How to balance design and power?

RepresentingWrath

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You wrote:

I assumed that was more or less synonymous to power levels. If not, then my bad. Though they're closely related and I could say quite a few same things about both, so I would say I'm not entirely wrong.

And frankly, my answer doesn't change much. In my opinion, balance shouldn't be done on the expense of realism and logic, but through circumstances and time. If someone's armor can't be penetrated, it shouldn't be penetrated; there are things that can't really be compared and that have yes/no answers rather than some ratios or relations, like most games do for balance.

A good example is in a story titled Young Flame, where the main character is literally made out of fire, and poisons just don't work on her on principle. It's not some SSS-tier resistance, there's no resistance because there's nothing poison can affect - although many games would make her just highly resistant for balance, and that's precisely what I think should be avoided like fire.

I think that discrepancy in power (I'm assuming the discrepancy is when something's power in the lore is different from game/story) is to some degree essential, because without it you won't have nearly as much tension and all exciting things unless you're an absolutely amazing writer. Rules can be bent to some degree, but at some point they get broken, and my way to bend them without breaking is considering a single moment in time - usually it's the narrative present - and matching everything to fit there. Once that's done, I develop the situation in a way that seems most logical from that point of view, not my general view over the whole outline of the story - if need be, I can kill off characters that might become too strong, or add some special events, conditions, or items to change the balance between some forces.
I actually didn't think of bending or breaking rules... Maybe I am too fixated on this? I don't know. I'm not sure I will follow your advice, but I will keep it in mind.
Trying to balance different powers is mostly a waste of time. Real life isn't balanced, so neither should a story be.

If you need a character to survive for plot reasons, then you'll need to alter the narrative so they don't get in a situation where they can die. A true pantser will never be in a situation where that happens though, since you shouldn't need a character to survive for plot reasons... Just kill them.

In the end, there's no real meaning to trying to balance things. A top rank archmage could get stabbed in the kidneys by a cutpurse on the streets and it wouldn't be unreasonable. If the power disparity is closer, then it's even more likely for an upset to happen.

There's only one case where balance should occur, and that's in GameLit or - to a lesser extent - LitRPGs. The game is meant to be balanced, so things can happen that don't make sense because that's how the developers made the game. You have the numbers, so use them. A ten strength character should never win a strength contest to an eleven strength character unless they cheat.

Just do what feels right. If you struggle to improvise, then create weapon triangles or tiers to help organize your thoughts. Or something.
Maybe. But I don't like it when legendary, powerful characters, get killed so easily. Not totally against it, it can work, but I don't like it. It is my personal preference.
 

Cipiteca396

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How to NOT kill them off after a single brutal fight, yet make them clash constatnly, and be worthy of their lore? Without bullshittery and breaking the plor.
Unfortunately I wrote myself into a corner and they have to fight. MC HAS to win for plot to progress and for the story to continue. However, MC is weaker and dumber, and there are no allies nearby. MC can't flee, MC can't outsmart, MC can't win.
And I don't remember who it was, but someone told me here that one character in Jujutsu Kaisen was killed off-screen simply because he was insanely OP and author probably didn't know how to fix it. How to avoid this problem?
Get gud.
how to make tarrasque be worthy of its lore descriptions
Make sure to show off every power that makes the Tarrasque so terrifying. Don't kill it in one shot with a clever plan- unless it's a revenge match or something.

Encounter the monster by accidentally waking it up- while standing on its sleeping back. The characters feel an earthquake, and suddenly the entire ground lifts up and throws them around. Trees topple, animals try to escape their burrows, and then the tarassque stands up.

Have a powerful team try to take it out, and have their blows blocked by its armored carapace. Even when they coordinate, strike a weak point, it does nothing. After grueling combat, they take off an arm, and it regrows right before their eyes. Slowly whittle it down over the course of days, and then it turns and walks away- mildly annoyed.

When the characters finally get strong enough, have them kill it- and then have it resurrect after ten minutes and get up again, interrupting their victory laps.

Every. Single. Power. Must be explored and shown off to justify its presence and lore.

