How hard would a power system like this scale?

[Jemini]

Well, I didn't want it to be too insane, I was thinking 12 could casually rip a chunk off a mountain at best. Wanted the focus to be more on abilities than raw stats, since there will be stuff that amplifies it further.

Well, if you are making out a 3 to be olympic athelete level, then at most a 12 strength person could lift 250 tons at their absolute full exertion. (best Olympic strong-men in the dead-lift competition lift 500lbs). So, that's really impressive and all, but it's actually not quite the level you would need to "casually rip a chunk off a mountain."

For reference, 250 tons would be about the weight of 2 train engines (not counting any cars.) In terms of an F=MA calculation to figure out the power of a 12 STR person's punch, let's talk in terms of a car crash. The average car weighs about 1,800kg (need to work in kg to do F=MA correctly.) So, if we take 250,000/1,800, then that's about 139. That would be the value in kilomiters per hour said car would need to be going to equal the STR 12 person's punch if it were to collide with something. (139kph = 86mph).

This would do devastating damage to the human body. It's definitely at super-human levels. However, this is well shy of the level of strength you would need to start casually re-arranging the landscape.




In this sense, it's actually a pretty darn reasonable power-cap for a world to have. The one concern I would have is that if you are defining your terms this exactly, that's what one might call "giving yourself enough rope to hang yourself." Your readers will be able to calculate strength values as easily as I just did, and they absolutely WILL call you out on things if you make a mistake.

Also, there is another problem. Strength is the only thing that's easy to scale like this. Intelligence would get out of hand at only a 4, as would most any other stat you might be able to come up with.

(I might also add, speed is a function of strength. Other stats like "agility" and "dexterity" refer to something different. Agility is your ability to suddenly stop your momentum and then pick up again at full speed going another direction. Better agility will allow for more complicated sudden movements and feats of acceleration and sudden stopping. Dexterity is your ability to perform small and precise motions, and to coordinate your body's movement.)

 

[OliviaMyriad]

Am really interested in the novel you speak of. Manipulation of the muscle strands to increase yield instead of mindlessly increase muscle growth is the way to go due to Square Cube Law, the ratio of muscle strength by cross-sectional area versus mass by volume means that in actual fact, your strength to mass ratio is plummeting.

While you're not growing any bigger, the mass (and thus density) of your body is still increasing. Does that change your comment about delta of strength to mass ratio?

 

[NotaNuffian]

While you're not growing any bigger, the mass (and thus density) of your body is still increasing. Does that change your comment about delta of strength to mass ratio?

Unfortunately. Yes.

Ultimately how much you can throw is equal to (roughly) = "total mass you can lift" - "your own mass (because it is still there)"

If mass increase is less than (or even equal to) strength growth, then the mutation is benefitial. If else, you need to take note of the diminishing return and try to "sell the stocks at the peak market value".

 

[OliviaMyriad]

Unfortunately. Yes.

Ultimately how much you can throw is equal to (roughly) = "total mass you can lift" - "your own mass (because it is still there)"

If mass increase is less than (or even equal to) strength growth, then the mutation is benefitial. If else, you need to take note of the diminishing return and try to "sell the stocks at the peak market value".

You do get vastly faster though, so logically your strength grows faster than your mass. I guess that answers my own question. Still, its very conflicting that they get sturdy enough to outclass tanks in all aspects rather early on. Would a person be able to destroy a tank through brute force earlier or later than they can stop a tank round with their body?

Also, sorry to disappoint but the novel is in Chinese. I specified first half of the novel because the second half is stupid cultivation stuff with lame superpowers instead of good ole brawling and smashing skulls.

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

Well, if you are making out a 3 to be olympic athelete level, then at most a 12 strength person could lift 250 tons at their absolute full exertion. (best Olympic athletes lift 500lbs). So, that's really impressive and all, but it's actually not quite the level you would need to "casually rip a chunk off a mountain."

In this sense, it's actually a pretty darn reasonable power-cap for a world to have. The one concern I would have is that if you are defining your terms this exactly, that's what one might call "giving yourself enough rope to hang yourself." Your readers will be able to calculate strength values as easily as I just did, and they absolutely WILL call you out on things if you make a mistake.

Also, there is another problem. Strength is the only thing that's easy to scale like this. Intelligence would get out of hand at only a 4, as would most any other stat you might be able to come up with.

(I might also add, speed is a function of strength. Other stats like "agility" and "dexterity" refer to something different. Agility is your ability to suddenly stop your momentum and then pick up again at full speed going another direction. Better agility will allow for more complicated sudden movements and feats of acceleration and sudden stopping. Dexterity is your ability to perform small and precise motions, and to coordinate your body's movement.)

