Plot questions for everyone.

LeilaniOtter

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I really love stories that focus on the characters. <3
When I'm really into the characters, and finding ways to relate to them, or think about people they remind me of, it just makes the story even more fun. Almost any character that's ever been created, we can find a way to relate to, or personally know someone like them. And depending how well the characters are presented, can make or break the story for me. The plot is important too, but the characters are going to make or break that plot. *^^*
 

Zagaroth

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Good question, because I have never heard this in my life. All plots (it was known as "narrative" before internet lingo/jargon) are "the sequence of interconnected events within a narrative." There are things happening to the characters, so if there are no characters, then there is no plot. I guess all stories are character-driven.

I guess there will be some to disagree with me, but there are no plot-driven stories; the plot/narrative is what is doing the driving, not being driven.
I think you have misunderstood the terminology. Your last sentence contradicts itself.

A plot-driven story is driven by the plot. i.e. the plot is doing the driving.

A character-driven story is driven by the actions of the character. i.e. the characters are doing the driving.

Compare to the self-driving car: the car drives itself.
 

Anonjohn20

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I think you have misunderstood the terminology. Your last sentence contradicts itself.
Your last sentence contradicts itself.
My ESL friend, read my answer again.

A plot-driven story is driven by the plot. i.e. the plot is doing the driving.
All stories have a plot/narrative. That's why a character-driven story is a made-up buzzword. "If the character is controlling the story its..." No, that doesn't change what a plot is.

A character-driven story is driven by the actions of the character. i.e. the characters are doing the driving.
No, the actions of the character are part of the plot; we don't need a new term for it. The plot is the mapping of events in which each one (except the final) affects at least one other. Whatever the character does during an event that affects the subsequent events is the plot which is part of the storyline. We don't need a million terms to describe that, we already have two: plot or narrative.
 

JayMark

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The answer is within moo all.

Everyone make mind maps. Show your work.
 

Zagaroth

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but there are no plot-driven stories; the plot/narrative is what is doing the driving, not being driven.
You do indeed seem to be ESL.

That sentence contradicts itself. Plot-driven stories are stories where the plot is what does the driving.
You say that plot-driven stories don't exist, then you describe a plot-driven story and say it is the thing that exists/happens.
What you put before the semi-colon says the exact opposite of what you put after the semi-colon.

And you still misunderstand the difference. If a story is plot-driven, then the characters will make what ever decisions will fulfill the plot that the writer has already decided upon. The plot is decided first, and the characters will take what ever actions fulfill the plot. The plot will shape who the character is so that the character will make the needed decisions to make the right sequence of events happen. They will go to place A to do thing 1 and then place B to do thing 2 and then place C to do thing 3. These events are decided by the author to happen before they work on having the character make the decisions that take them there, and the character has to be a person who will do the things that the author has already decided they will do.

In a character driven story, the writer *first* has the characters make a decision based on their personality and current knowledge, and *then* figures out what happens because of those decisions. The character drives the story, and the plot is shaped by what the character does. The character makes a decision that leads them to place X, where they interact according to their personality and beliefs. The author figures out the details of X and what the character is doing only after the character makes the decision to go to X.

From here, the character makes their next decisions, and again, the writer figures out the events that stem from this decision only after the decision was made.

It's all about priorities and the order in which the author decides/writes the interaction.

If you decide the order of events, and then have characters make decisions that take them to those events, it is plot driven, especially if the reason the characters are doing things are mostly as reactions to other events. In these stories, you generally have options as to the protagonist's personality and could potentially swap in entirely different characters and get basically the same story.

If you have the protagonist living their life and doing their thing, and their decisions are what shape events and it is the antagonist who is responding to them, then you have a character driven story. If you change the personality of the main character, they make different decisions, and you get a very different story as the changes cascade.
 

Tempokai

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After reading what you've all wrote, I've come to conclusion that you all thought as readers and critics, not storytellers. You all didn't go deep and didn't ask the underlying question behind those questions, "the fuck 'plot' and 'driven' even means?"

Plot, or narrative, or story, or coherently mashed words together making sense, is a chain of sentences that make a causal structure that affects the reader over time. It affects the reader right now, and builds context over time. If you read the previous thread, where I explain CCC, "plot" is essentially Context + Character from authorial side.