For a large number of similar threats, have them constantly show off each other's strengths on accident. They're legitimately trying to kill each other, but they keep playing cards or using powers to survive and retaliate.
 

Jerynboe

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I mean… make your living legend a Chad instead of a God. Make your legendary heroes the same way you make interesting MCs. Give them weaknesses (that they can MOSTLY compensate for because you skipped to the end of their arc), make their legendary achievements things that they got through by the skin of their teeth instead of things they could easily do every week. Give them a power that is well defined and useful, which they know how to use, but not universally applicable. Give them weaknesses that you know, even if nobody else does.

A invincible enemy can be played for terror, but if they are a flat “mc can’t win full stop” and the MC is forced to throw down with them with no reasonable possibility of retreat, interference, type advantage, or clever tactics, you have written yourself into a corner good sir. Deus ex machina might be your only solution.
 

melchi

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I'm not asking how to make a character win. I'm asking how to make tarrasque be worthy of its lore descriptions, but at the same time not break the plot. Worthy of lore, not the stats.
If a tarrasque showed up, most people would <nope> and run away. Unless there were nuclear weapons no one would attack godzilla.

Well, I guess if the MC had a gundam they might attack godzilla.

Though if we are taking about giant monsters, I like how knights and magic's lore worked. They have giant monsters that should be crushing themselves under their own weight but the monsters have equally powerful magic crystals in them that counteract gravity and allow something that can step on a house and crush it to move normally.
 

RepresentingWrath

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STAHP LAUGHING!


Make sure to show off every power that makes the Tarrasque so terrifying. Don't kill it in one shot with a clever plan- unless it's a revenge match or something.

Encounter the monster by accidentally waking it up- while standing on its sleeping back. The characters feel an earthquake, and suddenly the entire ground lifts up and throws them around. Trees topple, animals try to escape their burrows, and then the tarassque stands up.

Have a powerful team try to take it out, and have their blows blocked by its armored carapace. Even when they coordinate, strike a weak point, it does nothing. After grueling combat, they take off an arm, and it regrows right before their eyes. Slowly whittle it down over the course of days, and then it turns and walks away- mildly annoyed.

When the characters finally get strong enough, have them kill it- and then have it resurrect after ten minutes and get up again, interrupting their victory laps.

Every. Single. Power. Must be explored and shown off to justify its presence and lore.

For a large number of similar threats, have them constantly show off each other's strengths on accident. They're legitimately trying to kill each other, but they keep playing cards or using powers to survive and retaliate.
Okay, we getting there, I feel it. Now, what to do if Tarrasque is an active character, and it won't die? And what to do if Tarrasque isn't the center of the story? It is a secondary character, for example a deuteragonist. And don't you dare mentioning OPM, or else I will do... things...
 

Cipiteca396

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Now, what to do if Tarrasque is an active character, and it won't die?
So, Azarinth Healer.
And what to do if Tarrasque isn't the center of the story? It is a secondary character, for example a deuteragonist.
This is pretty normal, I think? Sort of like Gandalf in LotR.

Everything has strengths and weaknesses.
If your normal or weak MC has an OP ally, that ally deals with big threats like the Balrog while the weak MC deals with normal threats like climbing some steep stairs.
If the MC needs to deal with a big threat for plot reasons- like some nasty spiders- the ally might have to leave to conduct some business in Isengard or Dol Guldur.
And when the ally gets hit too hard and goes down, the MC can step in and look after them. Maybe the whole reason the OP ally is traveling with the MC is because the MC has a single strength that covers the ally's greatest weakness.

Now, if your OP character is truly without weakness, then make them bored, or slightly antagonistic. They don't need to help the MC. They can just sit around, watching the MC deal with their own stuff. Have them pick fights and make the MC deal with it. I could go on, but I'm starting to flounder, so I'll kill it here.
 

laccoff_mawning

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Example. I make a character that is a living legend. Nearly indestructable, super smart, super powerful. And I have MC who is somewhat powerful. Unfortunately I wrote myself into a corner and they have to fight. MC HAS to win for plot to progress and for the story to continue. However, MC is weaker and dumber, and there are no allies nearby. MC can't flee, MC can't outsmart, MC can't win.
This doesn't really answer your question, but I had a thought reading this:

It's "impossible" for the mc to win again Mr. legend himself.
Its also "impossible" for the plot to progress if the mc doesn't win against Mr. legend.

