On Defining The "BL" Genre

[Moonpearl]

Since I only read fantasy LGBT+ fiction, I find that the lines between "male-orientated" and "female-orientated" are actually very blurred. I've read some very cliche BL-like novels written by men, and some really super gay fantasy fiction written by women.

I've always been meaning to try the fiction written by and for queer men, however... They always seem to have a cover with some bland white dude with washboard abs smouldering into the camera and. It makes me feel like it's going to be a generic Mills & Boons, only gay and "gritty manly".
So I've just never quite overcome my aversion to it.

In other words, it's genuinely not odd for two lesbian transwoman to be in a relationship with each other. I've actually heard of many instances of that happening, but often I think it's because cisgender people can be scary to some LGBT folks.

It's really common, but I don't think it's that deep. There's no reason that a cisgender woman's body should be put on a pedastel above anyone else's. I don't see those couples being dissatisfied with their partner's bodies at all, and it's not a case of "I love you, so I am tolerating this part of you".

Unless you have some sort of genital preference, most lesbians just care that their partner is a woman, so... There's no mismatch in desire at all???

 

[minacia]

I was just talking about this very, very particular example for a research purpose. What you've written I know it myself.

My suspicion would be that they're some shade of demiromantic (the romantic aspects are more important to them than sex).

I have a lesbian transgender friend who is dating a pre-transition nonbinary femme-identifying AMAB lover.

My friend is aro/ace, and sexual things don't really interest her.

Her nbf (nonbinary-friend) is bi/pan with a strong preference for men.

It sounds complicated when put into words, but frankly it's just life. Two people meet and they like each other, and then it just moves on from there... Relationships are complicated...

It's really common, but I don't think it's that deep. There's no reason that a cisgender woman's body should be put on a pedastel above anyone else's. I don't see those couples being dissatisfied with their partner's bodies at all, and it's not a case of "I love you, so I am tolerating this part of you".

Unless you have some sort of genital preference, most lesbians just care that their partner is a woman, so... There's no mismatch in desire at all???

Certainly!

Although I do think the transgender community does somewhat distinguish between dating someone who is cisgender vs non-cis. It's a very different experience, I think. I've heard certain people say that they never want to date anyone who is cisgender because "cisgender people are terrible" (something like that).

Unfortunately, I do think that a good chunk of people do have a genital preference though (even if it's not per-say a deal-breaker), at least based on things I've seen floating through NSFW channels of certain discord channels.

I've heard of gay transmen running into this problem a lot... I think based on word-of-mouth, lesbian transwomen probably have it a little easier on the dating scene.

 

[bafflinghaze]

I was searching around since I was curious, but it appears that there are communities where LGBT authors and readers frequently post stories.

Ohh, where?? ?

Since I only read fantasy LGBT+ fiction, I find that the lines between "male-orientated" and "female-orientated" are actually very blurred. I've read some very cliche BL-like novels written by men, and some really super gay fantasy fiction written by women.

I've always been meaning to try the fiction written by and for queer men, however... They always seem to have a cover with some bland white dude with washboard abs smouldering into the camera and. It makes me feel like it's going to be a generic Mills & Boons, only gay and "gritty manly".
So I've just never quite overcome my aversion to it.

Oh, I think I've seen some of those "gritty manly" gay fiction covers lol. I think I remember initially thinking all the male-body descriptions of characters in BL to be over the top, except in gay [adult] romance it's just as detailed. But it's been a long time since I read things specific by-and-for queer men, the closest I get is reading M/M fic written by transmen and nonbinary people, which I'm sure has a different flavour yet again.

If you have any recs (including off this site/paid stories), please drop them here

 

[yansusustories]

I think I remember initially thinking all the male-body descriptions of characters in BL to be over the top, except in gay [adult] romance it's just as detailed.

