How much you went all out to create your story?

binarysoap

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I do want to point out though, that Ral has a point in which, yes, a lot of an author's seemingly random decisions are unconscious biases or viewpoints, but on the other hand, sometimes, authors can and will deliberately write things they personally do NOT agree on, which I assume yansusustories is talking about.

In a rather extreme example, say the author lives in the US and believes that all black people should still be slaves. However, the average reader base obviously does not support that notion. So the author deliberately puts black people in a good light, and let them be the president. This doesn't mean the author is no longer a racist asshole because of his writing decision though.
 

yansusustories

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Yes, exactly that. I just strongly disagree with the thought that it's supposed to be exclusively the case that everything an author writes shows their opinion or views on society. Of course, there can be such a view being communicated (deliberately, even) but it doesn't have to IMO.
 

Ral

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Yes, exactly that. I just strongly disagree with the thought that it's supposed to be exclusively the case that everything an author writes shows their opinion or views on society. Of course, there can be such a view being communicated (deliberately, even) but it doesn't have to IMO.
But this is not what I said. Nowhere did I say that everything he author writes shows their opinions or views. It was you assuming I'm saying these things.

What I said was the very act of writing certain things make you touch those subjects. In binarysoap example, by writing about black people you are touching the subject of black people. You can't prevent yourself from saying something about black people. Even if it was deliberately the opposite of your views, it is still saying something. You didn't end up not saying anything by doing that.

When you write about a female protagonist who doesn't take on traditional gender job/roles you touch on the subject of women and jobs/roles.

If you write about girl love you will touch on the subject of girl love.

If you write a war story then you would touch the subject of war.

You have no intention of touching these subjects, but you did touch on these subjects the moment you write. You might not agree with what you wrote, or you most likely would agree with what you wrote, but that itself is telling. If what you wrote doesn't say anything about a subject then why would you agree or disagree with what you wrote? What is there to agree or disagree about nothing?

The only way to say nothing is to not write.
 
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ohko

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I'm still confused about @Ral's definition of "world building", because to me this kind of "setting development" is an element of all kinds of writing. All stories require internal consistency on multiple levels, and developing the basic setting is an aspect of all kinds of fiction.

In the OP, it is presumed that we are talking about "intensive" world-building, in the fashion where there are two moons or 20-hour days or calendar months named Zfastler, Moeaerjia, and Kaieralia -- which in my honest opinion only appeals to a small subset of people.

I think nearly everyone can agree that maintaining an internally consistent setting is essential to all kinds of writing. However, I don't believe most people would necessarily define that as "world-building". It's just the setting. To me, it's honestly just semantics to claim that authors actively perform "world-building" when they write a story like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James and the Giant Peach, or the Little Prince. All writers establish a setting and stick with it, and failing to stick with your setting is just bad writing.

The procedural aspects of "setting development" also differs from writer to writer.

Intensive world-building enthusiasts will often obsess over creating a map first and imagining their entire world (source: I did this a lot in middle school). The story comes secondary to the setting, because the author is primarily interested in the setting first.

However, I would argue that a majority of writers (even fantasy writers) do not pursue this pattern. Most writers start with an idea -- i.e. dragons, a wandering inn, super grandma, a hot air balloon -- and expand their story around the idea. I believe that the story comes before the setting for most authors.

I think over many years, I've encountered a lot of amateur writers and "world-builders", and a personal observation I've made (feel free to disagree with me), is that the "world-builder" amateur writers are generally less successful than the story-focused authors. The reason for this is that I've encountered dozens of middle school world-builders who obsessed over their map and magic systems, yet when it came to writing their stories, they rarely break past the few couple chapters. They prone to info-dumping, leading to incredibly boring expositions like attempting to introduce 13 different gods and their theology system in chapter one of their story. They also have a tendency to have a poor grasp of theme, character development, and narrative structure compared to more successful writers.

To be clear -- this was the way I used to write. My NaNoWriMo story from 2013 was an intensive world-building story that likely would have bored the heck out of everyone because I was obsessed about making an entropy-based magic system that was pseudo-scientifically consistent. To some regards, I cared about the setting more than I cared about anything else in the story that I was attempting to write.

The major pitfall is that just because I care about my worldbuilding setting, nobody else necessarily does.

I think one of the major areas of growth that I experienced was when I switched over to writing short stories in college.

When I started writing short stories, I developed a much stronger appreciation for theme and character development -- which are currently the two strongest values that I currently have as a writer. I learned over time that it's not your word count or the fanciness of your prose that determines the effectiveness of your writing, but rather your ability to deliver a punchline in a self-contained story.

I frequently write in the fantasy genre because I like the flexibility to explore different scenarios.

For instance, in fantasy, it's possible to explore a novel situation such as a princess who is cursed to have poisonous skin... and therefore cannot physically touch anyone without killing them. My primary focus as an author isn't the setting, but rather the premise behind the story. My objective is the explore the circumstances around this premise and paint an interesting picture for the readers to gobble up. I can develop a lot of themes that simply aren't possible in a historical fiction or modern-day Earth story, and I believe most readers enjoy these kinds of stories for reasons other than the setting.

I think so many people had a negative reaction to @Ral because many of us simply don't agree with this kind of broad sweeping statement.

But when it comes to Fantasy, it is the setting that makes people interested in fantasy.

