I just want to vent

[WasatchWind]

It doesn't matter. What matters is getting people hooked. Just like scale farming won't do a thing, neither will strict accuracy unless it's interesting. It doesn't matter if it's Reluctant Lawbreaker or whatever. The point is that Rip Tide does absolutely nothing and turns people off.

And have you actually read the story? The MC is a reluctant lawbreaker. So it's accurate.

Besides, it's not about which sounds better; it's about which title will get more readers. Churning Tides sounds nice to you, but is it something that will hook people? Lawbreaker might not be unique, but I feel it's more interesting than something no on knows that it means and doesn't sound cool or kickass. ? OP has an interesting character, he should emphasize the strong point of his story (an actual reluctant protagonist who has reasons), not the merfolk setting.

It seems that you and the author are leaning more into the setting bit with tides... but is that what people will read?

• It's an interesting mermen setting with scale farming!
• It's an interesting, three dimensional realistically ruthless main character!

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but more people would be hooked by the second one.

The thing is that this is going off of what I've posted so far on scribblehub, compared to my 15+ chapters not posted yet on here. Seasquidfish also chats with me on discord, so even though they haven't read it yet, they're somewhat informed at least to the tone of my story.

I think that reluctant lawbreaker may make sense only drawing from my synopsis - but that isn't really his character.

Irian is an eighteen year old who's traveled south to work because his family's farm is struggling, and his sister has a debilitating illness. He doesn't get some sick pleasure out of torturing merfolk. He does the job because it pays well, and he gets to be in a new environment where he can forget about social struggles in the past.

As his arc moves on, he realizes how horrible his actions have been, and begins making efforts to amend what he's done in some way. Considering this, something like Redeemed Criminal or whatever would make more sense.

I dunno what to do about my title. I don't like it now, but I'm not personally fond of the Novel Updates style synopsis title. That may lose me readers, but I can accept that. At very least I want to improve what other areas I can. SeaSquidfish has already helped me with my signature a lot. My synopsis will be quite hard to pin down though.

 

[StoryTellingGhost]

Why is it so hard to get people to look at my original fantasy novel? Yeah, they'll look at my fanfiction, but my actually good fantasy novel they will not. At this point, maybe it's just time to sell my soul and write an isekai because my story clearly isn't interesting enough as is.

Shame to see this happen to someone else as well...

Venting is always good, be it through words or other means.

Sadly I know what you are saying, but giving in to the "Popular" Genres means, you basically put up the white flag and walk home. Throughout my Writing Journey that started with a quite popular Fanfiction of a Mobile Game(Wattpad) and was so happy to see it blossom, that I spread out to multiple websites. That one website, which I regret posting my Novel on, is Webnovel.

When I was at my nerves end and real-life was treating me like I was doing more bad than good, something I call "Author Syndrome" came to life. That came in when I was at my worst. Desperate for any sort of fan base that wasn't just fake views, I searched for another Site.

Why I didn't go for Wattpad? Because on there, actual novels get drowned in the Sea of "Romantic Novels" that aren't even Romantic. They are just Teenage Fantasy Stories with a clickbait title.( that is from the ones I saw and read a bit of)

Back on track, I discovered Scribble Hub. As I made an account and looked through the forums, I saw the mass-amount of posts and recent ones at that. I was sold immediately, but what did my past desperate-self know about the price you have to pay for making an original Novel, written in an "Unorthodox" way, with a different dialogue style and "Info dumps" that aren't even real.

In the end, never give up hope. Never give up your foothold, always keep going forwards. And don't you dare put up that white flag!

 

[LinMeili]

The thing is that this is going off of what I've posted so far on scribblehub, compared to my 15+ chapters not posted yet on here. Seasquidfish also chats with me on discord, so even though they haven't read it yet, they're somewhat informed at least to the tone of my story.

I think that reluctant lawbreaker may make sense only drawing from my synopsis - but that isn't really his character.

Irian is an eighteen year old who's traveled south to work because his family's farm is struggling, and his sister has a debilitating illness. He doesn't get some sick pleasure out of torturing merfolk. He does the job because it pays well, and he gets to be in a new environment where he can forget about social struggles in the past.