Honestly, I always wonder if this might have less to do with the gay part and more to do with the romance part. Like, for most people, appearance is really important in finding a partner and romance stories are often self-inserts to a certain degree. So people might (no matter the gender and sexuality) prefer to have descriptions of really attractive people in there. At least that's what I thought of

 

[bafflinghaze]

Honestly, I always wonder if this might have less to do with the gay part and more to do with the romance part. Like, for most people, appearance is really important in finding a partner and romance stories are often self-inserts to a certain degree. So people might (no matter the gender and sexuality) prefer to have descriptions of really attractive people in there. At least that's what I thought of

OH that suggests that my confusion was due to me being ace

Okay, that makes sense now

 

[minacia]

Since I only read fantasy LGBT+ fiction, I find that the lines between "male-orientated" and "female-orientated" are actually very blurred. I've read some very cliche BL-like novels written by men, and some really super gay fantasy fiction written by women.

I've always been meaning to try the fiction written by and for queer men, however... They always seem to have a cover with some bland white dude with washboard abs smouldering into the camera and. It makes me feel like it's going to be a generic Mills & Boons, only gay and "gritty manly".
So I've just never quite overcome my aversion to it.

I've always wondered if there was a true difference between the type of men preferred by women and gay men.

I mean, there's the obvious bara vs. yaoi dichotomy, and it's usually presumed that women prefer the bishie aesthetic.

I feel like I read somewhere that a lot of fudanshis are straight or bi, and a minority are exclusively homosexual. I dug out this blog post, and the author speculates that BL as a genre typically runs counter against many norms in masculinity. In other words, having a more feminine "bishie" character can increase the appeal to heterosexual fudanshis, both in relationship dynamics and other things.

The uke/shou dynamic is much more closely reminiscent of a heterosexual relationship, in other words.

Ohh, where?? ?

It's a struggle to find stuff.

I think based on my cursory experiences with LGBT spaces, a lot of them really hate anime/manga. Most of the fudanshi that I know are either bi or straight, and gay acquaintances that I knew seemed to hate being asked whether they liked BL.

Queerbooksforteens has an extensive list of YA LGBT literature (published in print), but at that point we've lost the entire Asian and fanfiction tilt.

Other than that, I found this site that lists a bunch sites that host gay fiction.

I've never really explored too much of this genre of fiction, though. And I think gay porn might be different from gay fiction.

I've read a little bit of some gay coming-out stories, but my impression of these was that they're a lot less focused on appearance than the experience of being gay. The characters were far less idealized (certainly not to the bishie-god level), and focused substantially more on the experiences of being gay.

 

[AliceShiki]

BL just means that it's story with romance between two men. Just that.

Stuff like Bara are subgenres of it. You can request for tags for them if you so desire, though I dunno if it would be accepted because I think there aren't many people using it.

M/M romance and gay romantic fiction are basically synonyms to BL OTOH, so adding them would be pointless. It's not happening.

 

[yansusustories]

OH that suggests that my confusion was due to me being ace

Okay, that makes sense now

Haha, I know exactly how you feel I really love romance (I'm a sucker for the warm-fuzzy fee-fees everyone has ) as a genre but this is a part I'm not that interested in either so when writing, I often ignore it as well. I have to force myself to include it or I might really end up with a novel without any description of the character's at all

gay acquaintances that I knew seemed to hate being asked whether they liked BL

In regard to this, I have been wondering if this might not be because of stereotypes more than anything. Like, there are certainly stereotyped relationships in BL stories but I think on the other hand people also have a stereotype of what BL is. I think lots of BL novels nowadays are more varied than the older ones but that isn't really wide-spread yet and the ones who come across these novels are the people who have read BL for quite some time. The readers that just start will be pointed to the 'classics' which often, unfortunately, means the stereotypical stuff with often even unhealthy dynamics in the relationships.

 

[minacia]

BL just means that it's story with romance between two men. Just that.

Stuff like Bara are subgenres of it. You can request for tags for them if you so desire, though I dunno if it would be accepted because I think there aren't many people using it.

