How do you write a good litrpg?

[ARedFox]

Then allow me to respectfully disagree.

Look, are you writing a story about Sword and Sorcery with a dash of Isekai, or are you writing a LITERAL ROLE PLAYING GAME story?

I am, technically, writing a LitRPG, by most standards. All three books are in the same setting and have, what people "call" LitRPG elements. Do I consider it LitRPG? Well, parts of it will be, but not yet.

If you are writing a LitRPG, you are the DM. YOU. THE AUTHOR. You are DMing a Game. In this game, the "Player" (your MC) knows they are in a game. So tell me, HOW DOES THIS DIFFER FROM ANY OTHER ISEKAI?

The difference is, the Player knows the GAME SYSTEM.

If the game system itself is not a major focus of your story, and how the MC interacts with THE SYSTEM, then why write a LitRPG? Just stick with a normal S&S/Isekai. Your reader, if they are coming to read your story, is being told, "THERE WILL BE A GAME SYSTEM AND THE MC IS GONNA FUCK WITH IT". No. Seriously. You put LitRPG in your tags, that's what I expect. That's what MOST READERS will expect.

Now, how do you fuck with the system?

Well, in D&D d20 3.0/3.5, there is an item from the AE&G book called "stilts". Yes. Stilts. As in, you put them on your feet and you are taller.

THEY. ARE. BROKEN.

Why? Because the way the stilts are written, they make your speed 20. Normally your speed is 30, so these reduce your speed by 10, right?

NO.

YOUR SPEED BECOMES 20.

Your speed is 5? Put on stilts, you are at 20. Some versions of attack spells make your speed 0. However, you can apply buffs and debuffs in any order you want. So you are speed 0, but you apply the stilts last, now you are speed 20. Briar Patch? Who cares? Evard's Spiky Tenticals of Forces Intrustion? HAH!

You wanna put on a suit of Thaauld Stone Plate (maybe the best non-magical armor in the game) and carry 10,000 pounds of equipment?

Strap on a pair of 2' tall stilts, pass a balance check of 8, and stroll along at 20 feet a round AND have a +1 to hit from the High Ground Advantage. All from a pair of 6 copper stilts.

Profession: Basket Weaving Sounds useless, right? But you can make items out of wicker with this skill. You can make... Wicker Armor.

Okay... so it's JUST AC: 1 armor. Who cares-
Now I'm adding on thorns so it's a weapon.
Okay... well it still is.
I'm using the armor improvement rules and using my massive Basket Weaving skill to improve the damage and armor on my Wicker armor. Also, it's masterwork, Wicker Armor so it also is lighter and has no movement penalties.
Okay. Well then I suppose...
I'm using my cantrips to distill salt from the ocean. Salt is very expensive, so I'm using it as a material component to enchant magic items. Now with craft arms and armor and craft wondrous items... Well, basically everyone is going to have a +38 to hide and move silently.
While wearing a suit of armor made out of wicker?
Yup.
STOP! JUST STOP ALREADY! WHAT IS THIS MONSTROSTY???

That was an actual conversation I had with a player. I ran an adventure where the players were stripped naked and thrown on a prison island. The player, systematically outfitted the entire party with FUCKING WEEDS AND SALT and instead of sneaking off the island, took 2 weeks to prepare in hiding and then OVERRAN THE PLACE.

That is what a LitRPG is supposed to be about.

When someone knows the rules so well they can take the foundation of the cosmos and fuck it up so bad the very underpinning laws of reality itself wind up sitting in a shower cleaning itself with a brillo pad while weeping and rocking back and forth as it whimpers, "I will never be clean again. I will never be clean again. I will never be clean again...I"

And the player DID it with a 6th level wizard.

In order to pull this off, YOU NEED TO KNOW YOUR SHIT. You need to know the rules. The reader doesn't, but YOU DO. If you break your own rules, the veil is lifted. The reader will figure it out that YOU ARE MAKING SHIT UP AS YOU GO ALONG, and in that moment, the illusion is broken. No longer is this some MC who is the smartest guy in the room using fucking WEEDS AND SALT to build an unstoppable army, but an MC who is PROTECTED BY PLOT ARMOR.

Nobody wants to read about the guy protected by plot armor.

We want the MC who is doing the god damn impossible with next to nothing. We want MacGuvyer. And the OLD version, not the new TV show. We want an MC who can be stripped naked and dropped in the middle of hell and then somehow, figures out how to win. Because WE love that guy. We root for that guy. We want to BE that guy.

