Stop making boring magic cultures

[CarburetorThompson]

How often have you read a story where the desert nomad people use sand magic? Or the northerners use runic ice magic?

Sure you can make a lore explanation for stuff like this, like ‘sand magic is most powerful in the desert so of course they use it there’ which seems to be the most common explanation. Realistically though I find hard to see a culture develop like this.

I feel this trend has become dull, and to me it makes world building feel little more than shallow set dressing. I think it would be both more realistic and more interesting to see desert nomads that are masters of ice or water magic, or northern barbarians who survive in the frigid tundra because of their exceprional pyromancy skills.

Just the pondering of a trashy web novel reader. I’m sure this problem is less apparent in the works of professionally published fantasy authors, but I can’t read those books for free on the internet (at least without dubious methods) so I will continue to complain about things of which are self inflicted

 

[RepresentingCaution]

*pats head* Let people enjoy things.

I can’t read those books for free on the internet

Have you tried your local library?

 

[Racosharko]

How often have you read a story where the desert nomad people use sand magic? Or the northerners use runic ice magic?

I feel attacked.

 

[Glitched]

Realistically though I find hard to see a culture develop like this.

This is exactly how culture would develop realistically. Sand in the area, so I learn to use sand. Forest in an area, so I learn to make use of the trees. Open meadows, so I make use of the meadows rather than try to compartmentalize the space. Naturally, humans are inclined to make use of what is easiest to access. After all, less effort to reap a reward means a greater efficiency. Plus, from a magic perspective, having said material or environment nearby likely serves as a source of teaching material or stimulant for the magic that's being learned. I imagine it would be hard to teach a winter people fire magic. Why? Assuming there's some entry level into magic, fire is fundamentally the opposite of water(on most magic trees). These guys have been subjected to cold temperatures and ice all their lives. To suddenly learn unfamiliar fire stuff as magic when all its served so far to the people is light and heat is odd. Compare that with the cold that has been with then since birth. It's molded them, shaped their lives, its one of the things they are most acquainted with. Why not start their magic journey there?

I digress.

Point is, it makes sense.

I feel this trend has become dull, and to me it makes world building feel little more than shallow set dressing.

Fair point. It is repeated quite often. Not much I can say to that other than authors could be more creative in some form or fashion.

 

[Mystic_Grasshopper]

Bro will say this and then his kin will say some shit like:
"Why would you make it unintuitive and why do you use made up terms, it doesn't make it unique."

My point being I don't feel like you understand how much authors risk being rejected for not doing what everyone else does. Someone may even look at what you're saying and do it only for other readers to shit on them. And honestly nowadays even "original" web fantasy reads like fanfics because the story is the main character's unique power, cheat, skills, absorption of skills, and not actual worldbuilding because you "know" what kind of fantasy world they have it's medieval but there's other non-human races or whatever handwaved in there. And the authors like this don't feel the need to change because there's enough people reading that don't question it.

Now I will say I agree with you but you do seem pretentious by pretending published work is exempt from this.

 

[BigBadBoi]

Real men build their magic system around their fetishes

 

[rgv]

I like job oriented magic myself. Get yourself a Roman era road building crew with magic to build a hundred miles of road in a week or two. Got fire using magical knights? They spend most of their time putting out forest fires and doing fire watches in cities, until there's actually a war on. Got magical knights who shatter things? They sell the gravel they make practicing for the Order's coffers. Got a guy with wind magic who can send messages miles away? A messenger who outperforms all the rest of the guys who actually have to travel there.

Oh, and don't forget the religious healers vs. physicians, who jostle to show why they're the superior option.

 

[JayMark]

I'm tired of cultures that drink liquid, eat food, and breathe air. Frankly it is overdone and repetitive. Every book, novel, or magazine I read it's these water drinking, food eating, mouth breathers and I'm not sure how much longer I can deal with it. 99.9999999% of all matter in the universe doesn't do these things and is being left out of story telling.

 

[beast_regards]

Refuse to use magic and use your muscle to swing your big axe bigly like the most protagonists of the Western harem novel (aka men's fantasy) do!

 

[RepresentingWrath]

fr fr

 

[CarburetorThompson]

This is exactly how culture would develop realistically. Sand in the area, so I learn to use sand. Forest in an area, so I learn to make use of the trees. Open meadows, so I make use of the meadows rather than try to compartmentalize the space. Naturally, humans are inclined to make use of what is easiest to access. After all, less effort to reap a reward means a greater efficiency. Plus, from a magic perspective, having said material or environment nearby likely serves as a source of teaching material or stimulant for the magic that's being learned. I imagine it would be hard to teach a winter people fire magic. Why? Assuming there's some entry level into magic, fire is fundamentally the opposite of water(on most magic trees). These guys have been subjected to cold temperatures and ice all their lives. To suddenly learn unfamiliar fire stuff as magic when all its served so far to the people is light and heat is odd. Compare that with the cold that has been with then since birth. It's molded them, shaped their lives, its one of the things they are most acquainted with. Why not start their magic journey there?