M/M romance and gay romantic fiction are basically synonyms to BL OTOH, so adding them would be pointless. It's not happening.

I sort of agree that I don’t think there is that much use to add a bara tag.

That said, I do kind of wish we had an LGBT genre, for fiction that addresses LGBT themes more seriously or is targeted to an LGBT audience.

There is a big difference in stories that treat LGBT issues seriously (I.e. transgender tag) versus stories that treat it light-heartedly, like in some GB, BL, or GL novels. Given that a third of of SH seems to self-identify as LGBT, I wonder if there’s value in dedicating a genre to it.

I know some people might call it redundant, but it is genuinely informative and helpful for some readers, and less redundant than the existing adult/smut genres.

Like yansusu mentioned, BL has a powerful negative reputation among the LGBT gay community. I think there are a lot of gay authors who would instinctively recoil against classifying their own story as “BL”, since the genre has long meant something relatively damaging to actual LGBT people.

Haha, I know exactly how you feel I really love romance (I'm a sucker for the warm-fuzzy fee-fees everyone has ) as a genre but this is a part I'm not that interested in either so when writing, I often ignore it as well. I have to force myself to include it or I might really end up with a novel without any description of the character's at all


In regard to this, I have been wondering if this might not be because of stereotypes more than anything. Like, there are certainly stereotyped relationships in BL stories but I think on the other hand people also have a stereotype of what BL is. I think lots of BL novels nowadays are more varied than the older ones but that isn't really wide-spread yet and the ones who come across these novels are the people who have read BL for quite some time. The readers that just start will be pointed to the 'classics' which often, unfortunately, means the stereotypical stuff with often even unhealthy dynamics in the relationships.

Absolutely! BL as a genre 100% has stereotypes, and it’s hard to convince people that the genre is different now.

That said, I’m also a translator, and jjwxc forces all of its danmei novels to be classified as shou or gong protagonist.

My gay friends seem to really dislike that structure, so the continual reliance one uke/seme dynamics will probably keep them averse to BL.

 

[Moonpearl]

Oh, I think I've seen some of those "gritty manly" gay fiction covers lol. I think I remember initially thinking all the male-body descriptions of characters in BL to be over the top, except in gay [adult] romance it's just as detailed. But it's been a long time since I read things specific by-and-for queer men, the closest I get is reading M/M fic written by transmen and nonbinary people, which I'm sure has a different flavour yet again.

Honestly, I always wonder if this might have less to do with the gay part and more to do with the romance part. Like, for most people, appearance is really important in finding a partner and romance stories are often self-inserts to a certain degree. So people might (no matter the gender and sexuality) prefer to have descriptions of really attractive people in there. At least that's what I thought of

Descriptions are definitely something you want. If the love interest isn't attractive to you, or can't be made to sound attractive to you, then the romance doesn't really have much draw or tension.
It's not always just about the sexual appeal of the physical. It's the soft qualities too, like how beautiful their eyes look in the light, or how the touch of their hand is special to the MC because it's theirs.

That said, the kind of descriptions that pop up in Mills & Boons type novels are kind of trashy. I'm reading a wlw romance story right now that, despite looking like an ordinary fantasy romance, turned out to be something like this.
Even though I'm supposed to be the target audience, the way the MC keeps eying up the love interest's body feels extremely forced, uncomfortable, and frankly kind of male-gazey. I'm ready to delete it from my Kindle, it makes me feel so nauseous.

I don't even like uber masculine men, so I feel like gritty Mills & Boons for queer men is going to be even worse for me.

If you have any recs (including off this site/paid stories), please drop them here

For good gay fantasy romance? I don't know any aimed at queer men, but...

Try "Wicked Gentlemen" by Ginn Hale. It's a steampunk crime mystery that follows a sarcastic demon (or demon's descendant, rather) and an apparently upstanding police officer with some secrets of his own. It's one of my absolute favourites, and I've read it countless times.

