Magic and Logic Why They Can't Coexist(?)

[FanficFrenzy]

I am convinced that logic and illogic cannot coexist. If there is even one illogical phenomenon in a system, it violates all logic. The authors' attempts to make magic logical seem absurd to me. If magic becomes logical, it is no longer magic, but science.

The essence of magic is the violation of logic. If there is even one violation of logic, it means that magic by its very nature cannot be logical. When authors try to create logic for magic, they are actually making it illogical, for this is contrary to the very concept.

Furthermore, if magic can be explained using scientific principles, it calls into question its status as magic. Ultimately, I believe that authors who seek to make magic logical are acting in the wrong way. If they create a system in which magic works according to logical rules, they lose the uniqueness that makes magic interesting and mysterious.

Thus, magic cannot be logical, and if logic exists, it is no longer magic.

So for me, if you take any story where there is magic, and if there is a soul from our world (I mean the genre of isekai), then it turns out that this soul automatically becomes a frightening creature. it automatically becomes a frightening creature (of course, except for religious or other people far from logic)

Do you think my thoughts are right? (I came to a conclusion while thinking up the novel.)

 

[Vnator]

I've seen some stories treat certain types of magic in such a way that attempting to observe them closely results in it not working anymore, which outright prevents observation. Or even having them work via sheer belief. Whether it's actually science or not doesn't matter because we lack the means of observing and understanding it beyond "it just works"

 

[Kalliel]

Logic doesn't need to be tied to science. Many things in our world don't make sense if you view them from the perspective of someone who lives in another universe in which things work differently.

That's why hypotheses can make sense. That's why thought experiments are often used, even if they assume something unrealistic as a starting point.

 

[John_Owl]

"What is magic but science beyond our present understanding?"
"Sufficiently advanced science is little different from Magic."
"Just because we don't yet know the laws to explain a phenomenon does not necessitate that it be labeled magic."

There are literally dozens of quotes that hint that magic can be logical, even if you don't YET know the laws behind it. before we knew how to measure wind, did wind not exist? before we could measure gravity, did gravity not exist? Before we knew anything, did those things not exist?

Just because we, IRL, don't yet know something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I personally like when authors try to explain HOW a magic works, as it helps my suspension of disbelief to know that it's not just a "magic is magic because magic" system. it has a basis in some form of logic. How does one manipulate fire? They control the oxygen and fuels within the air. How do they do that? via means of some magical spell or maybe because they're able to control some form of energy that exists all around us that we, as the readers, aren't yet privy to. (Like mana, spiritual energy, etc).

 

[RepresentingWrath]

People who want logical magic are nerds who are not talented enough to engage and flourish in real world science. The upper limit of their brain capacity is circle jerking(is this the right term?) how magic can work instead of thinking how to make an interesting and engaging plot and characters.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

if magic can be explained using scientific principles, it calls into question its status as magic.

I think you are confusing "logical" with "natural".

I think it's enough for magic to be some form of "supernatural". But "supernatural" doesn't necessarily mean "illogical".

 

[FanficFrenzy]

That's the thing, if there's this energy, it basically changes from the very beginning the entire reality in which this or that world could be in romnai. Since it will not be able to have the same shape as our world, the creatures will not have the same rules or the same structure, I'm saying that as soon as the author starts to make magic logical, then it will destroy magic. If we assume that magic is some kind of energy that can break the logic, then it can't resemble our world in any way. And all isekaiyy showing a person in our world getting into another world where there is magic will not be logical, having logic and the concept of logic of our world, if another world will be made of the same rules and add magic to them, it will not be logical no matter how the author does not try to explain. Since the name of knowledge about the work of different physical phenomena, any character who has an understanding of it will become invincible by using magic, because if he knows the logic of the basic world, and can use so-called energy to break the same logic, it is illogical in itself, a walking paradox.

"What is magic but science beyond our present understanding?"
"Sufficiently advanced science is little different from Magic."
"Just because we don't yet know the laws to explain a phenomenon does not necessitate that it be labeled magic."

There are literally dozens of quotes that hint that magic can be logical, even if you don't YET know the laws behind it. before we knew how to measure wind, did wind not exist? before we could measure gravity, did gravity not exist? Before we knew anything, did those things not exist?

