Sell/Unsell me on Genderbender Stories

[CookieCrumble]

This is really interesting. I've certainly heard of the phenomenon you describe, of male players in MMO's hitting on female avatars regardless of the actual player's gender (or caring to learn it, just assuming).

But why not just write a female character who has to deal with those issues? That's the part I don't get. Unless it is some sort of 'life-lesson' for a horn-dog to gain empathy over how he's always treated women badly, I don't see how making the 'real' person be a man makes telling the stories of sexism any better? Like, it seems with your experience and empathy you could write a really telling story of the kind of crap that women have to go through daily. Is it that there is a concern that a male reader might avoid a story with a female MC?

Because it's a contrast. Fall from grace kind of stuff. Not that female experiencing female sexism is bad mind you. But there are lot of story to tell from someone who used to have privilege suddenly stripped from that privilege. Especially if that are privilege they don't even realize they have.

For example some of suburban whites always thought black overplay the race card. Now while exploring the black person reincarnated and having similarly discriminated in the way of its previous life is interesting on its own. There are lots to say in finding yourselves suddenly placed as the target of your echo-chamber who keep telling you that police don't do racial profiling. It's jarring.

Male reader avoiding female MC? Unfortunately thats a fact. How do I know? Because webnovel (qidian) spout it with straight face on their writer academy video. I remember screaming, sobbing, when they dissect reader psychology, how they tell you what sell with scalpel precision. How 90% of male read male power fantasy and vice versa.

Now, IMHO exploring the intrigue of living as another gender shouldn't be used as readership bait.

But you know, as Sven from QC said:

My artistic integrity wears a gimp suit and lives in a box.

So you know. Grain of salt and all that.

 

[AryaX]

Both Isekai and Gender Bender appeal to me for much the same reason I think... Wish fulfillment and escapism in a nice relatable package...

I want to read about different interesting lives of consequence, and while I can read stories set in some fantasy world and written from some native farm hands point of view, its hard to get into their heads because I lack the common sense knowledge they have, by virtue of having been born and grown up in that world, while they in turn lack all the modern world knowledge I have... The knowledge based on which I judge what I read... Isekai injects a mind more closely resembling my own into that new and exciting world and as such its easier to imagine my self in their shoes...

And Gender Bender is obviously the same... While I can and do read stories written from the point of view of people who have been of the opposite gender since birth, again I don't know what they take for granted and they don't know what I do, and as such its harder to get into their heads...

So... Mix em together... What could be better? More different and interesting and yet easily relatable at the same time?

Of course, I might have some trans leanings which might skew my point of view a bit...

 

[BenJepheneT]

I don't read them, but my guess is it's about uncovering the mysteries of higher dimensions or something.

View attachment 6359

These people are either at their absolute lows or right at the peak of their careers.

 

[Jemini]

Both Isekai and Gender Bender appeal to me for much the same reason I think... Wish fulfillment and escapism in a nice relatable package...

I want to read about different interesting lives of consequence, and while I can read stories set in some fantasy world and written from some native farm hands point of view, its hard to get into their heads because I lack the common sense knowledge they have, by virtue of having been born and grown up in that world, while they in turn lack all the modern world knowledge I have... The knowledge based on which I judge what I read... Isekai injects a mind more closely resembling my own into that new and exciting world and as such its easier to imagine my self in their shoes...

And Gender Bender is obviously the same... While I can and do read stories written from the point of view of people who have been of the opposite gender since birth, again I don't know what they take for granted and they don't know what I do, and as such its harder to get into their heads...

So... Mix em together... What could be better? More different and interesting and yet easily relatable at the same time?

Of course, I might have some trans leanings which might skew my point of view a bit...

Here's a way to tell whether you have "transgender leanings," or if you are just someone with that "genderbending fetish" or whatever it is that I mentioned in my post.