As his arc moves on, he realizes how horrible his actions have been, and begins making efforts to amend what he's done in some way. Considering this, something like Redeemed Criminal or whatever would make more sense.

I dunno what to do about my title. I don't like it now, but I'm not personally fond of the Novel Updates style synopsis title. That may lose me readers, but I can accept that. At very least I want to improve what other areas I can. SeaSquidfish has already helped me with my signature a lot. My synopsis will be quite hard to pin down though.

Then that's good. You should think a bit more about the title and synopsis. You might not like my advice and you don't have to use it, but it 100% works.

Again, your signature is emphasizing the merfolk setting, which in my opinion is weaker than your actual hook which is a great MC. Your choice, though.

It's okay. I hope no one took offense. I'm just trying to help. I'll shut up now.

 

[Deleted member 45782]

It doesn't matter. What matters is getting people hooked. Just like scale farming won't do a thing, neither will strict accuracy unless it's interesting. It doesn't matter if it's Reluctant Lawbreaker or whatever. The point is that Rip Tide does absolutely nothing and turns people off.

And have you actually read the story? The MC is a reluctant lawbreaker. So it's accurate.

Besides, it's not about which sounds better; it's about which title will get more readers. Churning Tides sounds nice to you, but is it something that will hook people? Lawbreaker might not be unique, but I feel it's more interesting than something no on knows that it means and doesn't sound cool or kickass. ? OP has an interesting character, he should emphasize the strong point of his story (an actual reluctant protagonist who has reasons), not the merfolk setting.

It seems that you and the author are leaning more into the setting bit with tides... but is that what people will read?

• It's an interesting mermen setting with scale farming!
• It's an interesting, three dimensional realistically ruthless main character!

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but more people would be hooked by the second one.

Agree to disagree. I think what I meant is that OP wants to be more of a fantasy genre. And hooking people - it can hook people, for the right reader. To you, the story will be more interesting if its titled Reluctant Lawbreaker. To others, that title does not speak interesting. It just sounds like something someone came up to slightly differentiate themselves from some of the very overcrowded tropes on here, but when you read it, it is basically like a cookie-cutter story within that trope. That is my impression from hearing this title.

The reason why the story is not hooking you in is because on this writing platform, epic or general fantasy isn't that popular. Many like to read stories on here for isekai/litrpg/smut as what it seems on forums and through searches. Now, people on here may be more likely hooked to it if you lead them on that its somewhat similar story within those tropes they often read. What the OP trying to do is different.

Reluctant Lawbreaker may draw to the synopsis but personal opinion, it just doesn't match. I actually like Jemini's titles better and the points they gave where valid. It sorta relates but there is some pull over the current one.

 

[LinMeili]

The reason why the story is not hooking you in is because on this writing platform, epic or general fantasy isn't that popular.

I didn't say it didn't hook me. In fact, I said several times I liked the MC. I read fantasy, not LitRPG or smut.

For the rest, your choice what you want to think. You think unique merfolk is a selling point while I do not.

Whatever, your posts are a little hostile now and personally attacking me which I think is unwarranted.

Also, why do you keep harping on Reluctant Lawbreaker? As I said, it was a suggestion to use the character as the title, not the setting. Whether it's Redeemed Criminal or Reluctant Lawbreaker, why do you keep posting about it?

 

[Deleted member 45782]

I didn't say it didn't hook me. In fact, I said several times I liked the MC. I read fantasy, not LitRPG or smut.

For the rest, your choice what you want to think. You think unique merfolk is a selling point while I do not.

Whatever, your posts are a little hostile now and personally attacking me which I think is unwarranted.

Also, why do you keep harping on Reluctant Lawbreaker? As I said, it was a suggestion to use the character as the title, not the setting. Whether it's Redeemed Criminal or Reluctant Lawbreaker, why do you keep posting about it?

I am not even attacking you. How is this attacking you? I am responding to your post. We disagreed on different parts and you pointed to me what I think is not something that will hook in readers. I say it can also go the same way in the other direction too.

If by hostility have you read your post I was replying to? I'm also unsure what that dizzy emoji meant to signify and I'm a little bit confused by the tone of the comment. However, I am responding because you quoted me in a reply, so...I am replying back to that comment. And that comment you quoted me on happens to be about the title you suggested. So that's why I replied back about the title. Its because you commented and quoted me on it.