Just because we, IRL, don't yet know something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I personally like when authors try to explain HOW a magic works, as it helps my suspension of disbelief to know that it's not just a "magic is magic because magic" system. it has a basis in some form of logic. How does one manipulate fire? They control the oxygen and fuels within the air. How do they do that? via means of some magical spell or maybe because they're able to control some form of energy that exists all around us that we, as the readers, aren't yet privy to. (Like mana, spiritual energy, etc).

 

[Alski]

Do you think my thoughts are right? (I came to a conclusion while thinking up the novel.)

No.

 

[TheBestofSome]

In a lot of stories, magic is simply a new system or branch of science, just one made possible by the presence of some element that doesn't exist in the real world, like mana. You could argue that that means it's not magic anymore, which I suppose according to the definition you outlined in your opening post, it's not. But your definition isn't the 'common' definition so far as I can tell.

The Elder Scrolls' Mysticism school of magic sounds like exactly what you describe, though. A deliberately obtuse school that refuses to work according to any ruleset, which means you basically have to be insane to understand it, i.e. to be a master of the school.

 

[FanficFrenzy]

I think you are confusing "logical" with "natural".

I think it's enough for magic to be some form of "supernatural". But "supernatural" doesn't necessarily mean "illogical".

Again, words don't properly convey the meaning, there are no supernatural phenomena, it is only man who classifies “supernatural” phenomena as those that are not natural to him.

 

[John_Owl]

That's the thing, if there's this energy, it basically changes from the very beginning the entire reality in which this or that world could be in romnai. Since it will not be able to have the same shape as our world, the creatures will not have the same rules or the same structure, I'm saying that as soon as the author starts to make magic logical, then it will destroy magic. If we assume that magic is some kind of energy that can break the logic, then it can't resemble our world in any way. And all isekaiyy showing a person in our world getting into another world where there is magic will not be logical, having logic and the concept of logic of our world, if another world will be made of the same rules and add magic to them, it will not be logical no matter how the author does not try to explain. Since the name of knowledge about the work of different physical phenomena, any character who has an understanding of it will become invincible by using magic, because if he knows the logic of the basic world, and can use so-called energy to break the same logic, it is illogical in itself, a walking paradox.

Let me point out electricity. Before we could generate, control, and safely dissipate it, was Electricity illogical? you literally hold it in your hand when you're using your phone. You're using it to see and reply to these right now. You're sending electricity through a rock and forcing it to think. How is that logical?

Fact is, Logic changes. 100 years ago it was logical that women were too irrational to vote. 1000 years ago, it was logical that the universe was earth-centric. 10,000 years ago, it was logical that the great spirits of the rocks made it rain when they were pissed off at Thomas for pissing on a rabbit.

Logic changes with our understanding. This strange new energy isn't logic breaking, it's logic CHANGING. key difference there.

 

[FanficFrenzy]

Let me point out electricity. Before we could generate, control, and safely dissipate it, was Electricity illogical? you literally hold it in your hand when you're using your phone. You're using it to see and reply to these right now. You're sending electricity through a rock and forcing it to think. How is that logical?

Fact is, Logic changes. 100 years ago it was logical that women were too irrational to vote. 1000 years ago, it was logical that the universe was earth-centric. 10,000 years ago, it was logical that the great spirits of the rocks made it rain when they were pissed off at Thomas for pissing on a rabbit.

Logic changes with our understanding. This strange new energy isn't logic breaking, it's logic CHANGING. key difference there.

What I want to say is that when from the basics of existence a being who has a mind and possesses energy that would allow him to break the basic laws of the same world would be different than our world just added to it with energy and where magicians and the like live, I want to say that it would be different in general fundamentally.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

I am convinced that logic and illogic cannot coexist. If there is even one illogical phenomenon in a system, it violates all logic. The authors' attempts to make magic logical seem absurd to me. If magic becomes logical, it is no longer magic, but science.

The essence of magic is the violation of logic. If there is even one violation of logic, it means that magic by its very nature cannot be logical. When authors try to create logic for magic, they are actually making it illogical, for this is contrary to the very concept.