Do you actually want to be the other gender permanently? Or do you wish you were Ranma from Ranma 1/2? (Having the ability to, fulfilling a certain condition, transition between being male and female several times in a single day.)

That's the trick. Twitter and Tumbler talk about people being gender fluid and things like that, but that's just people wanting to be special. Real transgender people genuinely feel they are in the wrong body and have a need to be the other gender permanently. They are not likely to be happy with that "Ranma 1/2" scenario.

 

[sereminar]

That's the trick. Twitter and Tumbler talk about people being gender fluid and things like that, but that's just people wanting to be special. Real transgender people genuinely feel they are in the wrong body and have a need to be the other gender permanently. They are not likely to be happy with that "Ranma 1/2" scenario.

Let's not invalidate other people's genders yeah? I'm non-binary and let me tell you, it's not because I like being constantly misgendered and harassed on the streets or at work. Gender dysphoria isn't required for being trans. There's thousands of years of history of trans people, and just as many years of people who wouldn't identify as either male or female. Plus your post wasn't even on topic

want to read about different interesting lives of consequence, and while I can read stories set in some fantasy world and written from some native farm hands point of view,

I absolutely love reading from a bunch of different perspectives. Like learning about different jobs, or skills, or cultures out societies though fiction is so cool! And there are so many different experience people can have regarding gender and presentation and how that impacts their life in tons of different ways.

 

[Jemini]

Let's not invalidate other people's genders yeah? I'm non-binary and let me tell you, it's not because I like being constantly misgendered and harassed on the streets or at work. Gender dysphoria isn't required for being trans. There's thousands of years of history of trans people, and just as many years of people who wouldn't identify as either male or female. Plus your post wasn't even on topic

The transgender debate is a very confused and messy topic. Not at all as unified as the face and spokes people for the topic would like to make it out to be either. In order to avoid saying anything harsh, I think I will allow people to fill in the gaps in terms of what's unsaid form there. I have already made my thoughts on the topic known.

I also have something in my personality that could have me considered "non-binary" if I framed it in the right way, but I would NEVER equate myself in the same realm as people suffering from gender dysphoria. They are two completely different things. I personally don't place myself as having an LGBT identity for my certain-perspective non-binary mind set, and I would consider it highly disrespectful of me to attempt to do so, speaking for myself.

EDIT: (Let's just say there's a reason why I never tell my gender and will not argue with any pronouns for either gender attributed to me.)

Considering how this topic boarders on the transgender topic, I feel it was a little inevitable the topic would come up. You are right though, my comment did go off into the weeds a little. Was trying to be helpful to someone who sounded like they were trying to find themselves and work through their identity. I suppose some of my thoughts on a sensitive topic came out as a result.

 

[AryaX]

As far as my point was concerned... I am not sure if it really matters if My "trans leanings" are due to transgenderism or if its just a fetish...

To me Gender Bender is strongly appealing genre and I see it as Wish fulfillment... I might be wrong, but I would imagine that for most people...
People who don't have any "trans leanings", fetish or otherwise, it wouldn't have anywhere near the kind of appeal as it has to me...

As for whether I think I am "genuinely trans" or if its just a fetish for me... I don't really see any meaningful difference in my case, as I have never seen any appeal in transitioning... I've read plenty on the subject and see plenty of similarity in experiences but also some differences... I have gone through many phases, wishing for different things, and wishing for an ability to change back and forth like Ranma? was certainly one of em... Not that much nowadays though...

I certainly fantasize about being "special"... And getting Isekai'ed and living a life of "consequence" in a magical world, as something other than boring normie human... Succubi are nice option... (The Hentai version mind you... Not the horrible pure evil nightmares from folklore/religion)

 

[TheMangaGod]

As far as my point was concerned... I am not sure if it really matters if My "trans leanings" are due to transgenderism or if its just a fetish...

