Should the prohibited content rules for Scribblehub be ammended to include Illegal Monetization?

[beast_regards]

Of course, you could always make monetization linking a work by work thing, but as it currently operates on SH, it's done on user profile, not on work pages. Which is why I recommended just disabling it on the profile page, since that would be an easy *IF* statement on the backend.

I deleted my fan-fiction.

Fortunately for me, not only it is discontinued, neither my works are monetized.

It's the sacrifice I could make.

For others, however, it may be a testament to where the Tyranomaster aims at this request - to destroy other writers.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Now I'm wishing I'd paid better attention when I was friends with two IP law specialists. There are times when fan fiction CAN be illegal (criminally) but usually it does fall under Civil jurisdiction.
There are more shades of gray than black and white when using other peoples' IP... ESPECIALLY corporate-owned IP (e.g.: Star Wars, Star Trek, most of the comic book universes), compared to private or partially private (e.g. Harry Potter - IIRC the novel versions of the characters are owned by the author, but the specific screen versions are owned by Time-Warner, or Game of Thrones which is a morass that could end the Neverending Story)

 

[Tyranomaster]

your premise is flawed. Writing fanfics isn't illegal. Nor is asking for money for work done to transform another's work. Technically the base question was flawed in its wording, as there's nothing illegal about any of this. It's all civil law, not criminal. Which means the only issue arises when someone actually complains (where as criminal law is illegal regardless). The only real matter against civil law is when I charge money to gain access to the work. NOT offering a way to give money separate from the work in question. If I write a HP fanfic and charge you $5 to read it? Civil lawsuit. If I write it, post it for free and offer you a way to give me $5 regardless of whether or not you chose to have read it, then that's a separate matter. That's you supporting the author, NOT buying a product. Clear difference under civil law. At least in the US, which is the law-set SH follows.

That said, it's a CIVIL issue if I charge money to read a fanfic, not a criminal one, thus not technically "illegal". But I can't help but feel it was intentionally worded that way. if something is illegal, it's already banned under law, meaning it would be covered under the section of TOS stating "under jurisdiction of all applicable US law" (or however it's worded).

Illegality is a word meaning breaking any law, not just criminal law. It is illegal to break copyright law. You are in violation of a law, thus it is illegal. The penalties are civil, not criminal, but the word is correct.

Other fanfic websites (including AO3) don't allow linking monetization. This isn't some novel idea. Other sites have this rule to avoid legal issues.

 

[Lysander_Works]

At the bare minimum, I'd say this needs greater attention. I say this because I don't want to lose SH, though I'm not too great at understanding the technical aspects of this.

 

[John_Owl]

Illegality is a word meaning breaking any law, not just criminal law. It is illegal to break copyright law. You are in violation of a law, thus it is illegal. The penalties are civil, not criminal, but the word is correct.

Other fanfic websites (including AO3) don't allow linking monetization. This isn't some novel idea. Other sites have this rule to avoid legal issues.

other sites also have other weird rules. SH isn't strictly a fanfic site, unlike AO3 (which only allows 'fannish' content, an ill-defined term that doesn't seem to have a solid definition). and half their works seem to be straight-up illegal-criminal, like loli/shota smut. That's the site you wanna base this one on?

RR doesn't allow 90% of their stories, but they make exceptions for exceptional work, bending or even breaking their own rules. Wattpad is 95% fanfic and does allow monetization. If you wanna compare other sites, I'm happy to engage. But you have to be fair and honest, not cherrypick to suit your needs.

 

[Tyranomaster]

I'll add in that *EVEN* webnovel doesn't allow any sort of monetization linking for fanfictions.

other sites also have other weird rules. SH isn't strictly a fanfic site, unlike AO3 (which only allows 'fannish' content, an ill-defined term that doesn't seem to have a solid definition). and half their works seem to be straight-up illegal-criminal, like loli/shota smut. That's the site you wanna base this one on?

RR doesn't allow 90% of their stories, but they make exceptions for exceptional work, bending or even breaking their own rules. Wattpad is 95% fanfic and does allow monetization. If you wanna compare other sites, I'm happy to engage. But you have to be fair and honest, not cherrypick to suit your needs.