Furthermore, if magic can be explained using scientific principles, it calls into question its status as magic. Ultimately, I believe that authors who seek to make magic logical are acting in the wrong way. If they create a system in which magic works according to logical rules, they lose the uniqueness that makes magic interesting and mysterious.

Thus, magic cannot be logical, and if logic exists, it is no longer magic.

So for me, if you take any story where there is magic, and if there is a soul from our world (I mean the genre of isekai), then it turns out that this soul automatically becomes a frightening creature. it automatically becomes a frightening creature (of course, except for religious or other people far from logic)

Do you think my thoughts are right? (I came to a conclusion while thinking up the novel.)

People like you make me mad. Because what you are saying is the basis of the common dibelief that magical systems cannot make sense, because magic isn't based in reality and is thus something illogical, just as you said. The conclusion of that is that you can do whatever you want, because it's MaGIc, iT DoESn't hAvE tO MAKe SenSe, resulting in people giving not a single shingle about what they are crapping together.

First of all: All Science is logical, but logic doesn't equal science itself. Therefore, your conclusion is already trash. Second: Logic means that the rules are set and kept, therefore if firemagic can burn everything it touches, but only what it's set to burn, but that one time the author needs it, the fire spreads to everything around it anyway, burning down a city, it isn't logical. It doesn't matter if fire naturally spreads, because this one was made of magic and those rules come naturally. For there to be "no logic" it would make it necessary that there are also "no rules". But there have to be rules; it HAS to act and function in a certain manner. For that, "science" isn't necessary, unless the people of the world you are describing have eihter spawned a day earlier or go through life blindfolded. If magic fire doesn't spread, the rule says it doesn't spread, so unless there's a reason for the one time it does spread, it should not spread (to stay with the example made prior).
Saying logic doesn't exist is a fucking lazy excuse to not give a shit about what you are writing. That is my opinion, and I will die on this hill.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

Again, words don't properly convey the meaning, there are no supernatural phenomena, it is only man who classifies “supernatural” phenomena as those that are not natural to him.

I would disagree. Regardless on whether supernatural exists or not, there are very obvious ideas behind what a 'natural phenomena' is and very obvious concepts behind what a 'non-natural phenomena' would be; I not believe there is a good argument that these things are defined subjectively.

If you google search the definition of natural, you will see that is that derived from nature. If you google search the definion of nature, you will see that it is that which pertains to the physical world. Thus, any phenomena caused by a non-physical thing could be classified as supernatural.

 

[FanficFrenzy]

People like you make me mad. Because what you are saying is the basis of the common dibelief that magical systems cannot make sense, because magic isn't based in reality and is thus something illogical, just as you said. The conclusion of that is that you can do whatever you want, because it's MaGIc, iT DoESn't hAvE tO MAKe SenSe, resulting in people giving not a single shingle about what they are crapping together.

First of all: All Science is logical, but logic doesn't equal science itself. Therefore, your conclusion is already trash. Second: Logic means that the rules are set and kept, therefore if firemagic can burn everything it touches, but only what it's set to burn, but that one time the author needs it, the fire spreads to everything around it anyway, burning down a city, it isn't logical. It doesn't matter if fire naturally spreads, because this one was made of magic and those rules come naturally. For there to be "no logic" it would make it necessary that there are also "no rules". But there have to be rules; it HAS to act and function in a certain manner. For that, "science" isn't necessary, unless the people of the world you are describing have eihter spawned a day earlier or go through life blindfolded. If magic fire doesn't spread, the rule says it doesn't spread, so unless there's a reason for the one time it does spread, it should not spread (to stay with the example made prior).
Saying logic doesn't exist is a fucking lazy excuse to not give a shit about what you are writing. That is my opinion, and I will die on this hill.

I came to this conclusion because most of the worlds in the novels are similar to ours, and I showed my mind to understand and realize that. And to make people understand me, not to make anyone unhappy.

 

[John_Owl]

What I want to say is that when from the basics of existence a being who has a mind and possesses energy that would allow him to break the basic laws of the same world would be different than our world just added to it with energy and where magicians and the like live, I want to say that it would be different in general fundamentally.

