Should the prohibited content rules for Scribblehub be ammended to include Illegal Monetization?

[RepresentingWrath]

It really depends. US works are going to be fair use in most cases (though it would have to be determined by a judge). JP doesn't have fair use, so JP companies can send takedowns for whatever they want and generally be in the legal right. Canada usually has similar laws to the US on this sort of thing. The question becomes, "If you don't comply with a foreign lawsuit, what happens?" Most times, publishers force compliance. If Tony is made aware of a JP DMCA, then he takes down the content to avoid legal trouble. Getting the DMCA is the first step, and compliance is usually enough for them to back off. In rare cases it proceeds if the company thinks there was damages as well, which, with the rampant amount going on, they might have a good legal case for, which is my concern. It's a legal mire, and it's gotten to a pretty bad point.

By providing a simple alert to fanfiction stories that are monetized that they cannot be monetized anymore, Tony essentially washes his hands of the problem.

I stand corrected.

 

[beast_regards]

Yes, it is.

It's the case-by-case scenario as decided by the court.

Legal issues with fan fiction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You could win the case, but I don't count on some insignificant person having the money for a lawsuit for the company with essentially infinite money...

The Scribble Hub could take steps to take damage, sure, it's up to them ....

I am not site owner, and I couldn't decide on it.

I just consider it laughable that someone representing the Royal Road ,which considers fairness the utterly alien term, is suggesting it.

 

[Tyranomaster]

@beast_regards for what it's worth, I just went and checked RR policies, and they do prevent linking of any monetization when you're tagged with fanfiction.

 

[Deleted member 192215]

It really depends. US works are going to be fair use in most cases (though it would have to be determined by a judge). JP doesn't have fair use, so JP companies can send takedowns for whatever they want and generally be in the legal right. Canada usually has similar laws to the US on this sort of thing. The question becomes, "If you don't comply with a foreign lawsuit, what happens?" Most times, publishers force compliance. If Tony is made aware of a JP DMCA, then he takes down the content to avoid legal trouble. Getting the DMCA is the first step, and compliance is usually enough for them to back off. In rare cases it proceeds if the company thinks there was damages as well, which, with the rampant amount going on, they might have a good legal case for, which is my concern. It's a legal mire, and it's gotten to a pretty bad point.

Told ya. If *Redacted* don't take action now. This entire site would be down, and they would go to court. Especially for FF that related to Nintendo, we're basically f*cked.

For those who didn't know pay attention. It's about the Pokemon X Pal World, and how they will abuse the JP Copyright laws and play dirty.

 

[Tyranomaster]

Told ya. If *redacted* don't take action now. This entire site would be down, and they would go to court. Especially for FF that related to Nintendo, we're basically f*cked.

For those who didn't know pay attention. It's about the Pokemon X Pal World, and how they will abuse the JP Copyright laws and play dirty.

Tony was already @'d and it's not an emergency. It's just now at attention. No need to @ him again.

 

[beast_regards]

As for the Scribble Hub terms and it does mention this...

Spoiler

...which already cover any instances in which the IP owner could take action against any and all works on the grounds of Intellectual Property...

Spoiler

... which says...

Tony, as the site owner and moderator, is not liable for the content we submit.

And a service is, in fact, governed by the US law....

It's a little of irony as the OP, representing the site hiding behind the laws of the other country - which is an active warzone - making it in fact impossible to legally approach, besides to be operating under the copyright law from 1911 signed by the King George V ...

Yeah. Very upstanding.

It is indeed true that the Royal Road doesn't allow the monetization of fan-fiction, but they don't allow most stories, even the originals, present there.

It's actually fishy that the representant of the Royal Road is calling for the rule change the SH doesn't need (as it is covered in the points in my screenshots)

You know how well they operate. Just ask his pal, MJ...

For those who didn't know pay attention. It's about the Pokemon X Pal World, and how they will abuse the JP Copyright laws, and play dirty.

No, it's patent law, and it is even more insane.

The Palworld danced around the copyright quite well..

So Nintendo patented the mechanic where you "target the object on character on the field" ...

Object. Any object. On any character.

 

[Valmond]

Okay, quick question. How the hell does everything somehow get directed back to Nintendo?

