is this considered "crossing the line"?

[CheertheSecond]

So one of the older threads I made drew up a conclusion that there is a certain moral line that once a character crosses they would forever irredeemable.


With the rise of multiple rape protags, I have come to wonder would raping be considered a moral event horizon?

So I got 2 scenarios in need of answer. The first one is very general with no certain setting while the latter is more specific.

---

First one, the character would be a perfectly good human being if he didn't like to rape that much. He loves the helplessness of his victims while they struggled and always failed to repel his attempt. It was like ecstasy to him seeing his victim breaking down. and submitted to their ill fate.

---

Second one, he got a wife once. He loved her stubborn personalities. He loved even more the moment she lost to him be it in a mundane debate or a ideology discussion. Their relationship didn't last long.

After 7 months, they divorced. She joined a group of rebel to fight against the oppression of the government. He was and had always been a militant. Long story short, she died in an operation.

Not having her by his side made him realised how much he desired her company.

10 years, the government was weakened, and they agreed to the change of the rebel force. A mutually beneficial political contract between two sides. He went rogue and fought against the newly normalised government.

During one of his raid, he caught two special operatives of the gov. They were twin, and very much like his wife, appearance wise. They were boys however.

Let's just say he was not in the right mind at the moment and was in need of the touch of his former wife. Hence, he took both of them for himself and locked them away, keeping the treasures to himself and never let it be lost.

He trained them well through some form of brutalisation done to their twin brother should the other dared to disobey.

---

The question. Could these protags be made likeable? I mean yeah they did something not good to innocent characters but it was just one of their negative traits. Could it be overshadowed by their more positive traits?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Depends on a reader.

 

[RepresentingPride]

Rise of rape protags?? How? You may find some who find this "likeable" but for me it's not

 

[Darkcrow.]

It depends on the author actually. I mean the protagonist of 'The Prince of Thorns' Is a borderline Psychopath. He have committed rapes, Murders and torture without any remorse. But you can't help but like him, I mean I was routing for him for the entire series.

 

[Tempokai]

It's not "crossing the line", but both of them are very unlikable. First one needs to go to mental hospital for the sadism treatment, while second one probably too, but to his his yandere tendencies

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Not likeable for me.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

So one of the older threads I made drew up a conclusion that there is a certain moral line that once a character crosses they would forever irredeemable.


With the rise of multiple rape protags, I have come to wonder would raping be considered a moral event horizon?

So I got 2 scenarios in need of answer. The first one is very general with no certain setting while the latter is more specific.

---

First one, the character would be a perfectly good human being if he didn't like to rape that much. He loves the helplessness of his victims while they struggled and always failed to repel his attempt. It was like ecstasy to him seeing his victim breaking down. and submitted to their ill fate.

---

Second one, he got a wife once. He loved her stubborn personalities. He loved even more the moment she lost to him be it in a mundane debate or a ideology discussion. Their relationship didn't last long.

After 7 months, they divorced. She joined a group of rebel to fight against the oppression of the government. He was and had always been a militant. Long story short, she died in an operation.

Not having her by his side made him realised how much he desired her company.

10 years, the government was weakened, and they agreed to the change of the rebel force. A mutually beneficial political contract between two sides. He went rogue and fought against the newly normalised government.

During one of his raid, he caught two special operatives of the gov. They were twin, and very much like his wife, appearance wise. They were boys however.

Let's just say he was not in the right mind at the moment and was in need of the touch of his former wife. Hence, he took both of them for himself and locked them away, keeping the treasures to himself and never let it be lost.

He trained them well through some form of brutalisation done to their twin brother should the other dared to disobey.

---

The question. Could these protags be made likeable? I mean yeah they did something not good to innocent characters but it was just one of their negative traits. Could it be overshadowed by their more positive traits?

Boring question, rape in a real-world setting always makes you a piece of shit. Of course its a dang line. Moral-wise, its evil, mate, regardless of circumstance. Thats not up for debate. A more interesting situation is this: Raping a bitch to save her life.

You see that alot in chinese novels in particular. "Oh no, the heroine consumed an aphrodisiac/poison that will kill her if i dont fuck her silly." Or "oh no the heroine and I have been captured by this weird ancient inheritance and it wants us to fuck each other silly or else we'll die from the errant powers about to consume us."

like, either you do it with "good intentions" or you BOTH do it "to survive" or are even not in your right minds and are forced to by some third party/power.

Either fucking way except for that last situation, its rape and yall scum. Say you do get faced with a situation where you need to rape a bitch to save her life. She probably gonna hate you. How would you even prove that you did it to save the bitch? she wouldn't believe you so easily. Then you get faced with jail time cuz she might report your ass--say MIGHT because a lot of rape cases are not reported. Then boom, you go to prison and get shanked cuz no one like a rapist

There's no benefit to saving her. BUT its also not moral to let her die. Its akin to murder. Murder by inaction. Really doubt any higher power is gonna give a fuck about the circumstance, so either way you are still gonna be sinning whether you save the bitch or not. Thing is, you probably wont be facing any kind of backlash from society for letting her die. Even in a xianxia setting, you can play ignorant. So it mainly boils down to what you can live with. Can you live with letting a bitch die or not? If not, can you live with the possible aforementioned consequences of saving her?

