Writing [Rant] Don't Insult your Readers.

[OokamiKasumi]

Don't Insult your Readers.
A minor Rant.

"You don't need to put neon signs around your plot points.
Readers aren't as dumb as you think."
-- Mojo Castle Books, Editor in Chief --

Just say No to: PLOT WAFFLING!​

Plot Waffling is a form of Author Intrusion that appears when the author is convinced that their Readers are too stupid, or too immature to comprehend what's going on in the story without assistance.

For example, when a character keeps "noticing" what seems to be something relatively unimportant that adds nothing to the current scene.

✧ "Wow, that's interesting. Why is that there?"
✧ "I wonder who that is, even though I'm not interested in them, really."

Translation: "NOTICE THIS NOW! Hell, write this shit down!"

This form of Plot Waffling is even worse, and is commonly mistaken by the Author as Foreshadowing:

✧ Little did they know, but this would be the last time...
✧ If only they knew that...
✧ Don’t worry about it. You’ll know the truth soon enough.
✧ Anyway, I’m getting ahead of my story. Little Ozzie and Terrible Chester do not enter the picture until after the cow explodes.

This shit is not Foreshadowing! This is fairytale Narration shit, and it does not belong in books or stories meant for anyone older than Twelve! It definitely doesn't belong in books or stories meant for Adults.

Ahem...

Plot Waffling, and Narration mainly appear in fairytales, published kiddie books, and story books intended for middle-school children and younger. Readers that actually need help comprehending what they're reading. For example, the very first Harry Potter book; Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, written specifically for eleven-year-olds and younger, had it all over the opening chapter.

When this shit happens in published novels meant for Adults, it's usually accidental.

The culprit being the Author's publishing house Editor who didn't recognize that it should have been red-lined and removed. Either the Editor was very new at the job, and wasn't fully trained yet, or the Editor recently came from the Children's Books, or Young Adult department where this shit is considered acceptable for publication -- because their Readers are children.

In short, these Editors had yet to learn that this shit Should Not be in books read by Adults, and is supposed to be Removed with Extreme Prejudice.

If this shit appears in a novel written by a top named Author, that Author likely has a multi-billion dollar contract that states that they don't want an Editor, and no matter what they write, or how badly they write it, it will be Published. Such as: Nora Roberts, Stephen King, Laurell K Hamilton, Anne Rice...

So! If you're not writing a kid's book, and you're not a top named author with a contract that says you can skip the Editor...?

Shut up, and go edit that shit out of your work.

Web Stories & Fan-fiction​

On Web Story and Fan-fiction sites, Plot Waffling and Narration show up for three main reasons.

Reason 1:
-- The Author hasn't read nearly enough books written for Adults to realize that Plot Waffling and Fairytale Narration is only acceptable in stories meant for Children.

Reason 2:
-- The Author has deliberately written a story in the Manga/Lite Novel style because they thought it would be easier to write, and popular.

It is plainly obvious that these Authors gorged on a high concentration of fairytales, middle-school story books, translated Manga and Manhua, translated Lite Novels, and Young Adult novels. These stories are well-known for having very simplistic wish-fulfillment plots, cliché wish-fulfillment characters, no romance or relationship development, very little description, and a limited vocabulary -- because they are meant for kids under thirteen with difficulty in Reading Comprehension.

None of which appeals to most Adult Readers.

Seriously, No Adult enjoys reading a story that's been Dumbed Down for Kiddy Comprehension -- especially if that story contains Adult Content!

Adult Readers generally prefer stories they can't guess the ending to by the fourth chapter, flawed complex characters dealing with personal issues, realistic relationships even if the adult scenes happen behind closed doors, rich and detailed descriptions that allow the Reader to clearly visualize the story's world, and a college-level vocabulary to support the full breadth of the story.

~~ ?~~​

-- Note: There are Adults out there that prefer reading simplistic adventure books meant for teens and younger. However, they are vastly out-numbered by the rest of us Adults looking for something good to read.