To me Gender Bender is strongly appealing genre and I see it as Wish fulfillment... I might be wrong, but I would imagine that for most people...
People who don't have any "trans leanings", fetish or otherwise, it wouldn't have anywhere near the kind of appeal as it has to me...

As for whether I think I am "genuinely trans" or if its just a fetish for me... I don't really see any meaningful difference in my case, as I have never seen any appeal in transitioning... I've read plenty on the subject and see plenty of similarity in experiences but also some differences... I have gone through many phases, wishing for different things, and wishing for an ability to change back and forth like Ranma? was certainly one of em... Not that much nowadays though...

I certainly fantasize about being "special"... And getting Isekai'ed and living a life of "consequence" in a magical world, as something other than boring normie human... Succubi are nice option... (The Hentai version mind you... Not the horrible pure evil nightmares from folklore/religion)

Too few people actually go the lewd route when it comes to Succubi, same with Vampire's. They somehow make both completely abstain from what makes them unique, kind of a waste in my opinion. Even in my own novel with a Lamia main character I literally had readers asking if my MC would get legs at some point. Like seriously?!? Why the hell would I write a Lamia MC and give her legs?!? If I did that what's the point of writing her that way, may as well have started with a generic elf or human isekai in that case.

 

[TheMangaGod]

I like Gender Bender stories and I like Monster Girl stories. There weren't enough of both at the same time so I fixed that. And by Monster Girls I don't mean Elves, Vampires or Succubi cause there are a lot of those. I mean Lamia's, Fairies, Arachne, Centaurs, Harpies and other things like that. Hell I might even do a Cyclops Giantess novel eventually. Now that I think of it that would be interesting... Seeing how the MC deals with their size difference would be cool.

 

[ohko]

I don't really think of genderbender as a genre to "sell" (or "unsell") in the sense that I tend to believe that it's something that you either like or you don't. There's no need to force yourself into liking it (if you don't already), and I don't think it's really necessary to try to convince other people to like it.

Half of genderbender on this site falls into the LGBT category, and I don't really expect mainstream people to have a strong interest in LGBT things unless it's relevant to you (or if you have a personal interest in the subject). The other half of genderbender works are probably fetishistic, and in terms of fetishes, people either have them or they don't. A lot of the non-LGBT genderbender is also comedic, in the sense that some people find it funny to swap genders in a lighthearted sense.

Personally, I'm trans/nonbinary (and there are a lot of trans-spectrum readers/writers here), and this community is relatively vocal/supportive. We write things that we can relate to, and in some circumstances use writing as a medium to express ourselves.

I also have something in my personality that could have me considered "non-binary" if I framed it in the right way, but I would NEVER equate myself in the same realm as people suffering from gender dysphoria. They are two completely different things. I personally don't place myself as having an LGBT identity for my certain-perspective non-binary mind set, and I would consider it highly disrespectful of me to attempt to do so, speaking for myself.

Just a small comment that many nonbinary people (in fact, the majority of those that I personally know) do in fact experience gender dysphoria. The boundary between the labels often aren't so clear cut, and many trans-questioning people pass through a phase where they try thinking of them themselves as nonbinary too.

To use myself as an example, I've had gender dysphoria and seriously considered transitioning for many years. However, for various reasons, I never went through with it (I guess you could say I never had the courage), but I try to salvage my mental health situation using any method that I possibly can.

Over the years, I've tried using a number of different labels to describe myself, but ultimately it's really hard to find the right word.

Usually, I just say ohko is ohko.

Sometimes, I have pretty bad gender dysphoria.

And there are a lot of people like me as well.

 

[Jemini]

Just a small comment that many nonbinary people (in fact, the majority of those that I personally know) do in fact experience gender dysphoria. The boundary between the labels often aren't so clear cut, and many trans-questioning people pass through a phase where they try thinking of them themselves as nonbinary too.

To use myself as an example, I've had gender dysphoria and seriously considered transitioning for many years. However, for various reasons, I never went through with it (I guess you could say I never had the courage), but I try to salvage my mental health situation using any method that I possibly can.