Lynn Flewelling's "The Nightrunner" series is also a classic. It starts with "Luck in the Shadows", and is a very long-running fantasy series with more focus on the plot than the romance.
The MC is rescued by his love interest and recruited by him into a spy organisation. With a lot of setting to explore and secrets to unravel, they soon become tangled up in magic they don't really understand and involved in one of those infamous Great Prophecies.
Every arc lasts about 3 books. I binged to the 7th before burning out, but the first 3 are definitely my favourite.

There's also "Litha's Constant Whim" by Amy Lane, which is an erotic novella. It's about a faerie called Whim who can only visit the land of humans once per year, on the night of Litha. (If I remember correctly.)
He meets a troubled young human one night and, over the course of many years, they have a passionate, powerful and bittersweet romance.
(The second half has some heartbreaking and mature themes, but... It does have a happy ending.)

Also, if you like comics, I highly recommend:
"The Prince and the Swan" - This is an action-fantasy adaptation of Swan Lake. In addition to the usual plotline of a prince being trapped by an evil sorcerer at a lake as a swan, there's a lot of mystery surrounding how and why Rothbart trapped Odet, who Odet was before, and why his entire kingdom apparently disappeared into thin air.
They're having uploading issues right now, but there's plenty of comic to read while they get it sorted out.

"Novae" - A fantasy romance about an enthusiastic astronomer and a mute necromancer in the 17th century. While their sweet romance blossoms, murders happening around Paris threaten to draw them into a twisted mystery investigation.
(This one also comes with a tragic prequel, in which the astronomer falls in love with a charming genderfluid actor.)

I've always wondered if there was a true difference between the type of men preferred by women and gay men.

I mean, there's the obvious bara vs. yaoi dichotomy, and it's usually presumed that women prefer the bishie aesthetic.

I feel like I read somewhere that a lot of fudanshis are straight or bi, and a minority are exclusively homosexual. I dug out this blog post, and the author speculates that BL as a genre typically runs counter against many norms in masculinity. In other words, having a more feminine "bishie" character can increase the appeal to heterosexual fudanshis, both in relationship dynamics and other things.

The uke/shou dynamic is much more closely reminiscent of a heterosexual relationship, in other words.

There are definitely men who like femme men, though - otherwise they would all be single.

I've read a little bit of some gay coming-out stories, but my impression of these was that they're a lot less focused on appearance than the experience of being gay. The characters were far less idealized (certainly not to the bishie-god level), and focused substantially more on the experiences of being gay.

You can't really judge LGBT+ fiction based on coming out stories, though. Everyone knows those are like the worst kind.

Most people I know are dying for other stories to be told, other genres to be explored, just anything but the same old tired misery story played on repeat.

Once you go back into normal LGBT+ fiction, you'll find the fantasy and the idealism coming straight back.

I sort of agree that I don’t think there is that much use to add a bara tag.

That said, I do kind of wish we had an LGBT genre, for fiction that addresses LGBT themes more seriously or is targeted to an LGBT audience.

It seems to a BL-only problem, though. Creating a tag like that would put pressure on GL to try and differentiate between works for real LGBT+ people and works for everyone and, well... Everyone reads everything really, so it would be extremely weird and forced.

 

[minacia]

Everyone knows those are like the worst kind.

Oh nuuu, I like them! XD

I guess read too much trans/nb stuff and really enjoy it when the author takes a serious look at it. It’s sort of like how a majority of the trans fics deal with “egg” protagonists who slowly figure out their identities over time.

But then again, I don’t read/write enough BL/GL to really make informative comments here. Out of the two BL stories I write, I have a poor high school cinnabun who struggles with sexuality and another omegaverse one who hates his female anatomy.

I mean, I like that stuff but it’s probably just me. @.@ I’m never quite sure if it fits squarely in the BL genre because I don’t tend to read or write stereotypical danmei.

That said, you definitely bring up a lot of good points, and I’m never sure what’s the best way to approach things!

