I could list like twenty, and that wouldn't be enough.

Well the thread here isn't about making money in video games, it is about the absurdity of VRMMORPGs or any gaming novels introducing the concept of getting your money stolen ingame just to add immersion and stakes.

As you can see in real life games, no game company would put in free for all PK and item drops because it will make their games unappealing to the masses.*

*I think there are some games with such functions but they are not mainstream.

 

[Wintertime]

Well the thread here isn't about making money in video games, it is about the absurdity of VRMMORPGs or any gaming novels introducing the concept of getting your money stolen ingame just to add immersion and stakes.

I mean the implementation of stealing money is fine. EVE online you can steal transport ships by destroying them and grabbing their loot. That doesn't mean people will be stealing them without risking a Guild War. Often, Guilds will protect their members. Alliances, Coalitions, etc. Just read up a lot of EVE history. Most VR-MMOs don't have land acquisition or war over territory, so stealing money is kinda absurd, but it can be done well given the right circumstances (and right game).

 

[NotaNuffian]

I mean the implementation of stealing money is fine. EVE online you can steal transport ships by destroying them and grabbing their loot. That doesn't mean people will be stealing them without risking a Guild War. Often, Guilds will protect their members. Alliances, Coalitions, etc. Just read up a lot of EVE history. Most VR-MMOs don't have land acquisition or war over territory, so stealing money is kinda absurd, but it can be done well given the right circumstances (and right game).

So as stated by @Daitengu , you can get money into EVE but you can't get money out of it...? Yeah I am confused by how people are making money out of EVE, so I am even more confused as to how people are willingly pumping money into a space (not just virtual) where it is like a gambling den (where you go in blind) or a stock market (where you at least have some sense in what you are doing).

 

[Zirrboy]

No no, the games I set example to don't have player tracking as well. That is GM level and should not be involved in common players' realm.

Yeah, the idea would be to first go and make money elsewhere while keeping the grudge for the future. Because the more important thing now is to get money and then try to hunt the guy down with your homies. That is if you have friends at all, if not then pray to whatever game deity for you guys to cross paths again... and probably get fucked a second time.

My initial thought of typing this is how frustrating it is to play in this sort of horrible field where if you are working for a living and then get unceremoniously wiped out because of a griefer. You don't have that IRL... not in proper workforce at least... I hope. Anger will be carved into you as you imagine all the lost time and effort and you just want to hunt the guy down and blanket party him ingame and IRL.

But if they can kill you it's obviously by design of the creators. So what exactly do you expect GMs to do?
Listen to the whiny little bitch who set out knowing the risks, but doesn't want to take the loss?

And if they shouldn't interfere, what exactly is wrong with a specific person not being traceable in settings that usually have the game played by millions around the world?

 

[Wintertime]

So as stated by @Daitengu , you can get money into EVE but you can't get money out of it...? Yeah I am confused by how people are making money out of EVE, so I am even more confused as to how people are willingly pumping money into a space (not just virtual) where it is like a gambling den (where you go in blind) or a stock market (where you at least have some sense in what you are doing).

You can get money into EVE and out of it, wdym? ISK can be exchanged for real currency, but it's just prohibited in the game. (Doesn't mean that players won't do it, you just get the risk of getting your account banned.) Also, it's not a gambling den because there are structures in place that the players create. Just like in any Sandbox, Alliances act as their individual city-states, and each player has actions that affect others. It's like simulated economics in a game world.

Just the same reason why countries won't invade other countries for the risk of war, millions of dollars being spent on resources, and arming the populace in times of peace, every action in EVE online matters. Alliances will tax you for protection. Alliances will control territory with resources, and alliances will go to war against other alliances to expand their territory or wage war over ground.

 

[farmer]

I mean, I've been making loads of money from playing games competitively for years, so I have some experience in this matter. I hit Challenger in League of Legends and have been top rankings in MMOs most of my life. You can ask me anything, I have an answer. Also, to answer some questions, Meaningful Inflation problems only happen when one of two things occur. There aren't enough gold sinks into the game, or the developers can't keep up with player demand for content. Both of these problems can be solved in a book setting.

Also, there are a shit ton of ways to make money in video games. I could list like twenty, and that wouldn't be enough.

What novels do you think has a realistic portrayal of earning money through games? What game can that portrayal work on?

In MMORPG, I think people can earn money by streaming, by selling accounts, by grinding end-game content, by lucking out getting rare stuff opening cash boxes, by lucking out getting rare drop item after malding on the same stage/against the same enemy over and over, there's also buying items and enchanting them en-masse and selling the items that managed to successfully get enchanted. And other stuffs from the game development side like being sponsored for beta testing or doing media promotion for the game.

There're a few ways, but I've never read a story that realistically portray them for MMORPG.

 

[Wintertime]

What novels do you think has a realistic portrayal of earning money through games? What game can this work on?

In MMORPG, I think people can earn money by streaming, by selling accounts, by grinding end-game content, by lucking out getting rare stuff opening cash boxes, by lucking out getting rare drop item after malding on the same stage/against the same enemy over and over, there's also buying items and enchanting them en-masse and selling the items that managed to successfully get enchanted. And other stuffs from the game development side like being sponsored for beta testing or doing media promotion for the game.

There're a few ways, but I've never read a story that realistically portray them in MMORPG.

I mean the thing is, novels don't really need a realistic portrayal of earning money through MMOs. The point of an MMO novel is that making money is not the main focus of the MMO, but rather how the character progresses through the MMO. The MMO setting is just a backdrop to characters interacting with other characters, bosses, content, which most people would care about.

Simulating a realistic portrayal of economics through MMO settings can be done, but you might as well write a novel simulation of real life. That's why Solo Leveling got so popular; It's really just an MMO but brought to the real world. You don't need to build a world around an MMO if there's already one that everyone is familiar with.

"Gates" that spawn in the real world are just Dungeons that people clear.

The "in-game currency" is just real currency now.

"Items, Weapons, Levels, etc," are just parameters for how people can get stronger by investing time through the system. Much like how when you invest time in a company or build something, you get money in return. Just as you spend time to level up, you get items and whatnot to exchange for money.

Normal people that arent "Awakened" are now NPCs.

Companies are now Guilds.

Countries are now Alliances.

Get the parallel?

Now, companies can control gates, they lease gates to "Awakened" people. People clear dungeons and get rewards, and those rewards are bought/sold for real-life money. You can get killed in real life, you just lose all your items and there is permadeath. It's the equivalent of the game dropping all your items and banning you when you die.