I digress.

Point is, it makes sense.

Fair point. It is repeated quite often. Not much I can say to that other than authors could be more creative in some form or fashion.

I already addressed this in the original post. It’s easy for an author to write it so it makes sense for magic to be location based. The author is the creator of the world, they can change the laws of reality however they like so there is no use arguing for why it would be most effective for certain people because it will always come down to an author’s personal preference.

That being said, I disagree with your argument about learning from the natural environment. People like the Icelandic Vikings would have spent just as much time accompanied by fire as they would the cold, if they didn’t they would have died. The city of Petra located in the middle of the desolate Jordanian desert was famous their aqueducts, damns, under ground water reservoirs. Water was just as important culturally as the sandstone they built their houses from.

Saying

Now I will say I agree with you but you do seem pretentious by pretending published work is exempt from this.

Of course published works aren’t exempt from this, I just haven’t read enough of it to make an informed declaration. From what I have read however, I have seen greater attention given to the cultural aspects of world building, which is what my claim is based on.

 

[Seaspecter]

 

[corruption]

People would study the local environment and understand how it works. When studying magic, they would most easily use the magic with things they understand.

I can imagine people trying to study a range of magic. Water magic in the desert to locate it and to draw moisture out of the air is an example I think they would do. Sand magic? Is that a sub-set of earth magic? Maybe wind magic for desert storms?
Ice magic for people in cold based areas? Ice is around and easier to use as it is based in water. Maybe some learn wind-based magic to better detect things or lessen blizzards.
Fire based magic for them would have to make sense. Maybe used for warming up their places, and keeping the heat in? Blood magic for healing?

Just have what you use it for make sense and be appropriate for the people

 

[Tsuru]

People would study the local environment and understand how it works. When studying magic, they would most easily use the magic with things they understand.

I can imagine people trying to study a range of magic. Water magic in the desert to locate it and to draw moisture out of the air is an example I think they would do. Sand magic? Is that a sub-set of earth magic? Maybe wind magic for desert storms?
Ice magic for people in cold based areas? Ice is around and easier to use as it is based in water. Maybe some learn wind-based magic to better detect things or lessen blizzards.
Fire based magic for them would have to make sense. Maybe used for warming up their places, and keeping the heat in? Blood magic for healing?

Just have what you use it for make sense and be appropriate for the people

Your ice example is quite insightful and true.


Fire magic = the clan thrive and survive the cold winter
No fire magic = everyone die by the cold

And the guy that awaken fire element, is suddenly acclaimed by everyone
(though it kinda reminds of the shitty fastfood isekais with expulsed-from-party/family trope, which is annoying)
Welp, lets skip this one.



Anyway, one could write a story where a small clan (like the one of the size of The last airbender AVATAR/dozens of people, 3-6 families) basically rely on the only kid that luckily awakened his fire element.
And you got this family bond kind of thing going on. Which would feel warm (no pun intended).
He isnt put in pedestral or anything, just normal kid (MC). Others can basically fish (harpoon), or fight, etc, and him, basically with his low mana reserve as a kid, can do a small but decent sized flame where everyone hug together around, in a big igloo. Like a big group of penguins.
This wholesomeness of it, feels like a animeish JP ad to be honest. Like "work together and it will works out".
No bs, no big trope, no exaggeration.

 

[SternenklarenRitter]

I think the wider issue is that elemental attack magic is overused. There are all sorts of creative ways to use magic, but all the protagonists just want to throw a fireball. One character I read had a magical ability to talk to inanimate objects. And have them talk back. It wasn't a terribly useful ability; inanimate objects aren't very smart (they don't have brains) so they usually just insulted him.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

I think the wider issue is that elemental attack magic is overused. There are all sorts of creative ways to use magic, but all the protagonists just want to throw a fireball. One character I read had a magical ability to talk to inanimate objects. And have them talk back. It wasn't a terribly useful ability; inanimate objects aren't very smart (they don't have brains) so they usually just insulted him.

An unfinished story of mine had a geomancer who could talk to stone. The more "raw" it was, the more information she could get but the less usefully it would be organized; a statue with facial features could talk clearly but did not sense as much as an unworked chunk of rock, while the chunk of rock would only speak in monosyllables and not really "understand" any of what it sensed around it.

 

[Valmond]

Fine, we will make an iguana breathe fire.

