Target Audience, Cult Followings, and the Problem in Mainstream Entertainment

[MatchaChocolate69]

Bruh.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

So, just because I wasted less time than you spent on writing, it invalidates the fact I wasted time? Good to know. The next time I read a terrible cashgrab slop I will be sure to rate it 5 star, cause I don't want to hurt author's feeling.

 

[Tyranomaster]

If that review had been a 3/5 would you have made this thread in the first place?

I mean, you only have my word on this, but yes. Like 2 days ago I watched a video about Smiling Friends that went down a similar vein as to why many series (like Rick and Morty) end up going down paths that alienate their audience in the long run, and how they hoped it wouldn't happen to it too. This review was well worded, and as I read it, something clicked that this is exactly the kind of feedback that leads to audience alienation.

Nah, you huff copium at the moment, since you replied to my message, but didn't actually reply and tried to change the topic. It has nothing to do with getting triggered about mainstream entertainment, you got triggered because someone invalidated you, and now you seek validation from us. Not like you can't do it.

Anyway, you are butthurt my brother. And again, not like you can't do it, or I forbid you, or whatever. But yeah, don't try to pretend like it is something else. If you weren't butthurt, you would do it the same way you did your "How to gain readers" guide, and wouldn't make the thread literally the same day you got that review.

I know it's your schtick to just be snarky, but this really just reads as, "I don't have anything to contribute, but I have to maintain my #1 forum spot somehow, and this is how I farm engagement." It works, but I never take anything you say seriously because it really feels like you're just clinging to that one thing.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I know it's your schtick to just be snarky, but this really just reads as, "I don't have anything to contribute, but I have to maintain my #1 forum spot somehow, and this is how I farm engagement. It works, but I never take anything you say seriously because it really feels like you're just clinging to that one thing.

 

[Deleted member 76176]

Enough bickering. Please know that you can criticize something without petty-calling each other.

 

[MatchaChocolate69]

So, just because I wasted less time than you spent on writing, it invalidates the fact I wasted time? Good to know. The next time I read a terrible cashgrab slop I will be sure to rate it 5 star, cause I don't want to hurt author's feeling.

You're starting from a wrong assumption. We are on Scribble Hub and we are amateur authors. You can't compare a commercial work with the novels you find here. They are different worlds, and it's unfair to evaluate them with the same criteria. Reading what we write costs nothing. If the product isn't good, it simply gets ignored and ends up forgotten.

But there are obviously those who see that something has a decent following and can't comprehend it and can't tolerate it. After all, no one can have tastes different from theirs. "How is it possible that this garbage is appreciated? I hate this genre! Why doesn't the author write what I want? I'll show them."

Voilà, in two seconds, a nonsensical negative comment and a 1-star rating. If they want to appear as a critic, maybe two stars.

Enough bickering. Please know that you can criticize something without petty-calling each other.

Sorry if I came across as offensive, I assure you that I'm just expressing my opinion and I have no negative feelings towards Sailus.

 

[Dieter]

SH Writers trying not the write a whole essay whenever someone leaves a bad review on their story challenge (impossible)

 

[RepresentingWrath]

You're starting from a wrong assumption. We are on Scribble Hub and we are amateur authors. You can't compare a commercial work with the novels you find here. They are different worlds, and it's unfair to evaluate them with the same criteria. Reading what we write costs nothing. If the product isn't good, it simply gets ignored and ends up forgotten.

But there are obviously those who see that something has a decent following and can't comprehend it and can't tolerate it. After all, no one can have tastes different from theirs. "How is it possible that this garbage is appreciated? I hate this genre! Why doesn't the author write what I want? I'll show them."

Voilà, in two seconds, a nonsensical negative comment and a 1-star rating. If they want to appear as a critic, maybe two stars.

I am doing the same thing you did, it's that simple. Make it sound favorable to your take. ?‍

You say.

Jokes aside, there's no comparison: writing a novel takes months, effort, and sacrifices. Reading a 1000-word chapter takes at most fifteen minutes, leaving a 1-star rating takes at most a second.

So all I did in return is simply make a comparison that is favorable for my take. With exaggeration and sarcasm. And if you keep trying to think of "examples", we can't have a discussion in good faith. Since I can do the same thing.

Voilà, in two seconds, a nonsensical negative comment and a 1-star rating. If they want to appear as a critic, maybe two stars.