If both are "impossible", is there any reason to focus on making the MC win, and not just try and find a way for plot to progress even if MC loses?
 

RepresentingWrath

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If both are "impossible", is there any reason to focus on making the MC win, and not just try and find a way for plot to progress even if MC loses?
I think it depends on a story. You definetely can do this, but there are a lot more nuances to this. Moreover, it can alienate a lot of readers, so it depends on author's personality as well.
 

Jemini

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Same here. Sorry, I think I missed the point of my own question. :sweating_profusely: How to make a character be worthy of lore, but at the same time not break the plot?

Example. I make a character that is a living legend. Nearly indestructable, super smart, super powerful. And I have MC who is somewhat powerful. Unfortunately I wrote myself into a corner and they have to fight. MC HAS to win for plot to progress and for the story to continue. However, MC is weaker and dumber, and there are no allies nearby. MC can't flee, MC can't outsmart, MC can't win.

I'm not asking how to plan. As I said, I know that if you plan, you can make everything work, but not every writer plans everything. I'm asking, what mistakes to avoid when you create a characters cast, so that you won't write yourself into a corner from my example? Where should I make consession for characters strength, that is crucial to their designs, so it won't break my story as much? Or some tips or tricks, your approach, something like that.

I don't know if it's true or not since I didn't read the story. And I don't remember who it was, but someone told me here that one character in Jujutsu Kaisen was killed off-screen simply because he was insanely OP and author probably didn't know how to fix it. How to avoid this problem? Or at least how to not make it as big. Without planning.
Well, it really ultimately depends on how well you plan out your power system. But, since you said this is already a story in progress, it's entirely possible you've already shot yourself in the foot for what I'm about to suggest.

There are a few ways to deal with such a scenario. 1. The lore around the character is over-glorified. 2. The lore around the character neglects to mention some critical weakness of the figure, either intentionally omitting it or because this weakness is not obvious enough to be known to many people including the legendary figure themselves. 3. Recruiting help in some form or fashion.

And when I say weakness, I don't mean something as hokey as Superman's Kryptonite. Actually, speaking of Superman, a scenario identical to the one you just described showed up in Worm when the MC had to go up against this world's equivalent of Superman and the battle is won via the exploitation of a weakness. (I will use spoilers because this one is a rather major spoiler for Worm.)
So, Worm's equivalent of Superman was called Alexandria. She has flight, super strength, super durability, and one of the largest pure intelligence boosts of any thinker character in the series. She never forgets anything, can think faster, and notices the tiniest details.

She had 2 critical weaknesses the MC was able to exploit against her though. 1st is that she's become rather arrogant in her power, and thus has become rather secure in the thinking that there's nothing that a normal parahuman can do to harm her. 2nd is that, even if her body has increased power and durability, her brain is still just as reliant on Oxygen as any other person.

So, the MC winds up having her bugs crawl down Alexandria's throat and she literally drowns her in bugs. Like, they don't just close off her throat. They actually get sucked down into her lungs, and the spiders that manage to get in there spin webs over every air passage they get access to. This results in the near invincible Alexandria going brain-dead from oxygen deprivation.

Really, in order to handle scenarios like these without breaking the power scaling of your world, you really have to be careful with how the lore about such a character is presented. Usually, if you're going the weakness route, the lore needs to be presented with the weakness already in mind. The lore doesn't need to tell what the weakness is, but it has to be presented in a way that talks around that weakness. Kina like the McBeth "no man of woman born" prediction given by the weird sisters. (Although it doesn't need to be THAT obvious in terms of giving the answer in what it doesn't say.)

At any rate, again, after reading Worm, I've become a big fan of not giving power-ups but rather forcing a character to work with what they've got, defeating impossible odds with only what they came into the battle with.
 