Maybe this is where you felt like was hostile when I describe the readers and tropes. However that is not the case and I'm not trying to single you out. I'm simply pointing out how his story is not one of those popular tropes on here, so there's gonna be less readers getting hooked into it anyways. And he doesn't want to rewrite his title to fall into a similar direction of those stories just to hook more readers. At that point you're not writing for yourself, you're just writing for what readers want to hear. As for the title, let's agree to disagree.

Apologize if you felt like I was attacking you when I'm not trying to. And yes, I know not every reader reads or enjoys the same trope as another does, but one can see what popular stories are on here and deduce what kind of tropes are more favored on here and that's what I'm trying to point out. What he wants is to catch readers who are not into that direction of those tropes.

 

[Kuropon]

Without looking at the story I could notice a few things that could be the reason.

- Short chapters [At least at the start ]
- Updated once per week.

Yeah, if you want to get a story going you need frequent releases. Many readers will glance at the updated schedule and just avoid it.

 

[WasatchWind]

I didn't say it didn't hook me. In fact, I said several times I liked the MC. I read fantasy, not LitRPG or smut.

For the rest, your choice what you want to think. You think unique merfolk is a selling point while I do not.

Whatever, your posts are a little hostile now and personally attacking me which I think is unwarranted.

Also, why do you keep harping on Reluctant Lawbreaker? As I said, it was a suggestion to use the character as the title, not the setting. Whether it's Redeemed Criminal or Reluctant Lawbreaker, why do you keep posting about it?

The difficult thing is that it is hard to get across tone of voice in online messages. You could choose to read my message here in a grueling monotone voice or an extremely tense angry one.

My personal view is not that I find your suggestions or seasquidfish's more valid or such than the other.

I guess what I have found is that while I would like more readers, I want to attract more readers of typical fantasy.

While good characters are an important part of that, for many, things like an interesting world or magic system are what is more desired among that demographic.

It will impact my success on the site, but it will also differentiate me.

I appreciate your advice however, and have adjusted my synopsis to reflect more about my MC than being a history lesson.

However, some of my readers, like one from Wattpad finds he likes this new one less. It will be a process that I'll have to work on.

I doubt that my cover, title and synopsis will stop changing until some great day that I can hold my story in my hands.

 

[TunTun]

It doesn't matter. What matters is getting people hooked. Just like scale farming won't do a thing, neither will strict accuracy unless it's interesting. It doesn't matter if it's Reluctant Lawbreaker or whatever. The point is that Rip Tide does absolutely nothing and turns people off.

And have you actually read the story? The MC is a reluctant lawbreaker. So it's accurate.

Besides, it's not about which sounds better; it's about which title will get more readers. Churning Tides sounds nice to you, but is it something that will hook people? Lawbreaker might not be unique, but I feel it's more interesting than something no on knows that it means and doesn't sound cool or kickass. ? OP has an interesting character, he should emphasize the strong point of his story (an actual reluctant protagonist who has reasons), not the merfolk setting.

It seems that you and the author are leaning more into the setting bit with tides... but is that what people will read?

• It's an interesting mermen setting with scale farming!
• It's an interesting, three dimensional realistically ruthless main character!

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but more people would be hooked by the second one.

The OP clearly has no intention of improving. Instead of trying to change his title for something better that might attract more readers - he prefers ranting at the readers and at Scribble Hub.

But hey, the free market is the free market.

 

[owotrucked]

Artists will always have to face the eternal compromise between sharing our own vision versus catering to an audience.

Choosing one over the other is neither an improvement or a fall.

Finding our values as an artist, and articulate them to light our path is necessary to protect our determination to work on a project.

I am a weak writer that crave for readers, so I chose the easy way. (It's totally not just to draw big tiddies girls )

You can see the same in social media with hypersexualization. People that find success with content that value them as an object (and averting them from blooming other aspects of their identity).

That's similar to the thinking process of "oh I'll give up everything that is genuine in my original story and I'll just satisfy people with isekai and smut because I value the number of readers more than the expression of my inner self." And that's fucking tragic and deserves your rage and frustration.

But, stepping forward with unwavering faith against the currents, the unhelpful criticisms or the norms are hallmarks of an artist. And that is an honorable and respectable thing to do.