Just because they violate their own rules doesn't mean they haven't set the rule. They don't allow it. So, by your statement, even websites that allow worse criminal behavior won't touch it. If even "bad" examples don't allow it, why should SH? I don't know that this is actually a counter argument.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Nobody will ever open this can of worms, anyway~. It is not worth the trouble and the potential backlash~.

 

[John_Owl]

I'll add in that *EVEN* webnovel doesn't allow any sort of monetization linking for fanfictions.

Just because they violate their own rules doesn't mean they haven't set the rule. They don't allow it. So, by your statement, even websites that allow worse criminal behavior won't touch it. If even "bad" examples don't allow it, why should SH? I don't know that this is actually a counter argument.

because AO3 doesn't allow ANY monetization, even original content. If it's posted there, it's not allowed to be monetized from that site, plain and simple. This is completely separate from whether it's original work or a fanfic.

And I find it funny you haven't yet mentioned the fact that it's not even against civil law to monetize AND to write fanfic as two separate matters. What is stated as against civil law (should the wronged party choose to pursue it) is to charge to read it. That's not the same. If I post it here, it's not behind a paywall. anyone can read, regardless of whether or not they've paid me. that's separate from having a link to a patreon or subscribestar.

and you seem to be conflating the two. it's against civil law to say "You must pay me $x to read this story". It's notably NOT against civil law to say "here's this free story. if you like it, you can tip me here."

edit: unless you're against it because people use fanfics to draw in a crowd and show off their writing style, then that crowd goes on to read their original works and pay them for that. Could explain why you want them to require a separate account - then again, everyone keeping two accounts would also double the load on Tony's server, making it harder for him to keep up with demand, so the site could shut down.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

@Tyranomaster @John_Owl You two take it too serious. It doesn't even matter because nothing will be changed. Don't forget the premise of the thread is to hear opinions of people, not to prove who is right or wrong. If you don't want this thread to get locked, which I think will happen anyway, I would advise you two, or at least one of you to stop this pointless conversation.

 

[beast_regards]

The vast majority of the writers frequenting the sites like the AO3, Wattpadd and even Scribble Hub are amateurs without any serious ambition to monetize their work or to become the professional writers. They do it mostly for fun, for free, in their free time, and even those few who went as far as offering commissions would never earn a substantial amount of money.

It's mostly fun.

A hobby.

It is not even supposed to be good, let alone profitable.

It may be somewhere in the grey area, yes, and the vast majority of those people never thought of legal implication.

Not a threat to corporate monopoly making the millions of dollars.

Yes, some may have dreams, but they never come true.

People like you turned the Royal Road into the toxic cesspit it is right now, regardless if you are affiliated with them or not.

You just looking for the way to destroy other writers, nothing more.

 

[John_Owl]

@Tyranomaster @John_Owl You two take it too serious. It doesn't even matter because nothing will be changed. Don't forget the premise of the thread is to hear opinions of people, not to prove who is right or wrong. If you don't want this thread to get locked, which I think will happen anyway, I would advise you two, or at least one of you to stop this pointless conversation.

my bad. Didn't mean for it to sound heated. I'm bored as I can't work today. My writing programs are updating, so I'm down for the count until tomorrow.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

my bad. Didn't mean for it to sound heated. I'm bored as I can't work today. My writing programs are updating, so I'm down for the count until tomorrow.

Nah, I get it. I contributed to it myself. Just, don't take it too seriously. It really doesn't matter in the context of SH.

 

[Tyranomaster]

my bad. Didn't mean for it to sound heated. I'm bored as I can't work today. My writing programs are updating, so I'm down for the count until tomorrow.

We can agree to disagree on whether tips are allowed, if your only work is fanfiction, the law is pretty clear that you're being paid for that work, even if the payment is optional.

I'm not trying to be heated either, nor am I trying to "kill the site". I'm mostly just concerned that companies like Nintendo would come in guns blazing (as they're known to do). Right now #5 trending is a pokemon fanfic with monetization (chapters ahead), and #1 is Konosuba fan fic making hundreds a month on advance chapters. It's a dangerous game when it's Japanese copyright holders involved.

