Non-English words/phrases in fantasy.

[Irl_Rat]

I've been doing some worldbuilding and I'm very conflicted on whether to use non-English words for different cultural groups to provide atmosphere. I, personally, get pulled out of my immersion if an author uses non-English words for different cultures though some words don't seem to affect me. I don't think many people share the same opinion but I am curious.

One of my big gripe with this is that the non-English words have an English equivalent. For instance, hetaireia, baghatur, and druzhina can be translated as companion(yes I am ignoring a fair amount of nuance, but let's go with companion for now). In a fantasy setting, these would very likely be used to describe a sort of non enslaved retainer of a powerful individual, most likely a bodyguard but able to serve other military and civil functions as well. Had this individual come from the setting's equivalent of Ingerland or Croissant-land, they'd be called a knight. All of which can be classified as retainers. I will admit that I am being very reductionist with this, but this idiocy is what pulls me out of my immersion.

I also want to address that the biggest issue with using non-English words is probably lazy worldbuilding. I've read enough that it's just used to make a place sound foreign, but the details that make those places foreign are either never mentioned or lazily ripped out of a Wikipedia article.

Anyways, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Samurai is a knight. Katana is a curved sword.

 

[AmeronWerschrux]

When you use German words for a move, you know it's the real thing.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

Abso-F-ing-lutely

 

[melchi]

Lazy world building is not a valid critique in my opinion.

If the focus of the story is supposed to be something other than exploring the world than wouldn't overly detailed world building just dilute the main stuff?

The only real risk is that something will be lost in translation. There is a lot of cultural difference between a knight and a samurai. Cataphract is not the same as a mounted ronin.

Anyway, I say the answer is really "it depends"

 

[SRB]

How else I can tell my readers that the character is Russian if not with good old "Suka! Blyat!"?

 

[Irl_Rat]

Lazy world building is not a valid critique in my opinion.

If the focus of the story is supposed to be something other than exploring the world than wouldn't overly detailed world building just dilute the main stuff?

The only real risk is that something will be lost in translation. There is a lot of cultural difference between a knight and a samurai. Cataphract is not the same as a mounted ronin.

Anyway, I say the answer is really "it depends"

Uhhh, I have cancer. I meant to say that when non-English words are used in conjunction with lazy worldbuilding.

Also cataphract is the same as mounted ronin because they probably wouldn't beat a tank ?

 

[Corty]

I used my own native language as an alien language once. Does that count as lazy?

 

[RepresentingDesire]

Dies ist der Weg zum Erfolg.

 

[greyblob]

I do not mind it. It's also nice if I can pronounce it. there's this novel where the author names stuff in german and I don't know how the s and a with sguiggly should sound

 

[TheKillingAlice]

Also cataphract is the same as mounted ronin because they probably wouldn't beat a tank ?

I beg to differ. Both of the aforementioned soldiers were known to wield a bow at either some point in history or just regularly in some situations.
There's arrowheads capable of dealing heavy duty damage to a well built tank nowadays. Arrows with those heads attached come at an altitude and speed indetectable to current state of the art tanks. A projectile undetected means it can't be fended off.
Also, don't underestimate the distance even a regular hunting crossbow can shoot a target from.
Therefore in theory, these arrows are better in modern warfare than even a missile htat you can detect from miles away and shoot out of the sky.

I do not mind it. It's also nice if I can pronounce it. there's this novel where the author names stuff in german and I don't know how the s and a with sguiggly should sound

What squiggly to an s or a?

 

[Deleted member 146224]

What squiggly to an s or a?

I'm gonna take a wild guess that it's about scharfes s (ß) and umlaut a (ä)

 

[TheKillingAlice]

I'm gonna take a wild guess that it's about scharfes s (ß) and umlaut a (ä)

I thought about those by default too, I just didn't believe that someone would describe those as "squiggly", so I tossed the thought, and the ß doesn't even look like an "s" per se, so not many know it is one (EDIT because thought process: sure, you would know it's a sort of s when someone explains or you hear it being pronounced like an s of sorts, but the other person said they didn't know how to pronounce it). But you might just be right.