You're comparing a world that has this energy to our world's history. I do agree that if they're on earth and can suddenly use magic, that's wrong. But if there's some great event that spreads the energy, or if they go to another world that has had it's own entire history, that's fine.

Most isekai take someone from our world and send them to another world. Their body is either changed fundamentally to allow the use of this energy *OR* magic and its energy is a tool that one merely needs to know how to use, no different from a saw or hammer or nail.

In this other world, magic and its energies have existed since the dawn of existence. so, when comapred to itself, someone being capable of using said energy is no different from someone learning how to swing a hammer. When comapred to itself, it is self-consistent. It is logical to it's own world. You cannot use our world logics to say that another world isn't logical. it's a different universe with it's own laws and physics and chemistry.

Let's look at FMA. Our world doesn't have alchemy. their world does. they're geniuses with alchemy in their world. they come here, they can't magically still use it. They're powerless. this is actually an EXCELLENT example because it DOES compare our world and our logic to their world and their logic.

 

[Corty]

People like you make me mad. Because what you are saying is the basis of the common dibelief that magical systems cannot make sense, because magic isn't based in reality and is thus something illogical, just as you said. The conclusion of that is that you can do whatever you want, because it's MaGIc, iT DoESn't hAvE tO MAKe SenSe, resulting in people giving not a single shingle about what they are crapping together.

First of all: All Science is logical, but logic doesn't equal science itself. Therefore, your conclusion is already trash. Second: Logic means that the rules are set and kept, therefore if firemagic can burn everything it touches, but only what it's set to burn, but that one time the author needs it, the fire spreads to everything around it anyway, burning down a city, it isn't logical. It doesn't matter if fire naturally spreads, because this one was made of magic and those rules come naturally. For there to be "no logic" it would make it necessary that there are also "no rules". But there have to be rules; it HAS to act and function in a certain manner. For that, "science" isn't necessary, unless the people of the world you are describing have eihter spawned a day earlier or go through life blindfolded. If magic fire doesn't spread, the rule says it doesn't spread, so unless there's a reason for the one time it does spread, it should not spread (to stay with the example made prior).
Saying logic doesn't exist is a fucking lazy excuse to not give a shit about what you are writing. That is my opinion, and I will die on this hill.

I want to kiss you.

Exactly.

 

[FanficFrenzy]

You're comparing a world that has this energy to our world's history. I do agree that if they're on earth and can suddenly use magic, that's wrong. But if there's some great event that spreads the energy, or if they go to another world that has had it's own entire history, that's fine.

Most isekai take someone from our world and send them to another world. Their body is either changed fundamentally to allow the use of this energy *OR* magic and its energy is a tool that one merely needs to know how to use, no different from a saw or hammer or nail.

In this other world, magic and its energies have existed since the dawn of existence. so, when comapred to itself, someone being capable of using said energy is no different from someone learning how to swing a hammer. When comapred to itself, it is self-consistent. It is logical to it's own world. You cannot use our world logics to say that another world isn't logical. it's a different universe with it's own laws and physics and chemistry.

Let's look at FMA. Our world doesn't have alchemy. their world does. they're geniuses with alchemy in their world. they come here, they can't magically still use it. They're powerless. this is actually an EXCELLENT example because it DOES compare our world and our logic to their world and their logic.

But why is the basic structure of the other world the same as ours?

 

[TheBestofSome]

So if I'm reading this correctly, OP's problem isn't actually the magic at all, it's that worlds with magic are still so similar to our own. Because OP believes that magic existing in a world should fundamentally change the way that world develops.

If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

 

[FanficFrenzy]

So if I'm reading this correctly, OP's problem isn't actually the magic at all, it's that worlds with magic are still so similar to our own. Because OP believes that magic existing in a world should fundamentally change the way that world develops.

If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

Here thanks, that's exactly the problem, in a world where there's one more thing that fudamentalana on a universal scale wouldn't be the same as ours. That is the main problem is that such worlds are similar to ours and there is also water, it flows from the top to the bottom under gravity, so there are already rules there that are in our world, and there is also magic there that can break it....