Over the years, I've tried using a number of different labels to describe myself, but ultimately it's really hard to find the right word.

Usually, I just say ohko is ohko.

Sometimes, I have pretty bad gender dysphoria.

And there are a lot of people like me as well.

Well, if you have experienced gender dysphoria then you are properly not in the group I was directing my comments against. People who do not experience gender dysphoria but still try to claim LGBT status in my opinion do harm to the movement. Thus, I try to discourage it. That was the purpose behind my earlier comment. If you think I communicated inappropriately though, then I am willing to hear it out from someone who considers themselves non-binary and also experiences dysphoria.

Although, from what you have explained it sounds more like you might be properly transgender and just went through a phase where you called yourself non-binary as you were coming to terms with the idea. If that's the case, you can consider my earlier somewhat harsh comment as perhaps a somewhat rough way to demand people get off the fence. Perhaps a little insensitive, but that was the intention behind it.

 

[AryaX]

I like Gender Bender stories and I like Monster Girl stories. There weren't enough of both at the same time so I fixed that. And by Monster Girls I don't mean Elves, Vampires or Succubi cause there are a lot of those. I mean Lamia's, Fairies, Arachne, Centaurs, Harpies and other things like that. Hell I might even do a Cyclops Giantess novel eventually. Now that I think of it that would be interesting... Seeing how the MC deals with their size difference would be cool.

While I like the idea behind some of the "not quite humanoid" Monster Girls, such as Lamia, Arachne and Harpies... Not really Centaurs for some reason though... but anyway... They don't really work too well for me as the main point of view characters, as it kind of gets in the way of the Wish fulfillment and escapism... (due to my own personal set of likes, dislikes, fetishes, etc...)

I like to inject my self in the characters and imagine what I would be doing in their place, and the idea that I would get isekai'ed and become a cute girl like I always wanted, and I finally get to try out all the things I have always dreamed about doing and STOOOOP! Nope! I actually don't! Because fate saw fit to screw me over once more, by giving me only some of what I wanted, while depriving some of the necessary others, without which I can't actually do what I always wanted...

I am an Atheist and I can sort of deal with and accept that the world is a shitty place, and the fact that I got dealt a rather bad set of cards just is what it is... There is nothing to get mad about, as there is nobody to blame... But... If I got Isekai'ed and gender bent, etc... Showing rather clearly that there is some will or higher power at work... The fact that I still got screwed over... I can only imagine that it would be Absolutely Fucking Maddening!

Now... Maybe one could make an interesting story out of that... But it just isn't really what *I* would want to read... I would much rather read a story where someone gets pretty much Everything I ever wanted and got away from all the problems that I have had to deal with... And then, the necessary conflict in the story comes from some entirely new set of problems, things I have never had to deal with...

--

PS... I have always been an Atheist as far as I can remember... so... I wonder... If there are any here who do believe in God and who are also trans and/or wish they were of the opposite gender... How does your belief in God, and the fact that you had to deal with what you had to deal with fit together in your head??

 

[AryaX]

Too few people actually go the lewd route when it comes to Succubi, same with Vampire's. They somehow make both completely abstain from what makes them unique, kind of a waste in my opinion...

A vampire perhaps may not "necessarily" need to be all that lewd As its the red juice they're after...

Succubi on the other hand... Yeah... Sort of... I do tend to wish Succubus characters in the stories I've read acted the part a bit more... A Lot more in some cases... But at the same time, virtually every single time some story have a sex scene, no matter what the story is about, I pretty much always end up feeling like... " I wish this story would continue already!! "

So... Writing an Interesting story of Succubi actually being Succubi, seems like it might be a bit tricky...