 

[ACertainPassingUser]

I would like if the Author use more borrowed english words or sentences that are translated and taken from the other language into english.

 

[Triskele_Lynx]

I think it works better in a completed novel than a serialized format like this.
If it's a few weeks between chapters, the reader may say, "what does that mean again?" That could hurt worldbuilding more than help it.

 

[ThatTwat3000]

I do not mind it. It's also nice if I can pronounce it. there's this novel where the author names stuff in german and I don't know how the s and a with sguiggly should sound

I don’t mind foreign words, terms, or names, either, but when they start introducing native diacritics—that’s when I start ignoring them because my brain doesn’t understand the pronunciation.

Lech Wałęsa:

It isn’t pronounced Lekh Wall/Vahll Eh Saw? It’s Lekh Vah Weh Sha? Whaat.

 

[Hans.Trondheim]

Digital Extremes, the developer and publisher of the game Warframe, often used non-English words to give names to weapons and equipment in their game. One example is when they named a Warframe's (Titania) weapon "Diwata" (her skill's sword). In Filipino, it is the word for "pixie" and "fairy" (A rough translation, but Diwatas in Flip are fairy-like creatures ranging from the most beautiful to the cutest.). And the game's lore isn't what I would consider 'lazy world building'. (It's one of my standards in game stories)

I, for one, would also use non-English words because that's the very first thing that comes to my mind. It always sticks in my head, so I end up using it...just like how some words came to be.

So yeah, I think that rather than lazy world building, using non-English words in a story can range from being inspired to whatever 'feels right' to the author.

In fact, I'd rather point to the instances where writers that aren't really interested in fleshing their worlds' setting would use English words for terms because it's the easiest to think and understand, and readers are already familiar with it. They can drop all explanations.

 

[Verdant]

When you use German words for a move, you know it's the real thing.

Books need to start using 20+ letter spells lol

 

[3guanoff]

It depends. I've seen some very good novels inventing their own fantasy languages. I love those. Or author's using their mother tongue or languages from cultures they understand well in a suitable setting.

If you have knock-off cultivator protagonist without a transmigrator/reincarnator background running around in knock-off Xianxia land calling the gods kamis and the swords katana, I will not take your story seriously.
Or if your antagonist is knock-off Russian but the only thing Russian about him is his occasional use of "blyat"...

Same goes for any culture. Make an effort beyond opening a dictionary and picking a word that sounds good. If you want to throw all Asians, Europeans, and Africans into one pot, at least make it an alternate universe with pan asian, pan european, and pan african empires.
Otherwise, I will get the impression the author might confuse India and the Philippines on a map and wonder if Africa is the big island next to New Zealand.

 

[QuercusMalus]

I will take real world languages, apply some 'modifications' so it's similar but different and use that as foreign languages in story. Usually I don't translate it as the reader can either get the jist based on how the mc reacts and replies, or is as clueless as the character trying to figure out what's going on.

Below is an example of the first:

“Podívej se na toho osamělého ptáčka.”
“Vypadá chladně, měli bychom ji zahřát”
“Udržíme tu děvku dobrou a teplou…”
Morgan heard the voices but it took her a moment to realize they were real, and not just part of the feverish nightmares. She struggled awake just as a hand closed on her jaw and squeezed.
“Buď dobrá děvka a všichni si to užijeme, zkus cokoliv a budeme si to užívat jen my.”
Morgan opened her eyes and was nose to nose with a man, one grinning at her with lecherous hunger and rotten teeth on full display.
“But I’m not a good whore.” Her words were a whisper.

I don't need to translate it. The first part she is mostly asleep for, and only vaguely aware, and the last sentence, based on her response, you know what he was telling her. But this is all done for adding depth and realism to the world.
From a world building sense, it doesn't make sense that a set of separate groups, some pretty isolated, would all share a common language, especially when communicating amongst themselves. But as a writer you have to balance that with clearly communicating the story. I much prefer it for large sections that are all in a non-english language to be written in English with an author note that the entirety is being spoken in X language, vs each section of dialogue having a 'click for translation' button.​