Little refresher, context is a things that happened before that reader knows and the context that is unknown at the current moment. Everything from worldbuilding, character descriptions and their actions that happened before, and the things that reader saw but doesn't know, that you, as an author know it, even if you're BS-ing your way through the story. Character, are narrative agents that do things RIGHT NOW, changing status quo, revealing the unknown context into known, and affecting the reader right now. If you're smart, you already see where this is going. If not, buckle up.

Plot, therefore, is the result of a change that happened RIGHT NOW, through something that's important to the author AND the reader. That important thing is whatever you, as a storyteller is fixated upon, be it MC, your world, the voice inside your head, and you want the reader to know about it.

So, we know what plot now is, I can answer what "driven" means. Driven, is the past participle of drive, used only in perfect tenses. Bruh. Drive, from multiple definitions, has this one: "propel or carry along by force in a specified direction". This is what "-driven" means, to use either "character" or "plot" to carry the "story" is a certain direction. But what is an engine that "propels" the story? Description. Bruh.

As far as I read no one had commented what makes something driven besides vaguely deep something that is either focused on MC or the events that happen. Sure, that's a valid read... from analysis point. This kind of "-driven" explanation happens only after you digested the story and thinking, "what the hell I just read?", and then the mind rationalizing that X plot had a lot of focus on the characters, therefore it's "character driven", or Y plot had a lot of focus on the world, overlaying context therefore it's "plot driven". But, other reader can see X plot as a plot-driven, because it was focused on characters solving and interacting with the plot ponts a lot, and Y as a character-driven because despite plot points happening, it was centered on the characters realizing the meaning of the causal events that happened.

I'll answer the last half of Question 3 right now. Analysis is subjective. Reader is subjective. Many readers, in fact, from different backgrounds and reading capabilities, therefore is downright unpredictably predictable due to probability distribution. Yes, statistics are included in subjectivity. That's how proper analysis works, finding objective, most agreed upon logic, aka "informal agreement" and attempting to make something everyone can agree at least more than half points.

But how this helps to explain the "drive" of the story, you may ask, and I'll say it again, description. That external and internal description two threads before. Internal description is subjective, be it thoughts, emotions, something that happens inside the story characters. External is objective, the world itself, the actions the characters make, and just plain logic. As I described before, you can't separate one kind of description from other, and they'll mix even if you don't want to. Without external, there's no movement, without internal there's no substance to comprehend

Therefore proposition is thus:

From authorial side, there are no drivers. There's only yours, authorial. Authorial drive, authorial intent in other words, is what makes the story to have an engine. YOU ARE THE DRIVER.

You are the force. You, the author. Your descriptions, your emphasis, your stylistic choices, your withholding of info, your reveal of emotions, your ironic asides, your POV character’s thoughts about admiring Ug for his wheel making skills.

Plot-driven vs. character-driven is not about what you think happened. It’s about what the author, the storyteller, YOU, for fuck's sake, emphasized through description in real time. That's the reader's job to decide was your storg plot-driven or character-driven. You, as an author is a reader of your own story too, so you have opinions about it too.

So, taking that assumption, let's say you wanted character-driven story about hero killing the demon king. You do that well, or at least think so, and explored the inner world of the hero to the fullest, made him to face hard questions, et cetera, that makes full use of internal thoughts. But, majority of other readers says it's plot-driven, because everything is about stopping demon king, and nothing mattered from these hard questions, just more battles and choices. If your intent is misaligned with what your readers say, you've failed at making the plot-driven or character-driven story. The failure is that simple.

So, your question here must be "what to do to not fail?", and I'll say that it again, description. Your choice, your intent in writing the description, i.e. every sentence, every word, down to the single letter makes a difference. Every sensible storyteller who revised a scene or sentence at least once knows this, even unconsciously. How you deliver story is how the readers will read, and how readers will read will shape their verdict, regardless of your own intent.

Intent must be seen properly. Clarity is what makes the intent be seen, and that clarity is in how you describe things to the reader. As I said, most readers agree about most things most of the time, and your job with intent is to be curate the reading experience for readers to see what you really meant, to say "ah, yes, this is a character-driven story because hero had internal journey while travelling to the demon king, and the demon king is a subtext for the hero's childhood trauma being overcome through the loyal friends that followed him on the journey". Even if that demon king subtext was misread (you just wrote that scene because it was cool), the message, the intent you, as a storyteller delivered is seen well enough for everyone to understand what kind of a story this is. Outliers will be there always, you need to connect with people who understood and liked your story most.