I'm not saying that artists should push through without paying mind to anything. Because what was logical, valuable, felt a month ago might not be true anymore.

Now then, you just wanted to vent. But a lot of people might interpret that as a "call for help".

So, let me just give you a pat on the back. You are doing something true to you, and that's valuable in itself, and I'm fucking frustrated that my SFW chapters have a lot less reads than my NSFW chapter. Fuck me sideways too.

You're welcome.

Ps: I'm joking, I'm not mad that people read the nsfw chapters more.

 

[WasatchWind]

The OP clearly has no intention of improving. Instead of trying to change his title for something better that might attract more readers - he prefers ranting at the readers and at Scribble Hub.

But hey, the free market is the free market.

I acknowledge that my original post was crass. Perhaps I really need to take it down.

 

[LinMeili]

I apologize. In retrospect, my replies were a little too heated. It's all good, let's get along.

 

[Xtticus0]

Guess I'll jump on here for a min
I haven't read your story yet, but I was actually planning on reading it later lol. Anyway,

Although standalone fantasy is not unpopular, Isekai/litrpg indeed have a bigger audience currently, but it seems like there's a lot undeserved scorn towards them?

Both Isekai / litrpg are vastly open-ended and/or ambiguous enough that you can get by with the very minimum and still get most of the audience, and very little will (I think, probably) complain, if that's what you want. In fact I can remember plenty of Isekai where the MC's previous life is barely mentioned other than a few instances or just at the start, or sometimes even straight up have most of their memories deleted lmao, and on the litrpg end also there's plenty of novels that use its elements very minimally, opting for a more descriptive approach.

Good luck to you in any case, I think that if you enjoy what you do you'll surely get better at it, and if you get better at it surely you'll have an audience.

 

[WasatchWind]

Guess I'll jump on here for a min
I haven't read your story yet, but I was actually planning on reading it later lol. Anyway,

Although standalone fantasy is not unpopular, Isekai/litrpg indeed have a bigger audience currently, but it seems like there's a lot undeserved scorn towards them?

Both Isekai / litrpg are vastly open-ended and/or ambiguous enough that you can get by with the very minimum and still get most of the audience, and very little will (I think, probably) complain, if that's what you want. In fact I can remember plenty of Isekai where the MC's previous life is barely mentioned other than a few instances or just at the start, or sometimes even straight up have most of their memories deleted lmao, and on the litrpg end also there's plenty of novels that use its elements very minimally, opting for a more descriptive approach.

Good luck to you in any case, I think that if you enjoy what you do you'll surely get better at it, and if you get better at it surely you'll have an audience.

Hate towards it is unwarranted. The only thing nearing hatred I have for a genre is things like Omegaverse.

My criticism towards Isekai is that I don't see a ton of iteration on the genre. I want to see differing beginnings. Maybe it's not someone traveling from Earth to another world, but between two different fantasy worlds?

Something like Brandon Mull's Beyonders series is technically isekai, but it does not feel as such.

I must add the gigantic caveat though - I've only looked at a few of these stories on here, so my opinon on it is very invalid probably.

I think what I've discovered is that I have more of a taste towards western fantasy rather than Asian literature - just my personal taste, another person might find the opposite.

I'll also make the distinction, as some have turned back on me in such discussions, that other than the classics like Lord of the Rings, I do not consider myself a fan of most medieval era, European esque setting fantasy.

I prefer some playing around with culture and time period - I myself am setting my fantasy in a setting based off early 19th century America.

There's also the matter of that a lot of standard "medieval" fantasy has more in common with D&D than any actual history or folklore, which is the reason why Tolkien's work doesn't fall into the trap - he based his work on ancient legends and traditions.

I've rambled. That's just some thoughts on my tastes.

 

[Jemini]

...In fact I can remember plenty of Isekai where the MC's previous life is barely mentioned other than a few instances or just at the start, or sometimes even straight up have most of their memories deleted lmao...

Originally, the "portal fantasy" (now called Isekai) genre was a powerful story telling shortcut that came pre-packaged with it's character motivation (the desire to get back home) as well as an excuse to info dump in the form of the MC not knowing what all the strange and wonderous things around them were all about. Therefore, it makes exposition easier. Finally, they all ended with the MC having grown and matured as a character over the course of the story as they bring their growth and experiences with them back to the real world.