 

[beast_regards]

Okay, quick question. How the hell does everything somehow get directed back to Nintendo?

That's a very good question, actually.

 

[John_Owl]

this is a murky subject, as the laws can vary widely. I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, as a creator, I've studied copyright in-depth. And what I've found is that "transformative" works include fanfics. We all know this. Unless the fanfic is 100% a rip from page-to-page or screen-to-page (plagiarism), it's considered transformative. This means the creator did some creative work OTHER than simply copy/paste (or typing, as in the case of screen-to-page).

THAT work can be monetized legally, but how they do it is specifically restricted. I can't write a Harry Potter fanfic and publish it traditionally. That said, I can post it online free (such as here on scribblehub) with a link to a subscribestar page saying "If you like this, come give me money". the work itself is free. Their paying me not for the copyrighted material, but for the work of transformation I did.

So, let me ask you this: What difference would it make? Would we ban anyone that asks for money for the work they put into transforming it from OC to fanfic (if the work itself is free)? or would we ban anyone that's already illegal under the law (such as people requiring payment to read their fanfic, which is already illegal and not allowed under the ruleset, since the rules prohibit strictly paid content)?

 

[Tyranomaster]

As for the Scribble Hub terms and it does mention this...

Spoiler

View attachment 36167

...which already cover any instances in which the IP owner could take action against any and all works on the grounds of Intellectual Property...

Spoiler

View attachment 36168

... which says...

Tony, as the site owner and moderator, is not liable for the content we submit.

And a service is, in fact, governed by the US law....

It's a little of irony as the OP, representing the site hiding behind the laws of the other country - which is an active warzone - making it in fact impossible to legally approach, besides to be operating under the copyright law from 1911 signed by the King George V ...

Yeah. Very upstanding.

It is indeed true that the Royal Road doesn't allow the monetization of fan-fiction, but they don't allow most stories, even the originals, present there.

It's actually fishy that the representant of the Royal Road is calling for the rule change the SH doesn't need (as it is covered in the points in my screenshots)

You know how well they operate. Just ask his pal, MJ...

I am not, nor have I ever been, a representive of Royalroad, nor have I ever set foot in Israel. I was born in Iowa and live in Missouri. I publish here and on RR, and I don't use RR forums. I have vested interest in both and prefer SH's community and would like for it to remain free of issues. I've said it before, but I do not appreciate being mischaracterized like this, and this is your warning that I'm considering future mischaracterizations as harassment insofar as they are factually false. Call me a bad writter or a shill, that's opinion and fine. Calling me an Israeli citizen or a RR employee is factually false and not fine.

I am not offering legal advice, just concern. That being said, I believe that "good will" goes a long way in court. Actively appearing hostile to the law generally makes things complicated. It's a stance anyone can choose to take at any point and they're free to do so. Sometimes it's right to be adversarial. I'm just bringing attention to a problem that seems to be rampant.

 

[John_Owl]

Okay, quick question. How the hell does everything somehow get directed back to Nintendo?

because they're copyright-happy. They file lawsuits against any copyright-safe, transformative works they don't like. If I wrote a mario/peach smut, I'd likely see a nintendo lawsuit in the mail, despite being legal in my country. it's civil lawsuits, so they can file it and, being poor, I wouldn't be able to fight. Meaning I lose by default.

 

[beast_regards]

I've said it before, but I do not appreciate being mischaracterized like this, and this is your warning that I'm considering future mischaracterizations as harassment insofar as they are factually false.

Dully noted. It raises a few questions, but nevermind...

I thus agree I wouldn't harass you in any way the Royal Road doesn't approve of.

*sign*

Look what you have done... I am already two Cats in debt.

 

[Tyranomaster]

this is a murky subject, as the laws can vary widely. I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, as a creator, I've studied copyright in-depth. And what I've found is that "transformative" works include fanfics. We all know this. Unless the fanfic is 100% a rip from page-to-page or screen-to-page (plagiarism), it's considered transformative. This means the creator did some creative work OTHER than simply copy/paste (or typing, as in the case of screen-to-page).