You absolutely ignore and downplay the fact that the reviewer in question, the one who rated Tyranomaster's novel read 100+ chapters. How convenient to say it takes two seconds, when that person did not. Unless he is blue, has a huge head, and his name is Megamind. That way I'll believe it took him two seconds to read it all.

 

[Deleted member 76176]

But there are obviously those who see that something has a decent following and can't comprehend it and can't tolerate it. After all, no one can have tastes different from theirs. "How is it possible that this garbage is appreciated? I hate this genre! Why doesn't the author write what I want? I'll show them."

Voilà, in two seconds, a nonsensical negative comment and a 1-star rating. If they want to appear as a critic, maybe two stars.

We are defining and fighting imaginary enemies here. I used to and still make the same mistake, as regularly pointed out by my friend. Regardless of the author's intention here, this post isn't about unreasonable readers. Nobody here would hopefully disagree that those people are not terrible. So simply put, you are trying to prove a point that doesn't need to be proved. Especially since the topic at hand doesn't center around them

Sorry, I'd love to use a softer language, but I don't know how. Please do not take it harshly.

 

[melchi]

I read it some but couldn't get into it. Goblins and and imps in a cave didn't really hook me. I didn't leave a review though because that was just personal preference.

 

[Zirrboy]

I do think authors should take such reviews to heart, just not at face value. "Why did that reader think the story would or should include parts that I never planned?"

Anyone is fully entitled to have their story be about whatever they want it to be. And it's probably inevitable to get some readers who project their own content wishes onto it no matter what. But that does not mean that your presentation and thereby advertisement of what you want to write is without fault.

I haven't read your story so the following is just made up to illustrate my point, but perhaps you had more individual characters with plausible future development early on when the story was still operating on a smaller scale who disappear into a faceless crowd later. You might have never meant them to be anything other than figureheads for more abstract aspects of the managed society, and they still might come across as more.

Now, again, the point I'm trying to make isn't that authors are categorically at fault when someone dislikes their novel or that this specific review is necessarily justified. I simply think that there is no benefit for authors to ignore reviews other than preservation of their mental state, even if the takeaway points end up having nothing to do with what the reviewer explicitly suggested.

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

I mean, at least they were nice enough to let you know why they were rating it a 1/5 instead of not saying anything at all and just doing the random 1* review with no way to improve.

Even if it isn't what you will do because you believe it's a style-based opinion, it's still a valid opinion that anyone can have. Honestly, they at least told you where you could improve and how to do so. I'd say that is as helpful a review as they will come.

I'd take those any day over the random 1* review that tells me 0 ways to improve.

 

[Tyranomaster]

I mean, at least they were nice enough to let you know why they were rating it a 1/5 instead of not saying anything at all and just doing the random 1* review with no way to improve.

Even if it isn't what you will do because you believe it's a style-based opinion, it's still a valid opinion that anyone can have. Honestly, they at least told you where you could improve and how to do so. I'd say that is as helpful a review as they will come.

I'd take those any day over the random 1* review that tells me 0 ways to improve.

I think it's easy to say that what they've offered is a way to "Help me improve", but that depends on what my goal is, and how I evaluate what I'm doing.

If my goal, as an author, was to get as many readers as possible and be #1 (aiming for a Stephen King like position), then absolutely, this review is helpful.

However, that isn't the point. I'm not writing for that. I'm writing a story that I'd like to read, and that apparently, about a thousand others want to read also. On scribblehub, I'd say I'm at around maximum audience capture for my story, on RR, I'm at about 1/3rd of total available audience capture.

The point is that, while their opinion is valid, and in fact, shared by many people, it's not conducive to the way I intend to write my story, nor to the audience I'm trying to appeal to. For this particular novel, taking their advice to "improve" the story, would very likely lead to a loss of audience, rather than gaining audience. I'd have to re-write the whole thing to apply to an entirely different audience, who just as well would rather read novels designed to follow that format, rather than this one.

When starting out, any and all advice can feel like an improvement (in any field), especially when you're desperate to get better. As you become more and more proficient in a field, you have to be more and more discerning about what actually is an improvement, further, you need to evaluate whether certain improvements are worth your time to actually undertake.

It's very easy to just listen to others advice, follow it, then shrug when things don't work out. It's hard to make decisions to go against the written grain, especially when people give feedback that you should do it differently.

Context matters though! If I had almost no readers, then this would be a FANTASTIC review. It'd give me something to go off of and start improving my skills.