There are many authors and readers on this site who write (or read) fantasy, and we flatly disagree that the setting is the main reason that drives most reader interest for our stories... or the stories that we like to read as readers.

Certainly, there is a population of readers and writers who adore world-building and primarily pick novels because they like the setting... but I personally contest the notion that these are the majority of readers.

It's true that there are stories that I adore the setting. For instance, I loved the Star Wars universe as a child (which is sci-fi, not fantasy, again pointing to the fact that nothing about this is unique to "fantasy" as a genre). However, the bulk majority of stories that I like, I like for various reasons not related to the setting.

For instance, on NovelUpdates, I like villainess novels, dragons, and kingdom-building novels. If there is a dragon -- then I will literally go read it. This is interest in a pattern (or subject), not the setting... which I think is the behavior of most readers of popular fiction. If you believe that most people read isekai novels or harem novels because they like the setting... I think that's an extremely misguided conclusion. To use KonoSuba as an example, I doubt anyone really finds its generic isekai medieval fantasy setting particularly that interesting, but the story is immensely popular because the main cast is iconic and people love Megumin's ex-plosionnn~! Similarly speaking, Re:Zero is popular because the premise of dying a lot is cool and otakus like Rem. Arguably, many of the setting for these stories really isn't that great, yet the stories are immensely successful regardless.
 

Ral

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In the OP, it is presumed that we are talking about "intensive" world-building, in the fashion where there are two moons or 20-hour days or calendar months named Zfastler, Moeaerjia, and Kaieralia -- which in my honest opinion only appeals to a small subset of people.
The origianal post doesn't actually say that but ask us how far we go. The original poster though give his own answer. He do it intensively and deeply. Or maybe he was just curious if you do your world building that far. Then it is your turn to answer whether you do it intensively or not.

AliceShiki and my discussion is so full of confusion and misunderstandings. We are essentially talking about different things and assumed that we attacked each other.

What I initially discussing was If you add fantasy element into your story, then do it properly. You just can't add things because you like them without being concerned how it affects your story.

AliceShiki, I think, essentially said that she wants to add fantasy elements and don't do very intensive world building. She just don't want to put too much of her resources on it when she is just using it as a flavor for her story.

Two related but different topics. Then, I think, what happened was we assumed that the other took the opposite of what we are talking. I assumed that AliceShiki meant that she add things without any care how it affects her story and I think AliceShiki assumed that I want her to do intensive world building or not write fantasy. We really say none of those, we just assumed things. Flucket even point out my assumptions about what AliceShiki said with that cute bear. The discussion was just absolute chaos.
I think so many people had a negative reaction to @Ral because many of us simply don't agree with this kind of broad sweeping statement.
Statements I didn't make.
There are many authors and readers on this site who write (or read) fantasy, and we flatly disagree that the setting is the main reason that drives most reader interest for our stories... or the stories that we like to read as readers.

Certainly, there is a population of readers and writers who adore world-building and primarily pick novels because they like the setting... but I personally contest the notion that these are the majority of readers.

It's true that there are stories that I adore the setting. For instance, I loved the Star Wars universe as a child (which is sci-fi, not fantasy, again pointing to the fact that nothing about this is unique to "fantasy" as a genre). However, the bulk majority of stories that I like, I like for various reasons not related to the setting.

For instance, on NovelUpdates, I like villainess novels, dragons, and kingdom-building novels. If there is a dragon -- then I will literally go read it. This is interest in a pattern (or subject), not the setting... which I think is the behavior of most readers of popular fiction. If you believe that most people read isekai novels or harem novels because they like the setting... I think that's an extremely misguided conclusion. To use KonoSuba as an example, I doubt anyone really finds its generic isekai medieval fantasy setting particularly that interesting, but the story is immensely popular because the main cast is iconic and people love Megumin's ex-plosionnn~! Similarly speaking, Re:Zero is popular because the premise of dying a lot is cool and otakus like Rem. Arguably, many of the setting for these stories really isn't that great, yet the stories are immensely successful regardless.
You are kinda wrong or take my meaning wrong. I'll clarify.

I don't mean you like world building when you like Fantasy or you'll love every kind of fantasy or what not. I mean you like Fantasy because of the fantastical elements, well certain fantastical elements, which is you know part of the setting/world?

You like dragons? Aren't dragons fantastical? Can you really find dragons anywhere else other than fantasy stories?

We like certain aspects of fantasy. Yours are dragons. It is these things that make you like fantasy. And dragons are part of the setting, well, the setting makes dragon's existence possible. You liked fantasy because of the setting/world that makes these possible.

With your Megumin example. There can be no Megumin Explosion if it is set in the real world with no fantastical elements at all. Same with Re:Zero. If that was set in the real world, he would remain dead. The story is not possible without the fantastical elements. It is the fantasy setting that makes all this things you love possible.

I don't know how else I could say this. What makes Fantasy a Fantasy is the setting, the fantastical elements. If you liked Fantasy then it is because of these fantastical elements. Not all of it of course, and there would be specific kind of fantasy you like, but certainly it is the fantastical stuff that can only be found in fantasy.
 
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BenJepheneT

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i'm not gonna form any opinions, just thanking you guys for the entertainment, especially you @Ral you scaly bastard
 
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