RepresentingWrath

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1. The lore around the character is over-glorified. 2. The lore around the character neglects to mention some critical weakness of the figure, either intentionally omitting it or because this weakness is not obvious enough to be known to many people including the legendary figure themselves.
This is what I was looking for. Won't work all the time, but I can use it in future works. Thanks.
 

Corty

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Balance from a cultivation story. ☠️ Jokes aside, it only works if everyone have similar source of power.
I made it so that their origin is the same energy, no matter how unique it is. All my fantasy stories take place in a "Cosmos" and they are simply different realms. Even if their worlds are completely different and even if they have unique ways to use spells, etc, their origin is the same energy, coming from the Cosmos.

That way, I could create any type of special power or way of using magic, doing stuff, I can point, it is the cosmic energy. It is the basis of all. :blob_frown:
 

TheEldritchGod

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Would also love to learn something about this balancing.
Noob Handbook
I wrote it for D&D 3.5, however, I feel it applies to all character design.

However, Trap #3 stands out.

Trap 3
Everything has to be awesome.

Borderlands illustrates this absolutely perfectly for me. For those who are not familiar with it, it includes a weapon drop system that is randomized based on the power and type of creature that you kill, as well as the area in which you kill it. This leads to a phenomenon that most people who play the game are familiar with. You end up collecting terrible weapons that you wouldn't use even at 10 levels lower dropping from enemies at a frequent rate, weapons that you used to use at an uncommon rate, and then a new weapon to use every couple levels, or what seems like 15 bajillion hours later. People hated this (at least, people I knew), because, well, you just killed a boss, and he dropped some crap weapon that you can't use, they wanted something interesting dropping every time. While that makes sense from a player's standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a developer's standpoint. Those crap weapons need to exist to make the good weapons actually be good. If you constantly got better weapons (or even good weapons) you would end up with vastly overpowered weapons halfway through the game, and it would just not be fun. Not only that, but the choice would be hard, and people don't like that. And finally, it would make all of the guns seem the same (at least guns of a certain type). Does that last one sound familiar?

The reason so many guns were worthless was a mathematical certainty. If you have a good gun, then you have three options on any weapon drop: a better gun, the same gun, or a weaker gun. If there's a finite limit to power (which there is), then you will eventually run out of better guns, and every gun will be as good or worse. It's just a matter of how fast that happens. The slower you go, the more bad guns you'll experience on the way to the best, the faster you go the more time you'll spend with the best (making encounters too easy if you get better guns faster than you need them). And there's always room for complaint here because of it, since the balance is a subjective thing.

That same principle applies to D&D, though for a slightly different reason. In D&D, you have so many options that the likelihood of it not being a good option increases with each new system you add. Heck, each new tiny little ability (skill use, feat, etc.). It's a matter of complexity, it's so complex that it's absolutely impossible for any one person to look at every reaction and say "yup, that's going to affect this in this precise way". You can whine and such about how the core game is poorly balanced, but knowing what they knew then, it was balanced. Knowing what they know now, it's not. That's why ToB came out. And the classes like Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Binder, Incarnum, etc. The later you go into a system's development, the more reasonable the abilities become (note the balance and design on early supplements and core vs later supplements). And it's still really hard, because there's still combinations that they don't think of checking for.

So not every character has to be awesome. It’s okay to be okay. Sure, the game has a I-WIN mentality, but if you fit in with the group, then it’s okay to be average. And if you want to be the best, be the best, but don’t force everyone else to be the best right along with you. Every player is different and if you want to get people to improve, focus on talking about it in a friendly way, “Hey, ya know, if we work out your buffs ahead of time, we can really improve our chances of survival.” That’s a good way to put it. Ordering the Wizard to set aside certain slots for buffs, that you “need” because the combo is perfect with your X, will only make people want to strangle you.

Yes, the handbook is about playing D&D, but since the player's job in D&D is to make a "Character" I suggest you read through it for the philosophy, not the game mechanics. 21 traps for noobs is where I would focus, but the discussion on Class Tiers is also relevant.