If all you are going to do is stack on more points and have a running total of how many XP he has earned and how many levels he's gone up... well... the rest of your story is going to have to be awesome, because that part is going to be doing all the heavy lifting.

A LitRPG has one element that other stories don't. THE SYSTEM. Your system must be well developed, understood, and more importantly, the MC is the one who knows it better than anyone else. The Reader doesn't need to know the rules. You never have to explain them, but YOU MUST KNOW THEM. You must apply them THE SAME WAY. Every. Single. Time. You cannot just make things up as you go along.

SO...

TO the O.P., I suggest you just make things up as you go along.

"What???" I hear you cry.

Look, if you haven't been a DM/GM/ST or any other table top ref in a RPG, then as you write this story, you are gonna fuck up. Sorry, but being a DM is an art form. being a GOOD DM is even rarer. I did it for 3 decades. I know my shit. I can run a game on the fly, making up shit as I go along, because I'm good. Chances are, you aren't.

So, the only way you are gonna learn is to DO IT. Just write the damn story. Don't worry about all this crap because you are going to fuck it up. And You NEED TO FUCK UP, if you are going to LEARN how to do it right.

So, actually, this piece of advice is the best:



If you are just starting out, keep all this advice in mind, and WRITE THE DAMN STORY.

When you screw up, learn from your mistakes, then write another story. Guess what? You will learn and you will do better. That's how this works. Unfortunately, there aren't any short cuts to this process. Write it, and then learn. That's how you'll eventually write a good LitRPG.

And... don't get hung up on labels. Write the story the way YOU want and forget these tropes and guidelines. That's all this is.

A line to guide you in the right direction.

Sure. I'll counter cause I got nothing better to do and it seems fun. Spoiler again to minimize space.

Spoiler: I'm sleepy.

To me litRPG is losing its specificity and has become more of genre. Plenty of sites have plenty of novels tagged litRPG or have it in the name when it's a just a basic system with action and adventure. Not the complex and exploitable system with tons of unique interaction that DnD has. I can't say I like it, but as it is now, I don't think litRPG is limited to in depth systems or a heavy focus on the system. Many don't even have a party of characters and instead just have one who makes friends but doesn't adventure with them which further expands it.

So while I do agree the basics of the system need to be solid, I don't think going super in depth is necessary for it to be litRPG. Stuff like how many skill slots, how high levels and stats should be, if skills can level and evolve, how many classes. what type or if there are classes at all, etc., is super important to figure out, but It feels like the basics.

Beyond semantics, I believe we have a different writing philosophy. When writing, I try to minimize my mistakes when starting something new and by keeping it simple whereas it sounds like you accept making more when new and then trying to learn more from it? For me, I can't write that way. I become too much of a perfectionist when I decide to really work on something. If it becomes too complex I either stall out or I endlessly revise because I don't like how something feels or get bored yet can't force myself to move on. Make no mistake, I don't think it's bad, I just don't think it's for me or necessary to write litRPG as it is now.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

To me litRPG is losing its specificity and has become more of genre.

Then in a way we agree. I posit that if a story is to be a LitRPG, there are elements that must come front and center.

I can't say I like it, but as it is now, I don't think litRPG is limited to in depth systems or a heavy focus on the system.

It is not, but I am of the unproven and untested opinion that what the readers want IS that very thing.

Many don't even have a party of characters and instead just have one who makes friends but doesn't adventure with them which further expands it.

I am uncertain if that is needed. In fact, I have not seen such a concept explored, anywhere, really. I think if someone was to have a GROUP of people Isekai into a LitRPG and work together as a Team (I suspect your best bet would be The "5-man band" Trope), they might find that they are "ground breaking". So if you are looking at writing a LitRPG, dear future reader, perhaps you might wish to explore this.

That said, I think solo LitRPG is the current mainstay of the Isekai Genre, so I think that is why there isn't a "party" in most LitRPG. Rather you have the MC and his "Cohort/Harem" depending on the slant of the author.

So while I do agree the basics of the system need to be solid, I don't think going super in depth is necessary for it to be litRPG.

Perhaps. Like all things, a story has many elements and the strength of one can carry another. For example, I liked the Capaldi Era of doctor who. The writing was SHIT, but the Actor did such a fine job he carried the show. He carried it like a boss. When they replaced him, the writing got worse, and the MC was weaker, thus leading to the 5 year shit show we just endured.