I'm more than happy to let sleeping dogs lie, but I think we're treading on thin ice with some of these novels on the front page all the time.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

I just calculated it. A case here would surely cost you about around Euro 1k to Euro 3.5k upwards in legal fees alone, with damages to be determined.

Unless you have legal insurance, it is a most effective to burn nerves and money. And I doubt our friends from across the pond charge much less.

 

[Theresaisnotmenhera]

Do people ask the author? I don't know. But let's pretend they did and the author allowed them to monetize their fanfictions. In that case, I think monetization is fine. The problem with this method is, how can you know they aren't lying? Ask for proof? What if they fake it? Ask the author of an original work?

The have explicit permission as far as I am aware concerning only this case. Royalroad doesn't allow Fanfictions to be monetized, so they had to drop the Fanfiction tag after asking for permission from the original author.

 

[wuwen]

Truthfully, I dislike the prevalence of fan work on the main page of SH. I first joined the site in the hopes that it would establish itself as a hub of English original web novels, but the strong presence of fan work has diminished those hopes. To learn that fan writers are monetizing heavily and prominently here has me reconsidering whether I should use this site as a center of my online writer presence. AO3 has specific rules in place to prevent potential lawsuits, and they are affiliated with the Organization for Transformative Works, which has their own legal advocacy branch -- I assume they are more well-versed in the intricacies of copyright law than the average online user.

 

[Valmond]

I think we can all agree.

1. FanFiction is fine, nothing is wrong with it.

2. We don’t want anything to happen to SH.

3. FanFic’s have been a grey area, and under certain circumstances such as transformative, and even then it is left up in the air. That or getting permission, they can potentially monetize.

4. Depending on the laws, this can vary when it comes to this current matter.

5. Monetizing FanFic’s, can potentially cause issues.

Let’s try not to cause trouble for Tony, and do our part to help where we can. None of us wants FanFic’s to be removed, but we also don’t want any other troubles to pop up because of this grey area.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

The have explicit permission as far as I am aware concerning only this case. Royalroad doesn't allow Fanfictions to be monetized, so they had to drop the Fanfiction tag after asking for permission from the original author.

Good to know that at least those authors are not breaking the law and cheat.

Truthfully, I dislike the prevalence of fan work on the main page of SH. I first joined the site in the hopes that it would establish itself as a hub of English original web novels, but the strong presence of fan work has diminished those hopes. To learn that fan writers are monetizing heavily and prominently here has me reconsidering whether I should use this site as a center of my online writer presence. AO3 has specific rules in place to prevent potential lawsuits, and they are affiliated with the Organization for Transformative Works, which has their own legal advocacy branch -- I assume they are more well-versed in the intricacies of copyright law than the average online user.

Unfortunately, it is what it is. You can try RR.

 

[Valmond]

The have explicit permission as far as I am aware concerning only this case. Royalroad doesn't allow Fanfictions to be monetized, so they had to drop the Fanfiction tag after asking for permission from the original author.

Was that a while ago? Since RR does have sorting by Fan Fiction.

Truthfully, I dislike the prevalence of fan work on the main page of SH. I first joined the site in the hopes that it would establish itself as a hub of English original web novels, but the strong presence of fan work has diminished those hopes. To learn that fan writers are monetizing heavily and prominently here has me reconsidering whether I should use this site as a center of my online writer presence. AO3 has specific rules in place to prevent potential lawsuits, and they are affiliated with the Organization for Transformative Works, which has their own legal advocacy branch -- I assume they are more well-versed in the intricacies of copyright law than the average online user.

Well, it certainly established itself as a ‘hub’. Ain’t sure if it is the preferred hub you’re looking for.

 

[Theresaisnotmenhera]

Was that a while ago? Since RR does have sorting by Fan Fiction.

"Note about lack of fanfiction tag: This story originally DID have the fanfiction tag, but I recieved RavensDagger's permission to take donations. The RR admin wasn't able to open donations without removing the tag. The lack of tag is intentional.


If you haven't read the original story read it here: Stray Cat Strut"

Teddy Bears on Brigade [A SCS Fanfiction]