I generally stay away from trying to quantify intelligence, at most I'll have a stat for magic or things of similar capacity. I'll also use linear scaling where appropriate like reaction speed and such. It's quite hard to make a stat that gives "strength" without giving "speed", but I imagine the "strength" stat to be essentially just adding a certain amount of mass to the punch via a supernatural force, shitty explanation, but it's somewhat believable at least for me.

I don't think I have an agility-like or dexterity-like stat, mostly just skills or abilities, I do have movement speed that scales linearly tho.

Thankfully, the start consists of mostly just carrying construction materials around and battling mildly superhuman people with guns so I don't think I'll dig a grave for myself THAT fast.

 

[greyblob]

Well, I've been running in circle for a while. But you said punch, and a punch is speed, acceleration, and mass(momentum) with a bunch more factors involved. This explains it pretty well. But it also raises the question: do you have an agility stat?

If you're simply going with times X numbers only then according to this:

Punching forces in amateur boxing are around 2500 N. If you weigh 70 kg (11 stone or 154 lbs), you’ll exert about 700 N of force on the ground just stood still. That makes punching force about 3.5 times body mass.

Taking 2500x512 = 1,280,000 N = 1,280 kN
A resting 1 ton car would weight around 9.81 kN for comparison. So you'd punch a clean hole through or send it flying. I have no idea if this would literally ignite the air, and I'm not going to find out.
I don't think this achieves what you're looking for though. Maybe comparing strength to lifting force would be more accurate.

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

Well, I've been running in circle for a while. But you said punch, and a punch is speed, acceleration, and mass(momentum) with a bunch more factors involved. This explains it pretty well. But it also raises the question: do you have an agility stat?

If you're simply going with times X numbers only then according to this:

Taking 2500x512 = 1,280,000 N = 1,280 kN
A resting 1 ton car would weight around 9.81 kN for comparison. So you'd punch a clean hole through or send it flying. I have no idea if this would literally ignite the air, and I'm not going to find out.
I don't think this achieves what you're looking for though. Maybe comparing strength to lifting force would be more accurate.

Yes, there's a stat for speed and reaction that scales linearly, that's why I specified that strength is how heavy a punch is.

It's irrelevant to the person's actual mass, but if a guy has a strength stat of 6 it'll be as if a guy who's 500kg-ish is punching you regardless of how heavy he actually is.

Ah, I guess this does change things huh?

 

[NotaNuffian]

You do get vastly faster though, so logically your strength grows faster than your mass. I guess that answers my own question. Still, its very conflicting that they get sturdy enough to outclass tanks in all aspects rather early on. Would a person be able to destroy a tank through brute force earlier or later than they can stop a tank round with their body?

Also, sorry to disappoint but the novel is in Chinese. I specified first half of the novel because the second half is stupid cultivation stuff with lame superpowers instead of good ole brawling and smashing skulls.

Dammit.

Well, you should be able to take out a tank earlier than later. You are literally a tank, high defense but higher attack. Tanks don't tank tank rounds well, ie they can't take in what they dish out.

Yes, there's a stat for speed and reaction that scales linearly, that's why I specified that strength is how heavy a punch is.

It's irrelevant to the person's actual mass, but if a guy has a strength stat of 6 it'll be as if a guy who's 500kg-ish is punching you regardless of how heavy he actually is.

Ah, I guess this does change things huh?

So the stats don't align to physical traits of the person.

Whelp, that shit's broken af. I can imagine a loli with strength stat 9 and starts picking up tanks.

 

[Jemini]

I generally stay away from trying to quantify intelligence, at most I'll have a stat for magic or things of similar capacity. I'll also use linear scaling where appropriate like reaction speed and such. It's quite hard to make a stat that gives "strength" without giving "speed", but I imagine the "strength" stat to be essentially just adding a certain amount of mass to the punch via a supernatural force, shitty explanation, but it's somewhat believable at least for me.

I don't think I have an agility-like or dexterity-like stat, mostly just skills or abilities, I do have movement speed that scales linearly tho.

Thankfully, the start consists of mostly just carrying construction materials around and battling mildly superhuman people with guns so I don't think I'll dig a grave for myself THAT fast.

FYI, I pulled one of my usual stunts. I edited my post since you responded here.

The content of the edit was to show that a punch from a 12 STR person would be the same as an 86mph car-crash if we assume said car is a sedan crashing into a brick wall.

In other words, let alone removing the top of a mountain, it's only just barely enough to destroy said brick wall.

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

Dammit.

So the stats don't align to physical traits of the person.

Whelp, that shit's broken af.

Yes and no, the system can change stats from the norm to a certain extent, but it won't be able to give someone with the physical traits of a regular human a 12, and something like a large animal won't suddenly get nerfed.

FYI, I pulled one of my usual stunts. I edited my post since you responded here.