Can you go lite on the SYSTEM and still have a LitRPG? Of course. Can you have a romance that is lite on the romance? Of Course. Will it get eyeballs? Like all things, what makes up for your weakness in one area? A story must be taken as a holistic whole. Actually, when I posted up earlier my D20 D&D for Noobs article that I wrote so many years ago, I addressed this sort of thing in character creation.

Trap Number One: Making a character that doesn't fit the campaign. NO, not the party, the CAMPAIGN.

In many ways, the article does have application to MC creation and worth a read, IMHO.

Stuff like how many skill slots, how high levels and stats should be, if skills can level and evolve, how many classes. what type or if there are classes at all, etc., is super important to figure out, but It feels like the basics.

Indeed. I could make a LitRPG based on TWIRPS or Amber. TWIRPS has one stat (strength) and Amber doesn't use DICE. By far the two simpliest gaming systems every created and they both lean HEAVILY on the Game Master for making the game work. (Although, AmberMUSH is still going strong, I hear.) TWIRPS died out and was a novelty, yet Amber has a very dedicated fan base. Why? THE SETTING IS AWESOME. Oh god, I loved that setting. Mmm. Catnip. The system sucked.

So, in a way, two ways to prove my point. TWIRPS died, Amber lives. Why? Because the REST of the game is supported by the LORE in one case, and failed because Humor only takes you so far.

Beyond semantics, I believe we have a different writing philosophy.

Indeed.

When writing, I try to minimize my mistakes when starting something new and by keeping it simple whereas it sounds like you accept making more when new and then trying to learn more from it?

Eh... No. I... have a strange brain. Maybe I'm autistic. I made an encyclopedia about d20 3.0/3.5 for THE FUN OF IT. took 4 years. You got to be a special kind of fucked in the head to write an encyclopedia just because you like rules lawyering that much. It's also how I DMed my d20, how I ST my White Wolf, and how I GMed my Hero System. I just... remember strange and obscure details. So as I add stuff, it sticks. I just remember rules. Don't know why. Can't remember names or faces, but you want to argue about Monk Falling Damage and how it can be used offensively, I'm there for you.

So my writing style is, "Set up the rules, let the scenario run and write down the story as the equation resolves itself." Not for everyone.

For me, I can't write that way.

And you shouldn't. You should write your way.

I become too much of a perfectionist when I decide to really work on something.

If I may be so bold, that sounds like an excuse. Claiming to be too much of a perfectionist is just a way of saying, "I'm afraid". Nothing wrong with being afraid. I have argued in the past that Fear is the greatest emotion and far exceeds Love. I also state that Fear is a BETTER emotion than love. I won't go into a rant here about it, but fear is a very useful emotion, if you control it.

Harness your fear. Control it. Fear is a superpower and will allow you to achieve great things as long as you are fear's master, and not the other way around.

If it becomes too complex I either stall out or I endlessly revise because I don't like how something feels or get bored yet can't force myself to move on.

Fear of failure is fear that controls you. Set a time limit to finish a product, then DO IT. succeed or fail, it does not matter. It doesn't matter how much you win by, or how well you win, just that you FINISH. There is no shame in not being "good enough". Everyone is not good enough at more things then they are good enough. FAR MORE THINGS. How do you get better? You fail. You learn. You try and you fail.

Failure is not bad. Losing is bad. You only lose when you give up. THAT is a loss. We learn from failure so failure is good. When you give up, when you quit, that is the only way you can be defeated in these sorts of endevors. HALF-ASS IT. Just pound out SOMETHING. Get to the damn finish line and then say, "DONE." Even if it is crap, you completed that crap. You finished. That is not a loss. That is a success. Not much of one, but a success and one worthy of being proud of.

Why?

How many others give up? How many other stories lie broken and abandoned on the side of the road to success as a writer? Just finishing a story, no matter how bad it is, puts you in the top 1% of the PLANET. If it is somewhat logical and has internal consistency and you actually wrote it from your heart, god damn, you just moved into the top 0.1%.

That makes you in the top One Thousandth of Humanity. Out of 7 Billion, you are one of the top 7 million. What Shame is in that? Who cares if naysayers cast doubt upon your craft? You have beaten over 6.93 BILLION humans. I told you that you were wrong and you stood up for yourself. You know what that is?

Courage.

Courage is not the absence of fear, but the ability to act in spite of that fear. Courage is a rare thing these days. Hold onto that courage and stop doubting yourself. Doubt has it's place BEFORE you commit to attempting something. Doubt is important, BEFORE you begin a task. Once the task has begun, Doubt has no place. It is all in. Do or die. Doubt before you begin, but once you have committed to a course of action, all doubt does is waste your time and energy. You are either going to succeed or you will fail. Doubt only will increase the chance of failure.