Famous examples include Chronicals of Narnia, The Wizard of Oz, Labyrinth, and the OG of the genre, Alice in Wonderland.

(Labyrinth = best traditional portal fantasy ever made IMO.)

Even as the portal fantasy became more of an Eastern thing with the likes of Inuyasha and Digimon Adventures, it largely kept this format. However, sometime in the late 2000s and early 2010s, the transition from "Portal Fantasy" to "Isekai" happened. At that time, the "wants to get back home" motivation for the MC also disappeared. It was in the mid 2010s that all Isekai seemed to start imitating the cookie-cutter format where every single one of them seemed to want to imitate Mushoku Tensei which was released in 2012, and that's also around the time it started getting called "isekai trash" and became a huge joke.

Hate towards it is unwarranted. The only thing nearing hatred I have for a genre is things like Omegaverse.

My criticism towards Isekai is that I don't see a ton of iteration on the genre. I want to see differing beginnings. Maybe it's not someone traveling from Earth to another world, but between two different fantasy worlds?

Something like Brandon Mull's Beyonders series is technically isekai, but it does not feel as such.

I must add the gigantic caveat though - I've only looked at a few of these stories on here, so my opinon on it is very invalid probably.

I think what I've discovered is that I have more of a taste towards western fantasy rather than Asian literature - just my personal taste, another person might find the opposite.

I'll also make the distinction, as some have turned back on me in such discussions, that other than the classics like Lord of the Rings, I do not consider myself a fan of most medieval era, European esque setting fantasy.

I prefer some playing around with culture and time period - I myself am setting my fantasy in a setting based off early 19th century America.

There's also the matter of that a lot of standard "medieval" fantasy has more in common with D&D than any actual history or folklore, which is the reason why Tolkien's work doesn't fall into the trap - he based his work on ancient legends and traditions.

I've rambled. That's just some thoughts on my tastes.

I have actually gone an approach with mine where I have been setting up the plot very well along the lines of the new Eastern "Isekai" format of the portal fantasy genre, but as soon as I have that foundation established I go and start changing it up by reverting back to as many Western fantasy tropes as I can squeeze in there.

I even have plans to re-introduce getting back home as a motivational factor. You can't really have that as a given in the modern culture around the genre, so I have to come up with something extra to motivate the MC to want to return to Earth. (I actually know exactly what I'm going to do already, but revealing it would be a spoiler.)

 

[WasatchWind]

Originally, the "portal fantasy" (now called Isekai) genre was a powerful story telling shortcut that came pre-packaged with it's character motivation (the desire to get back home) as well as an excuse to info dump in the form of the MC not knowing what all the strange and wonderous things around them were all about. Therefore, it makes exposition easier. Finally, they all ended with the MC having grown and matured as a character over the course of the story as they bring their growth and experiences with them back to the real world.

Famous examples include Chronicals of Narnia, The Wizard of Oz, Labyrinth, and the OG of the genre, Alice in Wonderland.

(Labyrinth = best traditional portal fantasy ever made IMO.)

Even as the portal fantasy became more of an Eastern thing with the likes of Inuyasha and Digimon Adventures, it largely kept this format. However, sometime in the late 2000s and early 2010s, the transition from "Portal Fantasy" to "Isekai" happened. At that time, the "wants to get back home" motivation for the MC also disappeared. It was in the mid 2010s that all Isekai seemed to start imitating the cookie-cutter format where every single one of them seemed to want to imitate Mushoku Tensei which was released in 2012, and that's also around the time it started getting called "isekai trash" and became a huge joke.

I think this explains my frustration well. I've looked at some isekai on this site, and it was just a shower of the MC getting what they wanted.

No fear of not being able to get back home. No grief at separation from their family and friends, and no uneasiness at the strange elements of this new world.

Obviously this isn't ever isekai here, as I had only a small sampling, but it really was not my cup of tea. It does not feel relatable, and it doesn't really spark a meaningful conflict for me.

Of course that's all my opinion.

 

[Xtticus0]

I think this explains my frustration well. I've looked at some isekai on this site, and it was just a shower of the MC getting what they wanted.