 

[ohko]

Well, if you have experienced gender dysphoria then you are properly not in the group I was directing my comments against. People who do not experience gender dysphoria but still try to claim LGBT status in my opinion do harm to the movement. Thus, I try to discourage it. That was the purpose behind my earlier comment. If you think I communicated inappropriately though, then I am willing to hear it out from someone who considers themselves non-binary and also experiences dysphoria.

Hmm, my personally feelings about the matter is that attacking "tumblr genders" does a lot of damage to nonbinary people in general. For instance, things like "stargender" are presented as arguments by people who try to claim that nonbinary genders are ridiculous, but to me they're sort of strawmen arguments because even though I've been part of many nonbinary communities, I've never encountered a single person who identifies as "stargender".

Many nonbinary people already struggle to be taken seriously, and there's this common assumption that people say that they're nonbinary for attention or for popularity...

...but in reality, that's further from the truth. At least in my experience, an overwhelming majority of nonbinary people are struggling with their own mental health issues, and to some extent its hurtful to dismiss them as attention-seeking brats (which happens a lot). It's actually very depressing. I know one person IRL who openly presents as nonbinary (and insists on they/them pronouns), and they get a lot of scornful looks. However, their mental health situation is really really bad, and I'm really worried for them.

I just think it's disgusting that some people can laugh at people who are right on the edge of killing themselves.

Although, from what you have explained it sounds more like you might be properly transgender and just went through a phase where you called yourself non-binary as you were coming to terms with the idea. If that's the case, you can consider my earlier somewhat harsh comment as perhaps a somewhat rough way to demand people get off the fence. Perhaps a little insensitive, but that was the intention behind it.

I don't really consider my situation to be a phase.

There are a lot of people with gender dysphoria in the world.

Some people choose to transition, and some people choose not to (for various reasons).

In my case, I felt like transitioning was only likely to make my situation more stressful, and I didn't think it was right for me, especially since my anxiety is so bad. I'm not sure I would be happier living as a girl. As I currently live (with a low profile), I'm content being invisible and not noticed by anyone. I don't want to deal with any amount of attention or spotlight, whether that's from my coworkers, family, etc. I really do think that people who transition are very brave.

I think it was almost 5-6 years since I originally considered transitioning (and decided against it). Since then, I've mostly been living in various ways trying to manage my own situation. For me, at the very least I'm not suicidal, and I'm just trying to live my own way.

 

[CL]

I believe the GB genre suffers from a type of tunnel vision. That is why we have people here and there (not everywhere) claiming "you either like it or not" on its selling/unselling point.

 

[TheMangaGod]

A vampire perhaps may not "necessarily" need to be all that lewd As its the red juice they're after...

Succubi on the other hand... Yeah... Sort of... I do tend to wish Succubus characters in the stories I've read acted the part a bit more... A Lot more in some cases... But at the same time, virtually every single time some story have a sex scene, no matter what the story is about, I pretty much always end up feeling like... " I wish this story would continue already!! "

So... Writing an Interesting story of Succubi actually being Succubi, seems like it might be a bit tricky...

They don't necessarily NEED to write a fluff scene, they could go the "fade to black" route and start up again afterwards but for a succubus that seems... strange.

 

[TheMangaGod]

While I like the idea behind some of the "not quite humanoid" Monster Girls, such as Lamia, Arachne and Harpies... Not really Centaurs for some reason though... but anyway... They don't really work too well for me as the main point of view characters, as it kind of gets in the way of the Wish fulfillment and escapism... (due to my own personal set of likes, dislikes, fetishes, etc...)

I like to inject my self in the characters and imagine what I would be doing in their place, and the idea that I would get isekai'ed and become a cute girl like I always wanted, and I finally get to try out all the things I have always dreamed about doing and STOOOOP! Nope! I actually don't! Because fate saw fit to screw me over once more, by giving me only some of what I wanted, while depriving some of the necessary others, without which I can't actually do what I always wanted...