Don't believe me?
-- Walk into any bookstore and note the size of the Adult Sci-Fi/Fantasy section verses the Young Adult Sci-Fi/Fantasy section in the Kids Books area. Then note the massive size of the Romance section. Lastly, go look at the Manga and Lite Novel section. It's the smallest of all.

"But the stories on all the Web Story sites are all Lite Novels:
Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, or written that way!"​

Well, of course. The only free stories easily available on the internet are books translated by amateurs, or written by amateurs who read all those translations then tried to write their own. What did you expect? Professionally written novels? Del-Rey, the largest publisher of Sci-Fi and Fantasy does not allow any of their published books to be posted anywhere for free, nor does any other US publisher. Even the authors are limited to posting no more than four chapters on their own sites.

Professional authors write to get paid for their work. While eBook sites can compete with publishing houses for decent authors, pay-to-read Web Novel sites cannot. Writing a chapter a day, (1000 words,) is far too much pressure for far too little pay. Free story sites aren't even a consideration.

~~ ?~~
​

So...! How does an Adult tell an Author to stop treating their Readers like children? This is easily done with an Email to the Author, or a post in their Comments section:

Dear Author,​

-- Please stop dumbing down the story. I am a working, tax-paying, Adult with an Adult's level of reading comprehension and the vocabulary to go with it. I am Not an immature brat who hasn't graduated high school yet. Nor am I an idiot. I don't need pointers, hints, or asides to help me understand what's going on. I am fully capable of following context clues to figure things out for myself, thank-you.​

Reason 3:
-- The Author has been abused in the Comments section by far too many Immature, and likely Under-aged Readers.

In my opinion...!
-- Too many story sites that allow Adult Content also allow Thirteen-Year-Olds Membership, when the minimum age for membership should be Sixteen, or better yet: Eighteen.

Not that age-restriction on memberships actually matter.

It's all too easy for an under-aged brat to LIE about their age and sneak in to a site they have no business viewing, and gaining access to content they are not legally old enough, and certainly not mature enough, to be seeing. Sadly, there's not a whole lot the site admins can do about it. Even if a brat is caught and thrown out, they can just create a new ID and sneak right back in.

To make matters worse, not all Immature Readers are under-aged.

However, Immature Readers of all ages have two major flaws in common, that makes them very easy to identify:

Impatience and the constant need for Attention.
​

Immaturity & Author Abuse​

On fan-fiction and web novel sites, Immature Readers are easily spotted by their nasty habit of battering Authors for spoilers in the Comments section. These spoiler questions tend to appear in the early chapters as puppy-eyed begging, or snotty demands for characters' motives, romantic interests, when sex scenes will happen, and how the story is going to end. Things the story itself will answer in due time.

Don't be fooled. Both the begging and the demands are signs that you're dealing with an immature, impatient, attention-seeking Brat.

In addition to spoiler-begging, these brats also tend to post half a dozen times on the same chapter by adding snippy, snotty, or outright nasty comments on other people's comment posts.

These brat posts are especially prevalent when the Author has not set their comments to "Members Only", "No Anonymous Guest Posts", and "Approve before Posting".

All too often, instead of telling these immature brats: "Go read the Chapter again, idiot," or "You'll know when it happens," or just plain IGNORING them, the abused Authors Give-In to the brats' demands and deliver on those spoilers in their comments. AKA: Feeding the Trolls. This is especially virulent when the author is desperate to be seen as Nice, and Friendly.

Rather than stop those brats from posting, it backfires spectacularly and encourages the little shits to Do It More. After all, they've been getting loads of attention this way. Why should they stop?

Sometimes a desperate Author will start adding explanations in their Author Notes, specifically for those Brat Readers that repeatedly post that they did not get it. Worst of all is when the Author starts adding Plot Waffling to the story to make Story Comprehension easier for those same Brat Readers.

In the meantime, what they're actually doing is Ruining the Story for the rest of their reading audience!

Stop that!