 

[Aoibh]

(And also how it seems to be a love/hate genre lol)

..

Unlike yuri >:(

(accidentally doubled boxed you, my bad I don't know how to delete it.)

 

[Moonpearl]

Oh nuuu, I like them! XD

I guess read too much trans/nb stuff and really enjoy it when the author takes a serious look at it. It’s sort of like how a majority of the trans fics deal with “egg” protagonists who slowly figure out their identities over time.

But then again, I don’t read/write enough BL/GL to really make informative comments here. Out of the two BL stories I write, I have a poor high school cinnabun who struggles with sexuality and another omegaverse one who hates his female anatomy.

I mean, I like that stuff but it’s probably just me. @.@ I’m never quite sure if it fits squarely in the BL genre because I don’t tend to read or write stereotypical danmei.

That said, you definitely bring up a lot of good points, and I’m never sure what’s the best way to approach things!

Ah... They're not for me, personally. I find them to be condescending, since they insist on trapping us in this teenage-like "coming out" experience forever, and they just don't reflect my experiences as a queer woman. My life is about much, much more than just gaining the approval of straight people.

I don't mind having characters who are struggling with their gender or sexuality, but I hate it when that's the focus. I like to have them balanced out by characters who are already very sure about their identities, mixed with characters who are much more able to adapt and go with the flow.
Like my friend's character who wasn't aware he was a spirit now coming to terms with the pansexuality it brings, while being surrounded by extremely loud, confident, experienced spirits who can be flippant about it.
Or her really sheltered, raised-by-the-church character finding himself among magical queers who are older than the church itself and just... Freaking out. But being totally alone in that experience. But not in a lonely way, you know?

If someone has to come to terms with their sexuality/gender in my kind of fiction, it has to happen with a sturdy queer-positive environment nearby.

Unlike yuri >:(

(accidentally doubled boxed you, my bad I don't know how to delete it.)

That's because yuri brings world peace. ?

Honestly, though, this is the first site I've found (outside of yuri dedicated sites) where yuri is more popular than BL. Usually BL dwarves GL.

It's kind of refreshing.

 

[Aoibh]

That's because yuri brings world peace. ?

I think the majority of your lovers are just cuckolds, BL is way more adorable than yuri. Yuri is just tasteless, BL has more passion to it.

As an avid reader of the gender swap theme, it's bombarded with GL or GL subplot, and lacking ftm genderswap. It makes me cry ?

 

[Moonpearl]

I think the majority of your lovers are just cuckolds, BL is way more adorable than yuri. Yuri is just tasteless, BL has more passion to it.

As an avid reader of the gender swap theme, it's bombarded with GL or GL subplot, and lacking ftm genderswap. It makes me cry ?

... You know, the one I thing I always hate about the "yuri vs yaoi" debate is the judgy, nasty crap fujoshi say about queer women under the guise of talking about a genre.

Relationships between women are plenty adorable, deep and passionate, thank you very much.

 

[Aoibh]

... You know, the one I thing I always hate about the "yuri vs yaoi" debate is the judgy, nasty crap fujoshi say about queer women under the guise of talking about a genre.

Relationships between women are plenty adorable, deep and passionate, thank you very much.

Well I don't know what they say, since I don't read their comments.

All I know is that BL always gets shtted on.

 

[AliceShiki]

I sort of agree that I don’t think there is that much use to add a bara tag.

That said, I do kind of wish we had an LGBT genre, for fiction that addresses LGBT themes more seriously or is targeted to an LGBT audience.

There is a big difference in stories that treat LGBT issues seriously (I.e. transgender tag) versus stories that treat it light-heartedly, like in some GB, BL, or GL novels. Given that a third of of SH seems to self-identify as LGBT, I wonder if there’s value in dedicating a genre to it.

I know some people might call it redundant, but it is genuinely informative and helpful for some readers, and less redundant than the existing adult/smut genres.