No fear of not being able to get back home. No grief at separation from their family and friends, and no uneasiness at the strange elements of this new world.

Obviously this isn't ever isekai here, as I had only a small sampling, but it really was not my cup of tea. It does not feel relatable, and it doesn't really spark a meaningful conflict for me.

Of course that's all my opinion.

Well, I think you already know by now that this isn't really intrinsic to this genre, although it might be more prevalent than in others.


I don't think wish fulfillment stuff is in and of itself bad, it's just that if there's not enough grit for all the fluff it will feel boring or unnatural. I think this is a pretty common reason readers drop stuff actually, then there's also the less common one, too much grit not enough fluff where the world is seemingly designed to fuck your characters, lmao.

Well, I won't ramble too much, but there's plenty of hidden gems in these genres.

 

[KiraMinoru]

The best type of isekai is the isekai that people don’t even realize is technically isekai even when you hint it in the title as being isekai.

 

[WasatchWind]

Well, I think you already know by now that this isn't really intrinsic to this genre, although it might be more prevalent than in others.


I don't think wish fulfillment stuff is in and of itself bad, it's just that if there's not enough grit for all the fluff it will feel boring or unnatural. I think this is a pretty common reason readers drop stuff actually, then there's also the less common one, too much grit not enough fluff where the world is seemingly designed to fuck your characters, lmao.

Well, I won't ramble too much, but there's plenty of hidden gems in these genres.

Ah, the latter is the kind of story I also have a really hard time with. My least favorite book every is Maze Runner. Or I suppose, more accurately, its sequel, as I never was able to get through that one.

It started off with one of my least favorite tropes in fiction - amnesia. It felt like it started with the premise - "I want to put some kids in a really weird situation. Orson Scott Card wanted to put kids in a zero gravity laser tag arena. Suzanne Collins wanted to put kids in a battle to the death. Their answer to the problem was creative worldbuilding. Maze Runner it seems decided to ignore that, opting for amnesia so the author could figure it out later (and from what I understand from people who have read the whole series, they didn't like the eventual explanation for it).

But actually getting back on topic, my least favorite thing about the story is how ruthlessly it punishes the characters. They are just mercilessly beaten by their circumstances. To me, I don't find that engaging. We like a feeling of push and pull, of tension. Rather than being pulled between good and bad like most books, it felt more like I was being dragged along only by extremely depressing events.

Characters didn't just die, they were mutilated. This is YA fiction too...

I just find that kind of story very unrealistic. The book honestly made me feel extremely depressed. I had to stop reading the sequel after a character got their face eaten off or something.

You can have a dark story - but it will feel very tiring if the character never show a spark of humor, personality, or moment of levity.

 

[owotrucked]

Wanting to go home is contradictory with wish fulfillment (kind of escapism). It would suck if Harry Potter just said "alright let me just go back to Dursley's".

As you say, "wanting to go home" has to emerge explicitly. In Wizard of Oz, the mc wanted to leave then there must be reasons for changing her mind and thats okay. I'd really miss internet and the comfort of my bed if I left home for more than 10 min.

I like Isekai for the comedy. The "getting ran over by a truck" is a funny meme. Scrap making isekai meaningful, it just brings memes into a fantasy world!

I'd say the portal fantasy just fits well enough in the hero's journey as the shadow world. But as a writer, you often don't have enough trust from reader to sit through all the setting up. That's why it can be interesting for starting writers to shortcut all the initial part to get known.

A great historical isekai I've read was a manhwa called "Threads of Time". It had well executed start up and ending. It was about sending a delinquint gifted kendo athlete back into the era when Korea got invaded by Mongolians. But you have to sit through a long time to have the action kick up.

Anyway, I think there are good reasons for why isekai exist as it is, regardless of how mediocre readers could think of it.

Yeah if you're an established writer you can do whatever you want and revolutionize the genre if you feel like it.

Ps: Bruh you don't have to apologize for posting a rant. You are allowed to feel frustration against anything. For some people, their way of caring is to offer logical solution and then they get confused when you wouldnt accept them and it creates heated conflicts from nowhere for no reasons

It's true that IF your intent was to demean readers for their taste, it's not good. But the only person that would hurt more from this, would be you as an artist.