(Editor's note: Hey, I've just realized that I make a lot of fishing analogies, and I should maybe start picking different ones, I don't even like to fish that much...)
However, in this situation, I'm essentially getting the following advice: "Hey, you know that actually you should use a motorboat when you're fishing. Here are all the reasons it's good. I know that you're using a canoe, and you enjoy canoeing, and this is about fishing in a canoe, but I enjoy using a motorboat, and you should use it too. Everyone here would actually like the motorboat more. Look at how many more people use motorboats, here, look at these models and tell me which one you want to use."

If I had no idea how I wanted to fish, and no one was going canoeing with me, but I really wanted to go fishing with people, the advice would be helpful. However, I've got a bunch of people who I'm already canoeing with multiple times a week, and we're enjoying fishing together, so the advice isn't advice at all.

 

[NineHeadHeavenDevouringSerpent]

"The industry is failing because too many people take well thought out reviews to heart, and change their work to fit that."

This kind of problem isn't limited to writing, and actually has very little to do with reviews. Passion writers inherently won't "care" and get "influenced" by others cause the drive itself is sufficient enough for them, their goal is to finish the journey and get the fulfillment from it. Whereas say a writer who is looking to commercialize and needs those numbers rolling in, is inevitably subject to get influenced with what's running on the front page.

I'm not implying there's no middle grounds here, but i fail to see the point in dissecting reviewers for something that's upto authors. Even "slop" genre authors who do it for numbers are prone to get angsty when something else is on the trends.



It's not about what your post wrote exactly, it's what it implied and opened upto that irked me XD. While you may have intended for it to be taken as a caution to authors to not forget why they started their novels, it devolved into readers vs authors.

Might have helped if there was more context to it, rather than ending it off with "more slop for the masses.." XD

Also authors on the online literature sphere needs to understand their grounds too, it's an open pitch where all manners of people young to old, and in huge numbers get to express their views. It's bound to be unregulated and informal compared to book reviews offline where only critics get to publish their views about a certain book.

writing a novel takes months, effort, and sacrifices. Reading a 1000-word chapter takes at most fifteen minutes, leaving a 1-star rating takes at most a second. They have the power to harm without any responsibility, and some individuals enjoy doing it.

It sucks, but we have to move on and ignore them, focusing instead on those who offer constructive criticism or appreciate the work.

Authors should not feel they are entitled to anything from their readers, that's epitome of vanity. The only power they hold is the power you let them have by publishing your work in this space.

As for the trolls, it's the responsibility of the host to make sure there's a standard for reviewing, it's the internet and there's bound to be trolls. It's not right to mingle those with negative reviewers.

You can't expect the pulitzer jury level of standards on the internet though, like c'mon you knew what you were signing up for in scribblehub or whichever other platforms. Even the most successful ones from here go through several edits and polishing when they get paperbacks or adapted elsewhere. It's known there's no base standard for publishing your works here and there's no enforcement to reach higher standards on the author side....then why expect such from the casual readers?

 

[Tyranomaster]

Might have helped if there was more context to it, rather than ending it off with "more slop for the masses.." XD

The fact that reality TV, soap operas, smut, porn, and Stephen King are all incredibly popular show that the masses want slop. They have plenty of slop. In fact, they've been turning things like Ghost Busters, Star Wars, and even Marvel into slop for a while now too. There is a whole slop buffet. People make a lot of money making it. However, I think that most people within the writing space recognize that most of it is, in fact, slop. It's sloppy, shallow, and poorly written, and by god do the people love it. More power to the people who write and read it.

However, I don't think everything should be infected by some perverted version of capitalism where "everyone should always try to make the most amount of money and appeal to the widest possible audience at all times." I have my audience, I know my audience, and I'm not going to change my story because people who aren't in my audience would enjoy it slightly more.

I've found my niche, a nice medium to small sized pond where I can do my thing, and write what I'd want to read. It's easy to fall for "The grass is always greener". "I'd just do better if I changed this one thing.".

I did a poll on Royal Road a while ago about what people would entice them to support my Patreon. People want more chapters first, and then in a close second, SCHEMATIC DRAWINGS. Not artwork. Schematic drawings. These are my kind of people, the people who read my story. In many ways, my story reads like an informal technical reading. There are people, believe it or not, who enjoy that (myself included).

I know my story is an odd duck. However, most stories that succeed have some interesting quirk to them (if they don't, then what's the pull to read it?). Critically evaluating reviews doesn't necessarily mean doing what they say.