As I always say, storytelling is communication of ideas. You can slap any ideas together however you want, but if nothing drove the story, it fails to be a story altogether. There in fact could be different story drivers, but that's the subsection of an authorial intent. Examples: Black Mirror, theme driven, about "what if"-s, and horrors of the systems that are created. Wikipedia article, explanation driven, about "objective" (not, because using second hand sources of those "journalists" is an informational crime) view of whatever you needed. Philosophy, framework-driven, about trying to explain whatever the philosopher was obsessed with in a coherent, yet subjective way.

These all stem from one thing, author channeling their intent with clarity, experience and emotions, or inner authorial CCC, for reader to read that with their own CCC. Because they're subsection of authorial intent, unless author specifically said that it's "theme driven", no one will read through that. They'll say it's either character-driven or plot-driven, because that's how brain works when interpreting external/internal description laid down over time.

To recap, there is no character or plot driven story from authorial side. There's only authorial intent. How that intent is interpreted, however, creates that distinction due to external and internal description use, which one was more prominent over time, condensed after the story happened. There's only one driver, you, and how you channel that intent, through characters, through world, through the descriptions, makes the story propel forward. While subjective analysis is great, you need to know why this happens during writing, or your intent will be misread and you'll get unjustified hate because you miscommunicated. Know yourself and your reader, and you'll never be misread by your reader unconsciously.

And, while creation is divine, persuasion is survival. Amen.
 
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1. What is a character driven story? How it differs from plot driven story? What makes it fail to be a character driven story?

Story revolves around a character or characters and their development. Plot is sort of in the backside, and more focus is given to development of chars and dialogue and interactions than with the plot itself. Stops being one when it shifts to focusing more on plot or world or anything but character overall.

2. What is a plot driven story? How it differs from character driven story? What makes it fail to be a plot driven story?

Same as above, but focuses on plot. I think this is more world building and massive changes. Individual chars may get some light, but not enough to have you fully aware of every worthwhile thought or belief said characters have. Stops being plot driven when it shifts to something other than the plot taking the main focus.

3. Why there could be other story drivers, but they're inconsequential compared to those two? Why two people can look at the same story and say it's either plot driven or character driven?

Those two are the most popular and are easiest to write. I think there's also say a moral driven story, say stories that seek to teach readers morals. Like Aesop Fables. Time driven stories. Where the focus is given more to change of times itself rather than the chars or plot. This is more a fixation on the actual environment; they're mostly what I see in some memoirs about places. Fairly rare. And a number of other kinds. Please note I may be confusing them.

People can look at the same story and come to different arguments of what is driving the story because said story has elements of both writing styles, and people click with the style they like more. Dialogue heavy readers click with the characters more, plot readers click with the sequence of events more. Ultimately you could just ask the author to give final say, but that gets into the weeds of author vs audience interpretations and etc.


Good luck with whatever you do with this.
 

Clo

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Interestingly, as a game dev and fan of simulations and AI, I like to think of "character-driven" stories as emergent stories.

Plot-driven to me is when the author has something to tell, and they ignore how "fake" their characters' reactions have to be, because it's needed to railroad the story to the next plot point.

Character-driven is when I put a scene together by analysing "Where did I leave those characters off last time?" and "How would they naturally react, given their memories, personalities, and the events unfolding?"

If I "accidentally" make one person offend the other by acting in a way that is true to their character, and now the distance between those character grew as a response to that, this event was character-driven, not plot-driven.

I didn't know, entering the chapter, that this would happen. But I let it. Because to me, writing is discovery, and analysis of two conflicting (or more) sets of desires.

And I can do that, because my pseudo-plural mind is capable of isolating each of my character's personalities and memories, so I just create alters, and mentally ask myself "what would he/she do?"

Writing this way is a choice—that's authorial intent. But the events happening aren't chasing a predetermined outcome. They're respecting the character's profiles.

I would argue this makes it character-driven at creation, rather than only a post post-hoc concept.
 
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Zagaroth

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Interestingly, as a game dev and fan of simulations and AI, I like to think of "character-driven" stories as emergent stories.

Plot-driven to me is when the author has something to tell, and they ignore how "fake" their characters reactions have to be, because it railroads the story to the next plot point.

Character-driven is when I put a scene together by analysing "Where did I leave those characters off last time?" and "How would they naturally react, given their memories, personalities, and the events unfolding?"

If I "accdientally" make one person offend the other by acting in a way that is true to their character, and now the distance between those character grew as a response to that, this event was character-driven, not plot-driven.