So how do you deal with
Immature Bratty Troll Readers?

Never accept Anonymous Guest posts, and if the brats get through anyway, ignore them. Don't Answer their Posts.

To get rid of a Troll, you have to
Starve it of Attention.
There is No Other Way. ​

The truth is, these immature troll brats are not looking for answers, they're looking for ATTENTION from the closest famous person they can get to talk to them: the Author of the story they're reading.

If you must answer them, just politely tell them: "I don't want to give away all the surprises," or "The answers are in the story," or "Just wait and see!" Then disengage and don't add any more -- especially if they're provoking you!

Report them if you can. If not, your only recourse to utterly ignore them, no matter how nasty they get.


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Want to read my other Writing tutorials?

 

[Empress_Omnii]

There are Adults out there that prefer reading simplistic adventure books meant for teens and younger. However, they are vastly out-numbered by the rest of us Adults looking for something good to read.

Sources?

I won't say I prefer simple stories, but fluffy novels are popular for good reason, even with adults. So I would actually be quite interested in seeing how these preferences change through age and demographic.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

Sources?
-- I won't say I prefer simple stories, but fluffy novels are popular for good reason, even with adults. So I would actually be quite interested in seeing how these preferences change through age and demographic.

My source is my publisher (I am not self-published,) and the reader demographics they collect from their distributors.

Check the bookstores for where they sell the 'fluffy' novels. Compare that to the Sci-fi/Fantasy section not in the kids books section. The Romance section is even bigger. The lite novel section, among the kids books, is tiny.

Most of the lite novels people know and are currently reading are only available Online from amateur translators -- none of whom actually know how to write a proper paragraph, never mind write decent fiction.

 

[naosu]

We can agree that not all readers come from the same age group. I like that you had some points on preventing abuse of the author also. Some commentators sometimes I don't always know what to say right away when their comments are a bit confrontational.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

We can agree that not all readers come from the same age group.

Yes we can.

I like that you had some points on preventing abuse of the author also.

It's a problem a lot of people don't even know is happening -- until it happens to them.

Some commentators sometimes I don't always know what to say right away when their comments are a bit confrontational.

If they're confrontational -- TROLL. Don't Answer!

 

[Empress_Omnii]

My source is my publisher (I am not self-published,) and the reader demographics they collect from their distributors.

Check the bookstores for where they sell the 'fluffy' novels. Compare that to the Sci-fi/Fantasy section not in the kids books section. The Romance section is even bigger. The lite novel section, among the kids books, is tiny.

Most of the lite novels people know and are currently reading are only available from amateur translators -- none of whom actually know how to write a proper paragraph, never mind write decent fiction.

I don't agree that publishers should be arbiter here, considering they are a biased source. But also, fluff isn't given a section because it in itself isn't the genre...

Either way, I am not in a position to argue on the matter. I just would like to read a study on the topic.

 

[Gray_Mann]

Readers aren't as dumb as you think."

I don't like being that guy, but let's all be honest with ourselves here. The average reader has the attention span of a gnat, the intelligence of a uni-grad with a useless gender studies degree, and THEY WILL explain to you in full detail how they know your story better than you, and can do it better than you, if only you would just understand that and LISTEN TO THEM.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

I don't agree that publishers should be arbiter here, considering they are a biased source. But also, fluff isn't given a section because it in itself isn't the genre...

Either way, I am not in a position to argue on the matter. I just would like to read a study on the topic.

Google is your friend. Try asking ChatGPT.

I don't like being that guy, but let's all be honest with ourselves here. The average reader has the attention span of a gnat, the intelligence of a uni-grad with a useless gender studies degree, and THEY WILL explain to you in full detail how they know your story better than you, and can do it better than you, if only you would just see that and LISTEN TO THEM.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

My readers would definitely argue that point. While I was writing my Sci-Fi series they were giving me lectures on space travel and quantum physics. Not a Joke! Then again, I'm coming from a completely different demographic. I'm an Erotic Romance author. (Women's Adult Pulp Fiction.) My readers expect me to deliver on a strong plot with solid research to back it up, in addition to having highly detailed smut scenes.