 

[Zagaroth]

I always think the best reviewers are people who:

1) Can put their own preferences (mostly) aside and review the novel for what it's trying to be. For example, I'm not a huge fan of 1st person, but I won't criticise a novel for choosing that POV. I don't like or read BL, but if I read a BL novel I'm never going to give it a one star review because "wtf this novel would be amazing without BL". Review the novel for what the author is trying to make it, and not because it doesn't satisfy your personal vision of a perfect piece of literature.

There is an exception to this, and it's when the reviewer truly believes the POV chosen is holding the novel back and harming the story in a demonstrable way. Sometimes a POV challenge can be very constructive and cause the writer grow.

2) Don't slam a review down to 1 star because of a single problem they have with the novel while the other twenty things are good or acceptable.

Unfortunately, there will always be problematic reviewers, and eventually, if given enough time, every novel will encounter at least one.

Agreed. I have given strongly positive reviews to stories that were absolutely not for me. Example: I don't care for grimdark worlds where people who want to be decent people have to be awful people instead, just to survive.

But at the same time, I can read several chapters of such a story and independently evaluate the quality of the writing and world-building, and rate & review based off that, with the caveat of the rating being for people who enjoy a grimdark story with these elements and saying that it might not rate as well for people who dislike such stories.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I did a poll on Royal Road a while ago about what people would entice them to support my Patreon. People want more chapters first, and then in a close second, SCHEMATIC DRAWINGS. Not artwork. Schematic drawings. These are my kind of people, the people who read my story. In many ways, my story reads like an informal technical reading. There are people, believe it or not, who enjoy that (myself included).

Now I see why you resorted to attacking my personality. Have a good day.

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

I think it's easy to say that what they've offered is a way to "Help me improve", but that depends on what my goal is, and how I evaluate what I'm doing.

If my goal, as an author, was to get as many readers as possible and be #1 (aiming for a Stephen King like position), then absolutely, this review is helpful.

However, that isn't the point. I'm not writing for that. I'm writing a story that I'd like to read, and that apparently, about a thousand others want to read also. On scribblehub, I'd say I'm at around maximum audience capture for my story, on RR, I'm at about 1/3rd of total available audience capture.

It doesn't stop the review from being helpful just because it doesn't apply to what you want to do with your story. Or are you saying you would rather get no reviews and get the 1 * without feedback on why that particular reader did it? If so, I'm still lost on why it affects you so much on what they said.

The point is that, while their opinion is valid, and in fact, shared by many people, it's not conducive to the way I intend to write my story, nor to the audience I'm trying to appeal to. For this particular novel, taking their advice to "improve" the story, would very likely lead to a loss of audience, rather than gaining audience. I'd have to re-write the whole thing to apply to an entirely different audience, who just as well would rather read novels designed to follow that format, rather than this one.

Feedback doesn't mean rewriting the story. If you wish, it could be something you carry on to other stories you make. Or you can simply ignore it.

Context matters though! If I had almost no readers, then this would be a FANTASTIC review. It'd give me something to go off of and start improving my skills.

With readers or without readers, it's still a fantastic review. It tells you their opinion even if it doesn't apply to you. Like I said, I'd rather know their thoughts and get the 1* review with absolutely no context. Even if their review is dog poo, that won't help me at all.

I know my story is an odd duck. However, most stories that succeed have some interesting quirk to them (if they don't, then what's the pull to read it?). Critically evaluating reviews doesn't necessarily mean doing what they say.

Never said to do what they say. Reviews are just that: feedback, either positive or negative. You can choose to ignore it or not. Ultimately, it's your story, and you choose how it rolls. No one else does, and if you found your flow, that's good. I really hope you keep going because more stories with different little niches out there make it more interesting.


You don't need to listen to it, but it doesn't stop it from being helpful. Heck, other readers can read that review and that way, they will know where your flaws are and can choose to read it or not. It might keep negative comments from coming your way later on.


Sadly, every story is flawed. There are always places to improve, and no matter what you do, people will point it out.

Now I see why you resorted to attacking my personality. Have a good day.

Yeti of the snowy mountains can't be harmed! You're too cold to be harmed by words! Arise!