THAT work can be monetized legally, but how they do it is specifically restricted. I can't write a Harry Potter fanfic and publish it traditionally. That said, I can post it online free (such as here on scribblehub) with a link to a subscribestar page saying "If you like this, come give me money". the work itself is free. Their paying me not for the copyrighted material, but for the work of transformation I did.

So, let me ask you this: What difference would it make? Would we ban anyone that asks for money for the work they put into transforming it from OC to fanfic (if the work itself is free)? or would we ban anyone that's already illegal under the law (such as people requiring payment to read their fanfic, which is already illegal and not allowed under the ruleset, since the rules prohibit strictly paid content)?

Transformative works that are considered fanfiction are generally not allowed to be monetized. Only sufficiently transformative works are allowed, and few works meet that high barrier, usually that the work has "social value". Further, it's on a case by case basis. Most authors do not allow monetized fanfiction. Just because it runs rampant everywhere doesn't mean the law is any different.

As an example, assault and battery is criminally illegal (as opposed to civilly, which copyright falls under). People get into fights where neither press charges or will comply with officers, so no one gets in trouble. It was still criminally illegal to participate in assault and battery.

Copyright is difficult because it's murky, but having clear policies in line with the law (even if laxly enforced) usually shows enough good will for a judge to waive liability.

I'd imagine that's why RR implemented the rule. Pre or post lawsuit I don't know.

 

[John_Owl]

Personally, I think that, unless the IP owner has given express permission to use their IP for other creative works, then these stories should be taken down. Despite many people's beliefs on the matter, most authors don't have a personal lawyer combing through all possible uses of their work to file DMCA requests. In most cases, it's only when something gets large enough does it come to the attention of companies and gets a DMCA request. I myself do weekly searches to make sure my story isn't being used without permission, and have filed DMCA requests to websites a handful of times.

In practice, allowing this content hurts readers and authors too. Any fanfic that is monetized and popular will end up unfinished. If it's low enough quality, it won't get taken down, but good ones will. The authors themselves are also opening themselves up to a legal mire too. Further, young authors may not be aware that monetization of fanfictions is illegal. They are just writing for fun, and then it gets popular. After it gets popular, they simply open up a patreon or other monetization site because it's "what everyone does/recommends".

you're missing an important point of copyright law here. Transformative works under copyright law are allowed, legally speaking, to be monetized, depending on how it's done. You're not allowed to write a harry potter fanfic and publish it traditionally as original. But you are allowed to use the characters in an all-original fanfic (as weird as that sounds, imagine a story where Harry Potter were put into slytherin and turned evil, forcing Voldie to become the good guy). THAT you would be allowed to link to a patreon and say "I put a lot of work into this, so if you like it, please pay me". As long as the WORK ITSELF is free, it's technically legal.

My personal proposal would be to allow fanfics, but not allow monetization of them. If you are an author on SH, and have a story tagged with any fanfic tag (or related tag like *Naruto*), then the option to link any monetization should be disabled, and a warning should be displayed when adding the tag informing the author of the law.

I do think this is something that @Tony should consider as well, but even if he wants to allow it (which is fine btw), I am interested in what the community thinks on the matter.

So your suggestion here is that if I write even one single harry potter fanfic, I can't monetize ANY of my other works? Sounds like a fast way to kill a site.

 

[Clo]

Okay, quick question. How the hell does everything somehow get directed back to Nintendo?

Because they are notoriously protective of their IPs. Random Chinatown stores in Montreal, Canada frequently has Nintendo people coming in and taking down any unofficial Nintendo stuff: wall scrolls, posters, music, plushies, figurines.

They absolutely will step in, even if it's small potato.

Because if they don't step in quickly, it escalates and people push further next time.

 

[beast_regards]

So your suggestion here is that if I write even one single harry potter fanfic, I can't monetize ANY of my other works? Sounds like a fast way to kill a site.

And how you see why it is being proposed...

 

[Valmond]

Because they are notoriously protective of their IPs. Random Chinatown stores in Montreal, Canada frequently has Nintendo people coming in and taking down any unofficial Nintendo stuff: wall scrolls, posters, music, plushies, figurines.

They absolutely will step in, even if it's small potato.

Because if they don't step in quickly, it escalates snd people push further next time.