I didn't know, entering the chapter, that this would happen. But I let it. Because to me, writing is discovery, and analysis of two conflicting (or more) sets of desires.

And I can do that, because my pseudo-plural mind is capable of isolating each of my character's personalities and memories, so I just create alters, and mentally ask myself "what would he/she do?"

Writing this way is a choice—that's authorial intent. But the events happening aren't chasing a predetermined outcome. They're respecting the character's profiles.

I would argue this makes it character-driven at creation, rather than only a post post-hoc concept.
Exactly. This is how I write as well, and what makes my story character driven.
 

JayMark

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I want to pick your brain.
From authorial side, there are no drivers. There's only yours, authorial. Authorial drive, authorial intent in other words, is what makes the story to have an engine. YOU ARE THE DRIVER.
Wouldn't this be considered universally understood, as in the author is the author?

Do you consider the terms "character driven" and "plot driven" to be a delivery method for author intent or the intent itself? *beyond intention to use a given delivery method.

Do you consider the intent to be a greater goal the author has in writing the story? IE: showing something about the greater human condition or expressing possibilities?

If your intent is misaligned with what your readers say, you've failed at making the plot-driven or character-driven story. The failure is that simple.



What of the case where Author A makes a story of Intent X but Readers percieve it as Intent Y? The readers love intent Y and the story becomes a hugely popular. Has the author still failed?

In another case, Author A makes a story of intent B and Readers understand it as Intent B. The readers generally hate intent B and the story is not popular. However the author has written the story they wanted to tell and accepts this. Is the author a failure?

So, your question here must be "what to do to not fail?", and I'll say that it again, description. Your choice, your intent in writing the description, i.e. every sentence, every word, down to the single letter makes a difference. Every sensible storyteller who revised a scene or sentence at least once knows this, even unconsciously. How you deliver story is how the readers will read, and how readers will read will shape their verdict, regardless of your own intent.
So by this you mean write clear description? You did mention clarity.


Intent must be seen properly.
Why must it be seen properly? What intent is the best intent? Does character driven and plot driven define intent? Is the intent in what method of delivery the author uses most to convey their story? Can intent have a meaning beyond this?

Is it possible for authors to have hidden intents they even they haven't fully processed yet?


Clarity is what makes the intent be seen, and that clarity is in how you describe things to the reader. As I said, most readers agree about most things most of the time, and your job with intent is to be curate the reading experience for readers to see what you really meant, to say "ah, yes, this is a character-driven story because hero had internal journey while travelling to the demon king, and the demon king is a subtext for the hero's childhood trauma being overcome through the loyal friends that followed him on the journey".
Do you think the statistical majority of readers actually care if a story is character or plot driven? Do most readers care about the subtext? What do most readers care about in this type of story? Can a story be both plot and character driven to various degrees with multiple author intents expressed within the methods?

Even if that demon king subtext was misread (you just wrote that scene because it was cool), the message, the intent you, as a storyteller delivered is seen well enough for everyone to understand what kind of a story this is. Outliers will be there always, you need to connect with people who understood and liked your story most.
Does this involve connecting with the fans of a genre or general audiences?
 

Tempokai

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1. Wouldn't this be considered universally understood, as in the author is the author?

2. Do you consider the terms "character driven" and "plot driven" to be a delivery method for author intent or the intent itself? *beyond intention to use a given delivery method.

3. Do you consider the intent to be a greater goal the author has in writing the story? IE: showing something about the greater human condition or expressing possibilities?
1. Because of postmodernism killing the author circa Barthes, no one sees "author" as an author. Reader-response theory had been the general principle, due to readers exploding in size, and prominent authors, well, dying. There's no author = there's no known intent from the author = reader can create whatever they want from the bones of those stories that those authors had wrote. Webnovel writing, however, is different. There's no cliff called death or being "out of context", and generally everyone after internet become popular is similar to each other, because we're humans after all. You know that someone wrote that chapter in 3AM with a headache and heavy desire to write what they want, and similarly, you know that someone is reading your story in 3AM because they have insomnia and existential dread. Therefore, "author being dead" no longer applies to the internet age. Author is an author because we know there's an author who can show their authorness to the world.

2. Character-driven, plot-driven, and whatever-driven is reader's interpretation of that intent. There's singular decision maker, you, who writes down words. Reader is receiver of those words. There's no some kind of otherworldly "intent" that can slice the heavens and whatever in words, because storytelling is a form of a language game. You either make the other brain understand what you've wrote or you don't.