Like yansusu mentioned, BL has a powerful negative reputation among the LGBT gay community. I think there are a lot of gay authors who would instinctively recoil against classifying their own story as “BL”, since the genre has long meant something relatively damaging to actual LGBT people.

You are forgetting the fact 90% of the people using the site will never touch the forums and as such would have 0 clue what the difference between a theoretical LGBT genre and a BL genre is... Especially without genre definitions set up by the site, because they are basically the same if the site doesn't make an effort to make them different.

 

[minacia]

You are forgetting the fact 90% of the people using the site will never touch the forums and as such would have 0 clue what the difference between a theoretical LGBT genre and a BL genre is... Especially without genre definitions set up by the site, because they are basically the same if the site doesn't make an effort to make them different.

Mhhh I think on most western sites, LGBT fiction is genuinely classified differently from BL. I think it’s only in the bubble of Asian novels (specifically NU) that people would think it’s the same thing.

Ordinarily, we would say that BL is actually the more niche term that is imported from Japanese. Over the years, it has primarily been characterized by yaoi and shounen ai, later merged with danmei for the similarity of content.

In contrast, in the Western world, gay fiction has just been called gay fiction (or slash in the context of fanfiction), which is plainly visible on Amazon and other booksellers. The subject matter tends to be more targeted towards LGBT audiences. “Boys Love” isn’t a term that is used, and is largely taken to be something else entirely.

The difference between the two is about as different as “cartoons” and “anime”.

If you went to someone and said that Spongebob or Marvel comics is an “anime”, you would definitely get a lot of strange looks.

In the end, I guess my resistance stems from the fact that we’re basically asking Western LGBT authors to classify themselves under the Japanese term that carries a lot of historical baggage — which frankly I think some gay authors might be particularly reluctant to use since their idea of the BL genre means different things to them. (at least, based on the gay men I’ve talked to)

To use an extreme analogy, it’s sort of like asking transgender authors to classify their work as “Trap” on an anime website... which a lot of authors may be unwilling to do.

 

[minacia]

To go further on what BL means to most people in the Western World, I feel like a google search for "boys love" is very telling:

The top urban dictionary result:

Boys' love (BL) is the common term used by the publishing industry to categorize works focusing on male/male relationships marketed at women. Historically these works were referred to as June, but most commercial works are now called BL. It is used as an umbrella term for:

-both commercial and amateur works
-works with no sex
-works with sex
-doujinshi about adolescents with little or no sex
-works in all types of media - manga, anime, novels, games, and drama CDs
-characters of all ages (not limited to 'boys')
-related terms such as yaoi, shounen ai, tanbi, June, and original June

While early fans of BL were probably fans of doujinshi, most Japanese fans on the net these days appear to be fans of commercial BL work - there are over a hundred such works published every month, more than two-thirds of them novels and the rest manga. BL novels are immensely popular - the number of novels published each month outnumbers pmanga tankoubon by about 2 to 1.

In short, regardless of what definition we use here (or at NU), the broader English-speaking general public will generally consider BL to be synonymous with yaoi.

 

[Queenfisher]

To go further on what BL means to most people in the Western World, I feel like a google search for "boys love" is very telling:

View attachment 5145

The top urban dictionary result:



In short, regardless of what definition we use here (or at NU), the broader English-speaking general public will generally consider BL to be synonymous with yaoi.

I support your points 100%!!!

Alas, we've already had this conversation here -- https://forum.scribblehub.com/threa...ka-m-f-romance-genre-or-tag.3388/page-2#posts

And our faction lost... not because we didn't make strong arguments per se -- but because nothing can change before we define genres and tags on SH, and nobody is willing to do that.

@Moonpearl was making a categorized tag list -- https://forum.scribblehub.com/members/moonpearl.155/#profile-post-5549 But she has other commitments to take care of atm, so that is not urgent in any way. I'm afraid before that, nothing might change on the site at all even if people's opinions can change about what BL does or does not entail.