I am an Atheist and I can sort of deal with and accept that the world is a shitty place, and the fact that I got dealt a rather bad set of cards just is what it is... There is nothing to get mad about, as there is nobody to blame... But... If I got Isekai'ed and gender bent, etc... Showing rather clearly that there is some will or higher power at work... The fact that I still got screwed over... I can only imagine that it would be Absolutely Fucking Maddening!

Now... Maybe one could make an interesting story out of that... But it just isn't really what *I* would want to read... I would much rather read a story where someone gets pretty much Everything I ever wanted and got away from all the problems that I have had to deal with... And then, the necessary conflict in the story comes from some entirely new set of problems, things I have never had to deal with...

--

PS... I have always been an Atheist as far as I can remember... so... I wonder... If there are any here who do believe in God and who are also trans and/or wish they were of the opposite gender... How does your belief in God, and the fact that you had to deal with what you had to deal with fit together in your head??

Not sure how being a monster girl would be a punishment but to each their own. Personally I'd love to be a lamia or arachne. Probably not a harpy though, no hands, but otherwise I'd love it. As for the god thing... I know there are people exactly like that. Not sure how they reconcile their beliefs though as I'm agnostic.

 

[Jemini]

PS... I have always been an Atheist as far as I can remember... so... I wonder... If there are any here who do believe in God and who are also trans and/or wish they were of the opposite gender... How does your belief in God, and the fact that you had to deal with what you had to deal with fit together in your head??

I can't really answer this question out of personal experience, but if you want to get some idea then if you look to Islam (especially as it's practiced in middle eastern nations,) they tend to be more accepting of transgenderism than homosexuality. It is to the point where they will force homosexuals to have sex changes, because the family finds that as a better alternative to them being homosexual. That's something of a political fire-bomb that crosses several issues at once, but it is something that's really happening.

This is a very complex issue and would take a lot of careful prodding to disect, and aside from being a one-off response to this question it is probably something better off dropped and left alone now that it's out there, at least because going further with it would be a major distraction from the topic and going even a single step further than the simple relaying of the facts that I just did will step into about a million different areas we'd best not go.

I believe though that you meant more about a Christian perspective since that's what most westerners are referencing when they say the word "religious." (For the most part, from what I've seen Christianity and Islam are the only religions in the world that have any form of negative opinion on transgenderism, and there are also a few out there that have positive views.)

As for Christianity, it seems they take some sort of sideways interpretation where they reference a verse about women dressing as men (basically cross-dressing) as a bad thing and use that to say that transgenderism is bad. As per usual, it's a weird and crazy round-about interpretation by people just trying to find a justification to their hate. The more reasonable Christians reference some other verse about how you should not hate your own body that the lord has given you, but that kinda fails to understand the issue of transgenderism in the first place. That also, while it does sound more directly applicable to transgenderism than that one cross-dressing line, seriously does not sound like it was originally meant to reference transgenderism and is more like something that was re-purposed.

Basically, it's the typical Christians gonna Christian and just find some kind of justification.

(Now, I'm gonna say something I shouldn't. I would like to point out that I just criticized both Islam and Christianity here, but it's probably the criticism of Islam that is the only thing at any actual risk of getting me in trouble even though it was the more factual and documented of the two while the one I said about Christianity was based purely on anecdotes with no verification behind them. I just wanted to bring that double standard to people's attention.)

 

[Localforeigner]

They don't necessarily NEED to write a fluff scene, they could go the "fade to black" route and start up again afterwards but for a succubus that seems... strange.

Agreed. Why write a succubus if you aren't going to write sex in it?

 

[happypanda]

Some people just want to write deep and serious stories about a man/woman exploring their own identity and place in this world.

And there are some who think that a girl can feel more pleasure because they have more erogenous zones in their body or something (and thus many of the the genderbend smuts are born). Some are just bold enough to write about them getting d*cked while others do not wish that much and go for the yuri route.

I do not really enjoy genderbend, so I don't read it. That's all.