 

[Elmir_Arch-Ham_of_Omega]

Welp, based on what I've read, I will now write out my ideas. Steal them.

• Desert Tribe that knows water magic. Let's call them Pharazia.
• The abundant water turns their home into an oasis.
• The ensuing increased evaporation makes rains more frequent.
• The rains turn even larger stretches of land into fertile green stretches.
• Deserts are extremely cold at night, leading to formations of ice.
• Ice magic develops.
• The surrounding desert becomes the tribe's natural protection.
• Tribe grows, attracts travelers and merchants, wealth grows.
• Settlement turns to village, then a town, then a city.
• In all phases is not a dusty, sandy place but with dark loam, green grass, tall trees, later on, paved stones and hardy wood from trees that can survive the desert sun, or rather thrive due to the extra solar radiation.
• Ironically agricultural products are highly sought due to the high quality crops i.e. extra meaty desert tomatoes.
• Pharazian timber is highly prized.
• It's basically Ancient Egypt but the Pharaoh can spam the Nile flooding.
• Basically Ancient Egypt because their increased wealth means they can just outsource their military.
• Aristocrats from distant lands export their daughters so their families can have a finger in the royal bloodline.
• Rare minerals which is the real charm in IRL deserts are still a thing, but guess where you need to sojourn? Yup!
• Water magic becomes highly restricted, it's the royal family's meal ticket after all.
• Water mages start getting whisked away to the palmy sands of Pharazi to monopolize it.
• Lots of expats; namely tinfoil sages and wizards, making Pharazia a center of magic research and development.
• Super fast horses! Another major export of Pharazia.
• All nearby natural Oases are occupied or have ludicrous admittance fees. The royal family allows this to funnel tourism and trade.
• King Nefer Pharazia VI builds the "Green Road" which connects his kingdom to the rest of the world. Guess who pays for it.
• "What? Pharazian soldiers raid other tribes to kill suspected water mages? That's fake news!" - Crown Prince Urad

 

[corruption]

Welp, based on what I've read, I will now write out my ideas. Steal them.

• Desert Tribe that knows water magic. Let's call them Pharazia.
• The abundant water turns their home into an oasis.
• The ensuing increased evaporation makes rains more frequent.
• The rains turn even larger stretches of land into fertile green stretches.
• Deserts are extremely cold at night, leading to formations of ice.
• Ice magic develops.
• The surrounding desert becomes the tribe's natural protection.
• Tribe grows, attracts travelers and merchants, wealth grows.
• Settlement turns to village, then a town, then a city.
• In all phases is not a dusty, sandy place but with dark loam, green grass, tall trees, later on, paved stones and hardy wood from trees that can survive the desert sun, or rather thrive due to the extra solar radiation.
• Ironically agricultural products are highly sought due to the high quality crops i.e. extra meaty desert tomatoes.
• Pharazian timber is highly prized.
• It's basically Ancient Egypt but the Pharaoh can spam the Nile flooding.
• Basically Ancient Egypt because their increased wealth means they can just outsource their military.
• Aristocrats from distant lands export their daughters so their families can have a finger in the royal bloodline.
• Rare minerals which is the real charm in IRL deserts are still a thing, but guess where you need to sojourn? Yup!
• Water magic becomes highly restricted, it's the royal family's meal ticket after all.
• Water mages start getting whisked away to the palmy sands of Pharazi to monopolize it.
• Lots of expats; namely tinfoil sages and wizards, making Pharazia a center of magic research and development.
• Super fast horses! Another major export of Pharazia.
• All nearby natural Oases are occupied or have ludicrous admittance fees. The royal family allows this to funnel tourism and trade.
• King Nefer Pharazia VI builds the "Green Road" which connects his kingdom to the rest of the world. Guess who pays for it.
• "What? Pharazian soldiers raid other tribes to kill suspected water mages? That's fake news!" - Crown Prince Urad

The only a few real problems.
First is how loamy the soil is.
The Nile did not just bring water, but also sediment.
Desert sandy is normally not able to provide many nutrients for plants, or retaining water

Second is where the water came from in the first place.
Maybe the water table or the old rare rains being retained for this?
Maybe weather mages working to draw rainclouds there?
The part about evaporation causing more rain is actually very reasonable. That is why outback NSW in Australia is having a drought in the Snowy Mountains stopped being so snowy (run-off down the side away from the sea provided the water for it)

 

[Arkus86]

Fire magic = the clan thrive and survive the cold winter
No fire magic = everyone die by the cold

There's also the other, more "magical" option.
Since they live in the freezing environment, they are better adapted to survive there. They are attuned to the element of ice, it permeates their bodies and bloodlines, letting them survive without reliance on fire and making them better at ice magic, while conversely making them worse at handling heat and using fire magic.