I'm perfectly okay with disagreeing. This was just a rant, after all.

 

[SternenklarenRitter]

I agree that there are usually better ways to reveal/subtly hint/gradually inform/state directly and unambiguously/etc. to the reader about the plot than waffling and narration. But in the end these are still only tools. They can in fact have a place in a well written scene. For example, "Wow, that's interesting. Why is that there?" is appropriate verbatum if a distractable MC is uninterested in the conversation they should be participating in, or if they are dissociating from stress.
Although I may be missing the topic poster's point for the structure of their argument since the odd pattern on that floor vase actually might not ever come up again (it probably should so it can become a running gag). It can also be used as a (somewhat forceful) way of hiding information from the MC when they really have no excuse to not be informed.
Narration on the other hand can be an essential component of setting a comedic tone; "She was happy, content, a productive member of society inside of regular working hours, and, as previously mentioned, about to die." is a line in the prologue of 'An Unborn Hero' that sets the entire story's comedic tone and rhythm.

 

[Tsuru]

I don't like being that guy, but let's all be honest with ourselves here. The average reader has the attention span of a gnat, the intelligence of a uni-grad with a useless gender studies degree, and THEY WILL explain to you in full detail how they know your story better than you, and can do it better than you, if only you would just understand that and LISTEN TO THEM.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Google is your friend. Try asking ChatGPT.

My readers would definitely argue that point. While I was writing my Sci-Fi series they were giving me lectures on space travel and quantum physics. Not a Joke! Then again, I'm coming from a completely different demographic. I'm an Erotic Romance author. (Women's Adult Pulp Fiction.) My readers expect me to deliver on a strong plot with solid research to back it up, in addition to having highly detailed smut scenes.

I'm perfectly okay with disagreeing. This was just a rant, after all.

I am agreeing with both points.
And you are both right.


You can have the most retarded readers AND the most smart and knowledgeable ones, sometimes.
It depends on RNG.


So no, you both arent disagreeing but just have had different experience.




(analogy offtopic to illustrate what i mean, its like the decade long of surrender in LoL, where people wanting 3yes to work, as it was common sense of "majority" but also bc they often had the most insufferable timekidnappers that waste 10+ more minutes for a unwinnable game OFTEN, while the ones saying NO, despite counter to common sense, is bc they are tryhards and/or toxic douchebags that have too much freetime and are timekidnappers themselves and/or click no just to piss off teammates, or to RP "never surrender" like a spartan without empathy for teammates that are human beings. And possibly bc they never suffered timekidnapping = very lucky, and often get teammates that reverse surrender despite winnable games)


tldr : Its like someone complain hot temp sucks, and someone cold temp sucks, living in different countries.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

I agree that plot waffling is bad, but I disagree that readers aren't stupid. Some are really stupid, and anyone reading this thinks it's them, then it probably is. Hell, I'm stupid too, but if you've seen some of this stuff I've seen commenters type, then you'll realize there are even people out there more stupider than me.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

I agree that there are usually better ways to reveal/subtly hint/gradually inform/state directly and unambiguously/etc. to the reader about the plot than waffling and narration. But in the end these are still only tools. They can in fact have a place in a well written scene.

Sure, if you're not writing for Adults. It's perfectly fine in a kid's book.

For example, "Wow, that's interesting. Why is that there?" is appropriate verbatum if a distractable MC is uninterested in the conversation they should be participating in, or if they are dissociating from stress.

If the comment: "Wow, that's interesting. Why is that there?" is a line from a distractable MC is uninterested in the conversation they should be participating in, or if they are dissociating from stress -- then it's Not being used as Plot Waffling. It's Not being used as a Hint toward a plot point and therefore completely valid part of the story.

Narration on the other hand can be an essential component of setting a comedic tone; "She was happy, content, a productive member of society inside of regular working hours, and, as previously mentioned, about to die." is a line in the prologue of 'An Unborn Hero' that sets the entire story's comedic tone and rhythm.