Basically, it's measure twice, cut once. You doubt to make sure you have taken all precautions and "measured", but once you start cutting, doubt is only going to make you fuck up the cut. if you are cutting, JUST CUT. If you are writing, JUST WRITE. You will know if you succeeded or failed at the end, so any self-doubt at that point is useless. Instead turn that fear to courage and press on with all guns blazing. You'd be surprised how many times I pulled off the impossible, just because I screwed my courage to the sticking place, and just happened to get lucky. But I never would have had the CHANCE to be lucky, if I doubted myself.

You are not the best. Of course you aren't amazing. On a planet of 7 billion, the chances of you being the best are non-existent. The point isn't to compare yourself to anyone else, but to who you were yesterday. Ignore perfection. Shoot for Good Enough, and you will find you are more qualified than you could ever imagine at so many things.

Make no mistake, I don't think it's bad, I just don't think it's for me or necessary to write litRPG as it is now.

Understood.
Go with your strengths, is all I can say.

 

[ARedFox]

Then in a way we agree. I posit that if a story is to be a LitRPG, there are elements that must come front and center.


It is not, but I am of the unproven and untested opinion that what the readers want IS that very thing.


I am uncertain if that is needed. In fact, I have not seen such a concept explored, anywhere, really. I think if someone was to have a GROUP of people Isekai into a LitRPG and work together as a Team (I suspect your best bet would be The "5-man band" Trope), they might find that they are "ground breaking". So if you are looking at writing a LitRPG, dear future reader, perhaps you might wish to explore this.

That said, I think solo LitRPG is the current mainstay of the Isekai Genre, so I think that is why there isn't a "party" in most LitRPG. Rather you have the MC and his "Cohort/Harem" depending on the slant of the author.


Perhaps. Like all things, a story has many elements and the strength of one can carry another. For example, I liked the Capaldi Era of doctor who. The writing was SHIT, but the Actor did such a fine job he carried the show. He carried it like a boss. When they replaced him, the writing got worse, and the MC was weaker, thus leading to the 5 year shit show we just endured.

Can you go lite on the SYSTEM and still have a LitRPG? Of course. Can you have a romance that is lite on the romance? Of Course. Will it get eyeballs? Like all things, what makes up for your weakness in one area? A story must be taken as a holistic whole. Actually, when I posted up earlier my D20 D&D for Noobs article that I wrote so many years ago, I addressed this sort of thing in character creation.

Trap Number One: Making a character that doesn't fit the campaign. NO, not the party, the CAMPAIGN.

In many ways, the article does have application to MC creation and worth a read, IMHO.


Indeed. I could make a LitRPG based on TWIRPS or Amber. TWIRPS has one stat (strength) and Amber doesn't use DICE. By far the two simpliest gaming systems every created and they both lean HEAVILY on the Game Master for making the game work. (Although, AmberMUSH is still going strong, I hear.) TWIRPS died out and was a novelty, yet Amber has a very dedicated fan base. Why? THE SETTING IS AWESOME. Oh god, I loved that setting. Mmm. Catnip. The system sucked.

So, in a way, two ways to prove my point. TWIRPS died, Amber lives. Why? Because the REST of the game is supported by the LORE in one case, and failed because Humor only takes you so far.


Indeed.


Eh... No. I... have a strange brain. Maybe I'm autistic. I made an encyclopedia about d20 3.0/3.5 for THE FUN OF IT. took 4 years. You got to be a special kind of fucked in the head to write an encyclopedia just because you like rules lawyering that much. It's also how I DMed my d20, how I ST my White Wolf, and how I GMed my Hero System. I just... remember strange and obscure details. So as I add stuff, it sticks. I just remember rules. Don't know why. Can't remember names or faces, but you want to argue about Monk Falling Damage and how it can be used offensively, I'm there for you.

So my writing style is, "Set up the rules, let the scenario run and write down the story as the equation resolves itself." Not for everyone.


And you shouldn't. You should write your way.


If I may be so bold, that sounds like an excuse. Claiming to be too much of a perfectionist is just a way of saying, "I'm afraid". Nothing wrong with being afraid. I have argued in the past that Fear is the greatest emotion and far exceeds Love. I also state that Fear is a BETTER emotion than love. I won't go into a rant here about it, but fear is a very useful emotion, if you control it.

Harness your fear. Control it. Fear is a superpower and will allow you to achieve great things as long as you are fear's master, and not the other way around.