The content of the edit was to show that a punch from a 12 STR person would be the same as an 86mph car-crash if we assume said car is a sedan crashing into a brick wall.

In other words, let alone removing the top of a mountain, it's only just barely enough to destroy said brick wall.

Well shit, might need to rework how this functions, that wouldn't be that impressive now. At least compared to the feats you can perform with magic and weaponry

 

[greyblob]

Yes, there's a stat for speed and reaction that scales linearly, that's why I specified that strength is how heavy a punch is.

It's irrelevant to the person's actual mass, but if a guy has a strength stat of 6 it'll be as if a guy who's 500kg-ish is punching you regardless of how heavy he actually is.

Ah, I guess this does change things huh?

Not really. It's plausible with some very liberate adjustments to reach some interesting results. But I haven't eaten anything yet, and I can barely think right now. might get back to you later.

The average car weighs about 1,800kg (need to work in kg to do F=MA correctly.) So, if we take 250,000/1,800, then that's about 139. That would be the value in kilomiters per hour said car would need to be going to equal the STR 12 person's punch if it were to collide with something. (139kph = 86mph).

What? Did you just divide mass by mass to get velocity? I'm genuinely confused.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Well, if you are making out a 3 to be olympic athelete level, then at most a 12 strength person could lift 250 tons at their absolute full exertion. (best Olympic strong-men in the dead-lift competition lift 500lbs). So, that's really impressive and all, but it's actually not quite the level you would need to "casually rip a chunk off a mountain."

For reference, 250 tons would be about the weight of 2 train engines (not counting any cars.) In terms of an F=MA calculation to figure out the power of a 12 STR person's punch, let's talk in terms of a car crash. The average car weighs about 1,800kg (need to work in kg to do F=MA correctly.) So, if we take 250,000/1,800, then that's about 139. That would be the value in kilomiters per hour said car would need to be going to equal the STR 12 person's punch if it were to collide with something. (139kph = 86mph).

This would do devastating damage to the human body. It's definitely at super-human levels. However, this is well shy of the level of strength you would need to start casually re-arranging the landscape.




In this sense, it's actually a pretty darn reasonable power-cap for a world to have. The one concern I would have is that if you are defining your terms this exactly, that's what one might call "giving yourself enough rope to hang yourself." Your readers will be able to calculate strength values as easily as I just did, and they absolutely WILL call you out on things if you make a mistake.

Also, there is another problem. Strength is the only thing that's easy to scale like this. Intelligence would get out of hand at only a 4, as would most any other stat you might be able to come up with.

(I might also add, speed is a function of strength. Other stats like "agility" and "dexterity" refer to something different. Agility is your ability to suddenly stop your momentum and then pick up again at full speed going another direction. Better agility will allow for more complicated sudden movements and feats of acceleration and sudden stopping. Dexterity is your ability to perform small and precise motions, and to coordinate your body's movement.)

Pardon, but I think the 250 ton is still in mass (ie Kg), not weight (N). Because from the reference material I used, peak humans can lift 500 Kg (as in mass) and going by 512 means 250000 Kg which in weight terms means 2,500,000N.

F = Ma,
a = 2,500,000/1,800 = 1389 m/s^2.
Taking acceleration to be (final velocity - initial velocity) / time, where initial = zero, time to be 1 second for easy count, I get the final velocity at 1389m/s, more than mach 3.

Not really. It's plausible with some very liberate adjustments to reach some interesting results. But I haven't eaten anything yet, and I can barely think right now. might get back to you later.


What? Did you just divide mass by mass to get velocity? I'm genuinely confused.

Same, so I asked.

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

What? Did you just divide mass by mass to get velocity? I'm genuinely confused.

Pardon, but I think the 250 ton is still in mass (ie Kg), not weight (N). Because from the reference material I used, peak humans can lift 500 Kg (as in mass) and going by 512 means 250000 Kg which in weight terms means 2,500,000N.

F = Ma,
a = 2,500,000/1,800 = 1389 m/s^2.
Taking acceleration to be (final velocity - initial velocity) / time, where initial = zero, time to be 1 second for easy count, I get the final velocity at 1389m/s, more than mach 3.

Ah yeah, I just noticed this now, took like a passing glance at the numbers and immediately replied lol. Imma come back to this thread later to take a look at things more closely, there's some varying answers here.

 

[Jemini]

What? Did you just divide mass by mass to get velocity? I'm genuinely confused.

A 12 STR person is able to lift 250 tons. In other words, they are exerting 250 tons of force on a (now) inert object. So, enough strength to lift said 250 ton train-car with a velocity of 1.

However, static force does not make for an easily understandable example. So, I needed a way to up the "velocity" column in the equation by lowering the mass.