An Unborn Hero, as it's posted on Royal Road is written in the lite novel style. It's an excellent story for anyone under the age of 16. In short: a Young Adult novel. Adults may indeed find it entertaining, but it is a far cry from a novel written by an adult, for adults -- and I do not mean adult content. It does not cover Adult Issues.

I agree that plot waffling is bad...

Okay!

but I disagree that readers aren't stupid. Some are really stupid, and anyone reading this thinks it's them, then it probably is. Hell, I'm stupid too, but if you've seen some of this stuff I've seen commenters type, then you'll realize there are even people out there more stupider than me.

Oh, you poor thing! You've been bullied by trolls!

 

[CharlesEBrown]

One thing I noticed when we had local bookstores to hang around in (last one closed just before COVID), was that most of the people shopping in the Young Adult section were older adults, who were generally buying stuff to read before passing it on to a kid, to see if it was "appropriate" (I think 2/3 of Harry Potter book sales were to adults, or alleged adults).
In other words, I see your point but do not think it is as absolute as you are presenting. Or at least it WAS NOT that absolute until 2020, but might be now as I have to travel a good distance to hit any bookstores now, and the closest one is a specialty science fiction/fantasy bookstore.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

One thing I noticed when we had local bookstores to hang around in (last one closed just before COVID), was that most of the people shopping in the Young Adult section were older adults, who were generally buying stuff to read before passing it on to a kid, to see if it was "appropriate" (I think 2/3 of Harry Potter book sales were to adults, or alleged adults).

Well, kids don't generally buy books. Their parents do because kids normally don't have any income.

Most kids that become die-hard readers start out as library addicts. It's only during high school --and their first job-- that they start buying their own books. That's after scraping the internet for any half-way decent story.

In other words, I see your point but do not think it is as absolute as you are presenting. Or at least it WAS NOT that absolute until 2020, but might be now as I have to travel a good distance to hit any bookstores now, and the closest one is a specialty science fiction/fantasy bookstore.

Nothing is absolute. Anything is possible.

 

[Pulpitt]

In my experience, even adults usually need to be spoon-fed. They aren't quite as... insightful as some writing guides led me to believe.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Well, kids don't generally buy books. Their parents do because kids normally don't have any income.

Most kids that become die-hard readers start out as library addicts. It's only during high school --and their first job-- that they start buying their own books. That's after scraping the internet for any half-way decent story.

Exactly the point Young Adult stuff is aimed at, right.
Though I started at about age 9 myself, with the Scholastic Book Club through school, first with my parents' money, and then with money from the first of the three times I had paper routes.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

I don't think I've ever read a story meant for adult reading level. Only non-fiction. I don't think i could ever write one based off what you have said. There might be a serious lack of adult storytelling i have even heard of, most of it sounds totally disinteresting to me.

From the few things i have heard of publishing houses... I think they deserve to become obsolete.

Aside
What adults take science fiction that seriously? Ones that think we have it all figured out, except we clearly don't. Science fiction is essentially fantasy for stupid nerds.

 

[LuoirM]

Would

 

[Dec]

By title alone, I thought that Zachycards made another move

 

[OokamiKasumi]

In my experience, even adults usually need to be spoon-fed. They aren't quite as... insightful as some writing guides led me to believe.

Are you sure those were Adults?

Exactly the point Young Adult stuff is aimed at, right.
Though I started at about age 9 myself, with the Scholastic Book Club through school, first with my parents' money, and then with money from the first of the three times I had paper routes.

I started out as a library addict. By the time I got to high school, YA books bored me. I was already reading Heinlein, Stephen King, Michael Moorcock, and Ray Bradbury from the library, but I was buying Anne McCaffery, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Dianna Wynn Jones, Robin McKinley, Tim Powers, Robert Holdstock, William Gibson, Piers Anthony...

None of those authors write YA.