No, no, no! You are doing me dirty here! My definitions were:

And to me, two guys are still a set of males (I only see it as not gendered if it's used to directly address a crowd 'cause context matters; one guy, two guys, three guys, ... any set number of guys, really, are all male to me) and I called it a relationship already anyway! No change there!
But you can still have the supposedly 'new' definition and assign other values to the terms however much you like

Okay! I accept your peace offer, then! ( ).

The issue is -- as I told you before -- you and I aren't disagreeing. We are talking parallel to each other on different floors of the same building. I would not accept your definition (identifies as male) because, for me, it's too narrow and restrictive, while you won't accept mine because it is too wide.

The "guys" in that second definition are much wider than your original "male" and especially wider than the "identifies as male". It is a bit narrower than my "sets of attributes" but I don't mind that. Ultimately, your definition goes for precision but has the downside of being exclusive, whereas my definitions always go for "catch-all" and being as inclusive as possible. It also has its downsides, but so would any definition.

When I originally defined what the genre meant to me in the other thread, I was thinking exactly about this. And I might have a different idea of this because I happen to be aro but to me, 'bromance' is actually love. I am currently also reading a BL story about two brothers over on NU and I realized that I likely wouldn't even have needed an actual BL aspect to enjoy it because those warm fuzzy feelings between them were already love without actually entering a typical BL relationship.

I agree with that, 100%. I dislike restrictions in general. But... like some of the arguments down below (to minacia and Moonpearl) -- wanting more diverse and subversive and creative stories isn't feasible... Someone has to read them, and the rules of the market would usually imply that nope. Almost nobody will. Unless we write BL the "appropriate" way -- we might not get any audience at all who would want to read it.

And that breaks my heart...

It seems to a BL-only problem, though. Creating a tag like that would put pressure on GL to try and differentiate between works for real LGBT+ people and works for everyone and, well... Everyone reads everything really, so it would be extremely weird and forced.

This is the second time this comes to my attention -- where BL and GL's goals are put against each other. I.e. if we ever create a distinction between LGBT+ stories in BL, then GL would be affected negatively and therefore, BL shouldn't. Does it really have to work like that? It's so frustrating... Last time we came to this conclusion in the discussion, I decided that -- okay, since this site (SH) is unique in this way that GL here is much more popular than BL then nobody would really care what happens to BL.

But that was before I saw just how hated BL is here in minacia's Survey. And not because people who might want BL don't come here -- but because, coming here, they don't stay. This site is just not that appealing to any BL fan out there and the majority would just take the look at the front page (minus points) -- then at the BL page (minus a lot of points) -- and leave. Of course BL will never grow here because it is so actively disadvantaged . Partly because the BL front page makes a wrong impression that SH is a BL/yaoi-only site and does not welcome or even acknowledge LGBT+ stories.

That severely limits the already small audience...

Why? First of all -- as I already said in the previous topic -- the term BL is already very fraught and contaminated with certain negative connotations in the eyes of the LGBT+ people. And it is the only term used here.

And second of all, because without the ability to differentiate traditionally BL stories from LGBT+ on sight -- the majority of even the true LGBT+ stories on SH BL ranking would blur into "seeming" like BL due to marketing issues (we have to be able to sell our stories to the audience who IS on the site). Nobody would waste much time on figuring out which story is or isn't BL/bara/danmei/lgbt+/etc. One look -- and they would probably categorize all of them as yaoi in general because it is heavily eastern-themed on the front pages, and like we saw above, Eastern m/m in most people's eyes = traditional BL. Regardless of its actual content.

So really -- is there no way to separate BL on SH from GL somehow? So that they do not influence each other too much? I understand your worries about creating an artificial divide in Yuri stories which are generally not as cleanly split between "m/m fetishism" and "m/m reality". But BL really needs such a split. It halves our audience and also halves all chances of the LGBT+ authors to get noticed because BL would usually dominate them. If such a split can be done without influencing GL too much, that would be great...