250,000 X 1 = 250,000
---------- -- ---------
1,800 X ? =250,000

I was solving for the ?. You are correct that dividing mass by mass wouldn't give us velocity in this equation. That's not what I was doing though. I was dividing force by mass, and that DOES output velocity.

Pardon, but I think the 250 ton is still in mass (ie Kg), not weight (N). Because from the reference material I used, peak humans can lift 500 Kg (as in mass) and going by 512 means 250000 Kg which in weight terms means 2,500,000N.

F = Ma,
a = 2,500,000/1,800 = 1389 m/s^2.
Taking acceleration to be (final velocity - initial velocity) / time, where initial = zero, time to be 1 second for easy count, I get the final velocity at 1389m/s, more than mach 3.

Ok. Yes, you caught me. I calculated the lifting force incorrectly in the initial calculation.

Rounding errors (on both of our parts) aside, that's still not taking off the tops of any mountains.

(No, I'm not calling using 1 instead of 9.8 for the newton conversion a rounding error. That was a pretty big one on my part. I'm calling using 10 instead of 9.8 on your part a rounding error. I did quite a bit of rounding on my side as well though, so not blaming you for this one at all.)

 

[greyblob]

A 12 STR person is able to lift 250 tons. In other words, they are exerting 250 tons of force on a (now) inert object. So, enough strength to lift said 250 ton train-car.

However, static force is a different thing from explosive force. As such, I had to come up with a demonstration of explosive force by raising the velocity.

What I did was a differential equation.

250,000 X 1 = 250,000
---------- -- ---------
1,800 X ? =250,000

I was solving for the ?. You are correct that dividing mass by mass wouldn't give us velocity in this equation. That's not what I was doing though. I was dividing force by mass, and that DOES output velocity.

Yeah, I get it now. This is still wrong, though.
But like said here:

Pardon, but I think the 250 ton is still in mass (ie Kg), not weight (N). Because from the reference material I used, peak humans can lift 500 Kg (as in mass) and going by 512 means 250000 Kg which in weight terms means 2,500,000N.

F = Ma,
a = 2,500,000/1,800 = 1389 m/s^2.
Taking acceleration to be (final velocity - initial velocity) / time, where initial = zero, time to be 1 second for easy count, I get the final velocity at 1389m/s, more than mach 3.

Velocity is equal to acceleration when the time = 1s. If you lower that even further, you'd get different results. I don't think this even applies to moving objects, and I highly doubt impact force can be represent this way.

 

[Jemini]

Yeah, I get it now. This is still wrong, though.
But like said here:

Velocity is equal to acceleration when the time = 1s. If you lower that even further, you'd get different results. I don't think this even applies to moving objects, and I highly doubt impact force can be represent this way.

Looks like we've had a very strange ninja-post issue this time.

Anyway, yeah, I saw that one and responded to it. You're right. The correct formula is...

250,000 X 9.8 = 2,450,000
1,800 X ? = 2,450,000

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

Alright it seems everyone has come to consensus that someone with a strength stat of 12's lifting capabilities equal that of a car crashing into a wall at over mach 3.
I'm terrible at maths, so how will that translate to how much force they can punch with? Would it be the same?

 

[greyblob]

Alright it seems everyone has come to consensus that someone with a strength stat of 12's lifting capabilities equal that of a car crashing into a wall at over mach 3.
I'm terrible at maths, so how will that translate to how much force they can punch with? Would it be the same?

I'd say just skip logic and numbers.

Well, I didn't want it to be too insane, I was thinking 12 could casually rip a chunk off a mountain at best. Wanted the focus to be more on abilities than raw stats, since there will be stuff that amplifies it further.

If he can casually chip away at a mountain, then if he put some strength into it, with a few repeated punches, he can definitely bring it down. His punches would be strong enough to accelerate the air to make a shockwave(sonic boom).

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

I'd say just skip logic and numbers.

Fair enough, to be honest though with the sci-fi theme I feel kinda bad if I do. But hey, it's not like every character that's gonna appear has a strength stat of 12, and the other stats are something I can make up easily or already understand thanks to this discussion. So not much of a problem.

 

[greyblob]

Fair enough, to be honest though with the sci-fi theme I feel kinda bad if I do. But hey, it's not like every character that's gonna appear has a strength stat of 12, and the other stats are something I can make up easily or already understand thanks to this discussion. So not much or a problem.

Ehh it's fine as long as long as you keep it within reason. There's also training, technique, body type, bone density, muscle mass, muscle fibers, reaction speed, processing speed and a lot more. A trained martial artist with 12str would be magnitudes stronger than an average joe with buffed stats even though they both have the same number. As long as you can say 'yeah, that makes sense. I can see this happening' then the readers would think the same(usually).