The Tier System
We’ll go into detail on classes later, but let me mention the tier system. The tier system is both brilliant and idiotic. It is a system for breaking down the classes and rating them in tiers as to which one is more powerful (one is best, six is worst) all other things being equal.

That last part is the important part. For you, the player, it’s useful. For comparing different players to each other, it’s useless. The tier system puts wizards at one and monk at five. Yet, in the campaign I am running, the monk PC is the scariest thing I’ve ever seen. By the rules, I cannot kill her and she mops the floor with everyone. I’ve mind controlled the whole party and turned them against her and she not only won, but took them all alive. I’ve cheated and broke the rules and made monsters ten challenge ratings higher then her and in personal combat she mangles my worst monstrosities. I have literally stripped her of all equipment, dropped her in an alien dimension where reality does not work as intended, and nullified all magic. She never broke a sweat.

Now, when she was playing a wizard, it was ten times worse.

Some players have a gift. A knack for the game. She’s an accountant in real life and worked dealing with state and federal regulations and had to stare down the ATF more then once and won each and every time. (She does my taxes, btw.) Some people are deadly with a spreadsheet and she’s one of them. I don’t care what class or race you give her, she’s going to optimize it in ways that will make you gape and then…

She’ll get bored. Once she’s used a trick or combo, she’s done. It’s lost it’s luster. That’s what makes her so nasty. She never looks back. Never does the same thing twice. Once she comes up with something, I can prepare against it, but she never uses it again. We joke she’s kind of like Doctor Who. Unarmed, outgunned, outmatched, you still know the bad guys are going to lose. It’s not in the script, it’s just what she does.

This might be you. You might never reach this level of nerdvana. My point is, the tier system is only good at comparing the classes to each other. The mistake people make is to compare them across players. I’ll put my group of five players up against any other group of eight on the planet because my players are a lean, mean, optimized dungeon crawling machine.

What’s this got to do with the tier system? People are going to try to tell you to play X or be a Y because someone else told them that this was the way to play. Sometimes not knowing something won’t work is good, because you don’t know you can fail. It isn’t all about the best PC, because if it was, everyone would play Pun-Pun and be done with it. It’s a balance between teamwork, power level, optimization, and style. I got one player who couldn’t optimize his way out of a paper bag, but nobody makes the group fall down laughing more then he does. He also has the record for most resurrections with the same PC. So go look at the Tier System thread sometime, but take it with a grain of salt.
 

Lloyd

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Example. I make a character that is a living legend. Nearly indestructable, super smart, super powerful. And I have MC who is somewhat powerful. Unfortunately I wrote myself into a corner and they have to fight. MC HAS to win for plot to progress and for the story to continue. However, MC is weaker and dumber, and there are no allies nearby. MC can't flee, MC can't outsmart, MC can't win.

I'm not asking how to plan. As I said, I know that if you plan, you can make everything work, but not every writer plans everything. I'm asking, what mistakes to avoid when you create a characters cast, so that you won't write yourself into a corner from my example? Where should I make consession for characters strength, that is crucial to their designs, so it won't break my story as much? Or some tips or tricks, your approach, something like that.
Just retcon in a weakness. You can easily make that shit make sense, especially if the character wasn't shown that much. Like the alien in gantz that can revive each time it dies, they just kill it with a sniper rifle or something because it can't see that it's going to die, so the revive doesn't happen. Just come up with some stupid ass weakness like that.
 

owotrucked

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Why do you need to balance anything? Just gank your mc until he's about to croak if he's too strong
Make it a time-attack DPS check to save their loved ones
Give MC debuffs from treacherous enemies
Have MC eat bad meat and suffer from diarrhea
 

RepresentingWrath

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Why do you need to balance anything?
Personal preference.
Noob Handbook
I wrote it for D&D 3.5, however, I feel it applies to all character design.

However, Trap #3 stands out.



Yes, the handbook is about playing D&D, but since the player's job in D&D is to make a "Character" I suggest you read through it for the philosophy, not the game mechanics. 21 traps for noobs is where I would focus, but the discussion on Class Tiers is also relevant.
I don't think there is anything helpful here, sorry. P.S. I won't read handbook since I want moderately succint answers.
 
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