3. It may be. But that's again, just intent. Achieving "greater goal" is form of intent. So it "just writing words on a page" is. That intent will be judged by the reader side, even if that intent is garbage.

A: What of the case where Author A makes a story of Intent X but Readers percieve it as Intent Y? The readers love intent Y and the story becomes a hugely popular. Has the author still failed?

B: In another case, Author A makes a story of intent B and Readers understand it as Intent B. The readers generally hate intent B and the story is not popular. However the author has written the story they wanted to tell and accepts this. Is the author a failure?
A: I can give the Barbie the Movie as an example. On the surface, it's about Barbie doing feminist stuff, and capitalizing on this was the intent of the writers. On the inside, however, there's countless interpretations of that intent, such as a critique of feminism, showing off Kens rebelling from being second class citizens and making their own society without Barbies, being harmonious until Barbies arrived again. Was it intended? No, but because it shows such CCC, readers (watchers) will be compelled to make such interpretation of intent. It may be successful in money making, but it failed because reader's intent in reading in such way overshadowed the authorial intent.

B: In this case, yes, because the author failed in doing CCC properly. As I said, there's reader's CCC and writer's CCC. Reader infers, writer emphasizes. Just look at Ironheart, the intent is there, to make a "replacement" to Tony Stark, but the readers (watchers) hate it because the context on which the story is written (during peak of zeitgeist) is bad to what it is now (fall of that zeitgeist). Hell, I can say that even Character is bad, due to stereotyping of marginalized characters, and Content is bad because no one want to watch some chick stealing everything and not being a "hero" like Stark was. Author is a failure because CCC was broken.

So by this you mean write clear description? You did mention clarity.
Clarity means that if you wrote internal description, reader must infer internal description. Same with the external description. If you write a "hero bad, demon good" and then go "akshually, this is about capitalism and how it destroys the common man", you're not clear about your description. Your intent must be aligned with your descriptions, while knowing the rough CCC the reader has, adapting to it, and that's how you achieve clarity from the author's side.

Why must it be seen properly? What intent is the best intent? Does character driven and plot driven define intent? Is the intent in what method of delivery the author uses most to convey their story? Can intent have a meaning beyond this?

Is it possible for authors to have hidden intents they even they haven't fully processed yet?
Because if you don't make it seen properly, you will miscommunicate. There's no "best intent", only what you want the reader to understand according to the language game. Being "driven" is a reader's inference of the intent, not author's intent. Intent is the amalgamations of ideas and thoughts you want reader to know. If done properly, meaning emerges, and it can be glorious if both parties agree.

Yes, that's instinctual writing, and I'm just putting labels on this instinctual writing, for everyone to see. You don't think when you're speaking simple things, are you? Storytelling is the same.

Do you think the statistical majority of readers actually care if a story is character or plot driven? Do most readers care about the subtext? What do most readers care about in this type of story? Can a story be both plot and character driven to various degrees with multiple author intents expressed within the methods?
Statistical majority doesn't think, they instinctually infer things. That's why reader side analysis of the story comes after the story was digested. While they read, they want one thing: engagement or entertainment. Only few degenerates and analysts do it midway. They do CCC instinctually, because that's how the brain is wired. Ordinary readers don't seek for the subtext, but when see something is wrong, they will feel it. In subtextual stories, it's about subjective analysis "right now", so reader activates their CCC properly to infer what really is happening. Writing external while implying that it's internal is the basic subtext, and vice versa is also true. That's because subtext is inherently subjective.

Does this involve connecting with the fans of a genre or general audiences?
Yep, because author isn't dead and can interact with you in the comments. That's communication, and as I said, storytelling is communication of ideas, and connecting with others to discuss that idea. If idea is not talked about, it's basically nonexistent in the dialogue. That idea, if interesting to you, can be shown to the reader, who doesn't know about that idea and wants to know more. That's why you as a storyteller connect with the reader, promising to reveal unknown context that only you can deliver. If writer CCC miscommunicates with reader CCC, that idea you have becomes meaningless, because you didn't connect with idea with another human.

Basically, this system only works because it uses instinctual communication principles the humans have. Without it, there would've been no storytelling at all.


Edit: these answes aren't final. Because it's a framework, there a lot of things to tweak until it becomes proper one. These are just things I thought while reading stuff.
 
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JayMark

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I'll have more questions. Not as many. But I'll ruminate on these things and formulate the questions at another time.
 
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