On the topic of Nintendo. I’ve heard how they struck at people they gave their permission to. In all actuality, best not to even try anything with them.

Also, solution to FanFic, it is best to just do that on a separate account. That way you will have no issues monetizing your original stuff. It saves getting a headache.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

The fan-fiction is, in itself, already illegal, i.e. violation of the copyright law, regardless if it is monetized or not.

Strictly speaking this is not true, at least from my limited understanding of the laws - fan fiction lies in a gray area of the law unless the original IP owner either sees it as a challenge to their property OR it starts making money without giving a cut back to the original IP holder.

Now it is more likely to get the author in trouble if they copy entire sections of the source material with few or no alterations than it is if they just set a story in the universe of another creator and have "official" characters get involved. But even then, it is still a gray area. Especially since SOME IPs are corporate-owned, some belong entirely to the creator, and some have some weird hybrid of ownership, further complicating issues (for one of the most convoluted IPs, check out Star Trek - some of the CHARACTERS and at least one ship belong to specific authors, but the setting, command crews, recognized major ship names and profiles, and a few minor other characters are corporate-owned; ST has always had a thriving fan fiction community, and some of the fans even wound up writing stuff that eventually became canon).

 

[Tyranomaster]

So your suggestion here is that if I write even one single harry potter fanfic, I can't monetize ANY of my other works? Sounds like a fast way to kill a site.

Also, solution to FanFic, it is best to just do that on a separate account. That way you will have no issues monetizing your original stuff. It saves getting a headache.

This is my intended solution. Keep your accounts separate. This is common business sense. Hypothetically, lets say I operated two businesses, a mechanic's shop a carpet cleaning service and I have them under one legal entity. If I'm doing things in the mechanics shop that I shouldn't, but the carpet cleaning service is clean, they'd still both go under in a lawsuit. If they're separate LLCs, then the carpet service might remain and I could continue doing work there.

Separate entities means the money is traceable. Likewise, if you start to link one patreon for original works, but operate under the same name as your popular fanfiction that isn't on the patreon, it'd be up to a court to determine how much of that money might actually belong to the fanfiction. In the US you yourself generally operate as a singular LLC (Limitted liability corporation), even if you haven't filed to operate as one, as long as you're participating in business practices under your name. If you use multiple pen names, that doesn't matter, it's all one LLC, and can be sued for damages. If you were to actively create an LLC for your completely above the board writing, and have all funds go through it, and pay yourself as an employee, then your personal fanfiction writing would be legally distinct and harder to convince a court of any cross-contamination (though not impossible depending on how you're operating).

And how you see why it is being proposed...

Of course, you could always make monetization linking a work by work thing, but as it currently operates on SH, it's done on user profile, not on work pages. Which is why I recommended just disabling it on the profile page, since that would be an easy *IF* statement on the backend.

 

[John_Owl]

This is my intended solution. Keep your accounts separate. This is common business sense. Hypothetically, lets say I operated two businesses, a mechanic's shop a carpet cleaning service and I have them under one legal entity. If I'm doing things in the mechanics shop that I shouldn't, but the carpet cleaning service is clean, they'd still both go under in a lawsuit. If they're separate LLCs, then the carpet service might remain and I could continue doing work there.

your premise is flawed. Writing fanfics isn't illegal. Nor is asking for money for work done to transform another's work. Technically the base question was flawed in its wording, as there's nothing illegal about any of this. It's all civil law, not criminal. Which means the only issue arises when someone actually complains (where as criminal law is illegal regardless). The only real matter against civil law is when I charge money to gain access to the work. NOT offering a way to give money separate from the work in question. If I write a HP fanfic and charge you $5 to read it? Civil lawsuit. If I write it, post it for free and offer you a way to give me $5 regardless of whether or not you chose to have read it, then that's a separate matter. That's you supporting the author, NOT buying a product. Clear difference under civil law. At least in the US, which is the law-set SH follows.

That said, it's a CIVIL issue if I charge money to read a fanfic, not a criminal one, thus not technically "illegal". But I can't help but feel it was intentionally worded that way. if something is illegal, it's already banned under law, meaning it would be covered under the section of TOS stating "under jurisdiction of all applicable US law" (or however it's worded).