Fear of failure is fear that controls you. Set a time limit to finish a product, then DO IT. succeed or fail, it does not matter. It doesn't matter how much you win by, or how well you win, just that you FINISH. There is no shame in not being "good enough". Everyone is not good enough at more things then they are good enough. FAR MORE THINGS. How do you get better? You fail. You learn. You try and you fail.

Failure is not bad. Losing is bad. You only lose when you give up. THAT is a loss. We learn from failure so failure is good. When you give up, when you quit, that is the only way you can be defeated in these sorts of endevors. HALF-ASS IT. Just pound out SOMETHING. Get to the damn finish line and then say, "DONE." Even if it is crap, you completed that crap. You finished. That is not a loss. That is a success. Not much of one, but a success and one worthy of being proud of.

Why?

How many others give up? How many other stories lie broken and abandoned on the side of the road to success as a writer? Just finishing a story, no matter how bad it is, puts you in the top 1% of the PLANET. If it is somewhat logical and has internal consistency and you actually wrote it from your heart, god damn, you just moved into the top 0.1%.

That makes you in the top One Thousandth of Humanity. Out of 7 Billion, you are one of the top 7 million. What Shame is in that? Who cares if naysayers cast doubt upon your craft? You have beaten over 6.93 BILLION humans. I told you that you were wrong and you stood up for yourself. You know what that is?

Courage.

Courage is not the absence of fear, but the ability to act in spite of that fear. Courage is a rare thing these days. Hold onto that courage and stop doubting yourself. Doubt has it's place BEFORE you commit to attempting something. Doubt is important, BEFORE you begin a task. Once the task has begun, Doubt has no place. It is all in. Do or die. Doubt before you begin, but once you have committed to a course of action, all doubt does is waste your time and energy. You are either going to succeed or you will fail. Doubt only will increase the chance of failure.

Basically, it's measure twice, cut once. You doubt to make sure you have taken all precautions and "measured", but once you start cutting, doubt is only going to make you fuck up the cut. if you are cutting, JUST CUT. If you are writing, JUST WRITE. You will know if you succeeded or failed at the end, so any self-doubt at that point is useless. Instead turn that fear to courage and press on with all guns blazing. You'd be surprised how many times I pulled off the impossible, just because I screwed my courage to the sticking place, and just happened to get lucky. But I never would have had the CHANCE to be lucky, if I doubted myself.

You are not the best. Of course you aren't amazing. On a planet of 7 billion, the chances of you being the best are non-existent. The point isn't to compare yourself to anyone else, but to who you were yesterday. Ignore perfection. Shoot for Good Enough, and you will find you are more qualified than you could ever imagine at so many things.


Understood.
Go with your strengths, is all I can say.

Not quoting as I’m on a phone rn. Spoiler again to save space.

Spoiler: Phones hate RPG, litRPG, etc until you force it in.

To some extend being a perfectionist is an excuse. I tend to put my heart into things too much so when I inevitably fall short in some manner it hurts much more. Always been that way for me. Somewhat ironically, I am not afraid to admit, I lack courage.

And to some extent it’s not. I feel this strange obligation to fix what bugs me. And a lot bugs me when I care about something. Even when I know I won’t show it to anyone.
It’s knowing it doesn’t feel right and I can make it better and I want to. It’s a kind of obsession for me. Once I feel something’s off I won’t stop thinking about it even when I am not writing. I do it with other stuff beyond writing as well.

And if I don’t care about my writing and just let it out, then I find myself wanting to do other things. A catch born out of a lack of courage and a weird mentality. Also doesn’t help that writing has never been that appealing to me. I find it more interesting to think of possible stories or paths and go about my day than to sit down and actually write one.

My example with Litrpg not being one person was completely dog shit. What I grew up with was RPGs with family or with multiple characters controlled by the same person. Obviously there were single player RPGs at the time but I didn’t grow up with them. Still no idea why I thought it was a good argument to add. Probably just forgot about the single player ones.

What I more meant to imply was RPG and litRPG has changed and expanded so much and continues to do so. It’s so stupidly vague at this point a story having a system that appears on average once every 20 chapters might qualify in someone’s mind for litPRG. Granted I would question it, but it’s totally possible.

As for what readers expect when they see litRPG, my bet is a vague impression of a system and adventure. Nothing specific. Or perhaps that’s just my own and I’m imposing it upon others. Perhaps those who read a more broad variety have something closer my view and those that read generally one type interpret it different. Truly hard to know with all the different possible combinations of echo chambers people end up in and the unique interests people have.