 

[Ellieporter]

 

[RepresentingCaution]

It depends on my mood.

 

[Succubiome]

So one of the older threads I made drew up a conclusion that there is a certain moral line that once a character crosses they would forever irredeemable.

I think you can have people have done horrible horrible things to NPCs offscreen and most(but not all) readers will be willing to forgive them if they are doing their best to be good now, because it doesn't feel "real".

Doing things onscreen to characters they've built a lot of investment into is where a lot of people's "unredeemable" morality line will get triggered more easily, because it does feel real. (Similar dynamics are also often true about people's feelings to some extent IRL.)

That said, everyone has their own sense of morality and narrative, and it's all over the place, and there's not one single line everyone's going to agree on.

 

[Lloyd]

Most women fantasize about being raped constantly, so it isn't even that big a deal.

 

[IForgotTheNameOfTheHorse]

The second one isn't about women though @Lloyd
The second one isn't about women though @Lloyd

 

[Lloyd]

The second one isn't about women though @Lloyd

That one's too melodramatic of a scenario for me to way in on.

 

[IForgotTheNameOfTheHorse]

Alright @CaptainQuack

 

[Lloyd]

Alright @CaptainQuack

Quark

 

[owotrucked]

The reader can only possibly like such characters if they make an effort to atone both in their mind and in actions.

Animals are driven by impulse towards many different forms of pleasure, but humans have at least the rational capacity to choose how they fulfill those impulses, whether by safe practices, or subverting them with antisocial behavior, or even medication. And so, their past crimes is still their responsibility. Author may coin these past crimes on the lack of self-mastery of the immature character, but that never relieves the character from those stains because self-mastery to function in society is a basic lesson that everyone learns during childhood.

Some audiences enjoy degenerate stories with character characterized by lack of empathy, but they will dislike it in serious, more realistic stories.

In fiction and games, crimes often have great appeal. Authors just have to focus on the psychological source of appeal and perhaps subvert this appeal by fulfilling it through another method at some point. At the same time, authors should downplay the component of what makes them tragic: Empathy and humanization. At the root, dislikeable crimes come from the fact that someone else is hurt. The fact that the "someone else" could be anyone like the MC or the reader themselves is unacceptable for likeability. On the other hand, if the author dehumanize and paint the victim as deserving the circumstances, the reader will even root for the crime. This is what Robert McKee calls the center of good: make your character liked by putting them slightly above the rest.

For instance, pirate games and pirate stories where you take whatever you want can be fun. On the baseline, players will feel "it's ok they're just NPC lol", but if the games even paint them the victims like scumbag that deserves it, then it's even better. Looting like a pirate is litteraly playing a slot machine, very quick repeatable get rich scheme that can pay off a lot or attract terrible trouble, which leads to an exciting experience whichever way it goes.

Concerning the fantasy of rape, the component of the appeal is the character's sexuality winning over the rationality of the partner:
- for female as receiving end, being so attractive that even the greatest man turns into a lowly beast unable to follow the most basic ethic of society
- for male as giving end, being so proficient with the stick that the woman ends up asking for more
So, it's sort of the mindbreak component that most people like. Of course, this is just a fantasy because in reality it never wins over and turns out to be a terrible lack of love, understanding and empathy. It's natural for people to feel the appeal, but it's unforgiveable to act on them.


In conclusion, the two examples you gave are unlikeable:
Atonement:
-not explicitly sorry
-not responsible for their lackings or doing anything about it

Appeal of crime:
-no appeal for the reader
-only done for the character's sick, alien mind

Dampen of tragic component
-uncharacterized victims: could be anyone
-by default, the reader will empathize with victims more than the alien sick fuck

 

[AnonUnlimited]

Reminds me of the good looking protagonist who gets all the girls and all the other people going against him somehow fail.
Protagonists like that are only likable by people who don't think that behavior is a problem, or that such behavior is justified in some way.
It's not likable, nor will it ever be likable to the majority of people because rape is something that is seen as horrible in current society. Even in the past, rape was never considered good morally, even if people did it. No one liked it unless it was the person doing it.

 

[owotrucked]

As anon says:

No one liked it unless it was the person doing it.

so if you see a rape in a smut and readers liked it, it's because the readers are offered fulfillment of their fantasy. It's not written as an intellectual exercise to see how much of a bastard MC is tolerated. In a way, the reader is the one "doing" it or at least experiencing it and the MC is the one helping them.

You can't just play eroge and read smut and then write a serious story with a MC whose background lore is being a rapist and expect people to like them because they liked Rance

Edit: Maybe you can check Project Moon's works, they usually features character with 'sinful' past, yet they manage to make them likeable. It works in great part because of how abborhent the setting is (making the main characters the center of good despite their faults).

Lobotomy corps has its loads of liars, betrayers, psychopathic murderers, delusional saviors, drug addict. Library of Ruina characters are much less apologetic about their nefarious intents. Limbus Company's main characters are litteraly called the 'sinners' and I can confirm that it has its fill of murders and indirect murders