 

[MatchaChocolate69]

We are defining and fighting imaginary enemies here. I used to and still make the same mistake, as regularly pointed out by my friend. Regardless of the author's intention here, this post isn't about unreasonable readers. Nobody here would hopefully disagree that those people are not terrible. So simply put, you are trying to prove a point that doesn't need to be proved. Especially since the topic at hand doesn't center around them

Sorry, I'd love to use a softer language, but I don't know how. Please do not take it harshly.

I was explaining to Sailus why most 1 and 2-star reviews shouldn't be taken seriously because those who give them don't have an opinion worth considering. It wasn't just directed at him but to all writers who get upset when they receive such ratings. It wasn't my intention to go off-topic, and I apologize for that. I was just responding to those who mentioned me, showing my point of view in the simplest way possible.

Don't worry, I understand your intentions and don't take it personally. I hope you can understand mine. Even if you don't, I don't hold anything against you.

So all I did in return is simply make a comparison that is favorable for my take. With exaggeration and sarcasm. And if you keep trying to think of "examples", we can't have a discussion in good faith. Since I can do the same thing.

I'll give you simple examples to explain in a straightforward way how I think these individuals who leave negative reviews think. I believe my point is quite clear.

You absolutely ignore and downplay the fact that the reviewer in question, the one who rated Tyranomaster's novel read 100+ chapters. How convenient to say it takes two seconds, when that person did not. Unless he is blue, has a huge head, and his name is Megamind. That way I'll believe it took him two seconds to read it all.

Sorry, but how can I take seriously a reader who, after reading 100 chapters, leaves a one-star review? Do you really think that's a fair evaluation? If it was so terrible to deserve a one-star rating, why did you read 100, and I repeat, ONE HUNDRED chapters? Were you forced? Did someone hold a gun to your head? Excuse the colorful language, but it serves to emphasize the absurdity of the situation. If you read one hundred chapters, it's because it captured your interest at least for a while and entertained you. It might have flaws and not be the work of the century, but a fair evaluation cannot be that low.

You can't expect the pulitzer jury level of standards on the internet though, like c'mon you knew what you were signing up for in scribblehub or whichever other platforms. Even the most successful ones from here go through several edits and polishing when they get paperbacks or adapted elsewhere. It's known there's no base standard for publishing your works here and there's no enforcement to reach higher standards on the author side....then why expect such from the casual readers?

Obviously, I don't expect a great literary jury, nor do I want one. I just expect that if what I write doesn't match what someone expects, they move on without damaging my work with their opinion, which I don't care about, and buy a real book instead. That way, they can complain to an author who does it for a living and has the responsibility to meet their needs, while I don't. I don't take seriously those who leave 1 or 2-star ratings or reviews on this site. That's my opinion.

 

[NineHeadHeavenDevouringSerpent]

The fact that reality TV, soap operas, smut, porn, and Stephen King are all incredibly popular show that the masses want slop.

No no no, the point was that by ending with that phrase you opened upto people interpreting it as they vs them, there's a slop mass vs their good mass. World media is cooked and that's been a fact for a while now, it's a slogfest of extreme wokisim to a point where even the targeted group are revolted by their representation. There's no logic behind that crap.

But that's no reason to draw hate on negative reviewers here who are basically casuals who just want to read their favourite plots over and over again.

However, I don't think everything should be infected by some perverted version of capitalism where "everyone should always try to make the most amount of money and appeal to the widest possible audience at all times." I have my audience, I know my audience, and I'm not going to change my story because people who aren't in my audience would enjoy it slightly more.

Commendable, if only more authors realise this. I see many postings here asking how they can increase their traffic, why they are getting low stars, many who are insecure and feel that they are not writing the "right" stuffs. They fail to understand that there's never going to be the one "right" stuff (other than smut XD).

I know my story is an odd duck. However, most stories that succeed have some interesting quirk to them (if they don't, then what's the pull to read it?). Critically evaluating reviews doesn't necessarily mean doing what they say.

Amen, and yes it would be demeaning to oneself to be swayed entirely by anyone's perception of your work. Learn what it looks like through their eyes? Yes, learn what clicks and doesn't? Yes, but chase after that always? No. Not even sailors follow the wind all the time, there's times to go with the wind and times you need to close the sails and direct your ship to your own goals.



Ps: Maybe it's time for a overhaul of the algorithm that determines what's trending and what's not. It's sad to see the state of authors not feeling appreciated rightly cause of reviewers and that leading to antagonism between readers and authors. This is supposed to be a close knit community where readers and authors are practically in the same house interacting with each other. It won't be nice seeing them drift apart due to their difference in preferences.