But I do not know how to come up with a term for a tag or a separate genre without mentioning LGBT+ somehow. I understand that adding a tag with any combination of LGBT+ in it would invariably make some Yuri writers want to use it as well, which would cause the issue you are talking about...

However, if there is a term for LGBT+-focused m/m that clearly does not influence Yuri in some way -- that would be nice! Does anybody know of one???

Please???

In regard to this, I have been wondering if this might not be because of stereotypes more than anything. Like, there are certainly stereotyped relationships in BL stories but I think on the other hand people also have a stereotype of what BL is. I think lots of BL novels nowadays are more varied than the older ones but that isn't really wide-spread yet and the ones who come across these novels are the people who have read BL for quite some time. The readers that just start will be pointed to the 'classics' which often, unfortunately, means the stereotypical stuff with often even unhealthy dynamics in the relationships.

Absolutely! BL as a genre 100% has stereotypes, and it’s hard to convince people that the genre is different now.

That said, I’m also a translator, and jjwxc forces all of its danmei novels to be classified as shou or gong protagonist.

My gay friends seem to really dislike that structure, so the continual reliance one uke/seme dynamics will probably keep them averse to BL.

This one is one of my biggest BL-related anxieties, actually.

That I -- and by the nature of this discussion you two (and some others) -- are really not representative of the genre or wha it wants or where it moves on to.

Because while I want BL to get rid of stereotypes and all and I am genuinely excited when you say the genre has changed -- but I actually do not believe it did, or that it will in the foreseeable future. Stereotypes of BL that are viewed by most as negative (m/m fetishism) is one of the things that drive this market so heavily. Without them, I'm afraid there won't be much of a genre... >_<.

People who want to read non-fetishized, normalized BL usually graduate from the fetishized ones. By this nature, there are always going to be much more people who read fetishized BL than the non-fetishized one.

I often see this trajectory in readers when I read reviews on NU. New BL-fans usually go through a period of reading very heavily stereotyped BL with heteronormativity, rape, misogyny, etc. And I mean -- I get it. Nothing wrong in indulging in something for fun even if it is disliked by the actual LGBT+ m/m communities. It isn't written for them, after all. The mainstream het romance genre is also plagued with the same problems, so it's not even so much a BL issue as it is the "female demographic preferences in reading about men" issue, I think. (??) Only after the initial exposure, do these NU readers of BL mention that they move on to something new and refreshing after some time, away from the old stereotypes... but some still return to the stereotyped ones just because it's more fun (even though they do sometimes claim they hate it).

In other words -- stereotyped BL keeps getting produced and will always be because that's where the majority of BL audience live and what they enjoy most. (And not just BL but the overarching Romance with a ML catering to female demographic).

So I am afraid that the fact that we are talking about this here is already a bit of a "selective bias" at work. We are using a lot of terminology and philosophizing concepts to discuss BL with, and some of us are very well-versed in LGBT+ terms as well. Are we actually representative of the majority of the genre's readers? Do most people who read BL spend hours discussing its future or its terms and ideologies?

So if we are talking about BL changing for the better... I mean -- on the fringes and the niches? Yes, it probably is. (But so it was in the 00s , too, judging from some of the older topics I found on the Internet ). But does it change overall? I am a little bit afraid that it is not .

If you can give me hope about it -- please do!!! But just seeing which trends usually get ahead and are MUCH more popular than others in nowadays-written BL on most sites I frequent, I am a bit depressed and pessimistic about it.

(And note: I am not against fetishized stories in BL (or anywhere else per se). I read them myself, lol. But I also want diversity and a lot of choice of what I can read at any moment. I want a supermarket of ideas where there are perfectly categorized and managed aisles and everyone can find exactly what they want in an easily accessible manner. So far, it takes TOO much digging in the mainstream BL to find everything that can cater to me at all times. And some products are literally unavailable . Or at least un-findable. So it's not a supermarket of BL ideas yet. I hope, one day, it will be ^^).