How bad are bad guys?

wresch

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Something I have been seeing in my writing lately. I create good characters and bad, always some tension. But I find I am giving my bad guys a bit of virtue. I don't just give them some backstory excuse - see why he's bad? Look at his/her childhood. Yes, things might have gone wrong for them, but I don't make that the center of their character (part of it, but not all of it). I make them take responsibility for their actions. But here's what I am noticing - I find I have them take some action that shows some humanity. Not something I planned, but something I have been doing more lately. Maybe I just want less evil in my books. Maybe I want more complex characters. Can't say I have some deep motivation. Just find it is something I am doing.

Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?
 

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RepresentingPride

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No.

Writing the "bad guys" with a dark past doesn't make them complex characters. It's just one of the easiest ways to have your readers empathize with them or at least understand what they do.

Most of my "bad guys" are bad due to their choices, not what happened to them in the past. They are just crazy or want something for their own good and don't give a fuck about others, or in some cases, are from enemy races. In their viewpoint, what they do is normal cause it's war.
 
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Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?
No, I dont or have stopped writing good guys and bad guys, I just write people with opposing or conflicting goals.
 

Assurbanipal_II

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Something I have been seeing in my writing lately. I create good characters and bad, always some tension. But I find I am giving my bad guys a bit of virtue. I don't just give them some backstory excuse - see why he's bad? Look at his/her childhood. Yes, things might have gone wrong for them, but I don't make that the center of their character (part of it, but not all of it). I make them take responsibility for their actions. But here's what I am noticing - I find I have them take some action that shows some humanity. Not something I planned, but something I have been doing more lately. Maybe I just want less evil in my books. Maybe I want more complex characters. Can't say I have some deep motivation. Just find it is something I am doing.

Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?
Good and bad are categories of ethics, not of story telling.
 

Corty

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My main bad guys are usually people who think they are better than the rest. Why? It is a great feeling as a reader to see them fail and get curb-stomped because they are smug bastards.

I don't really write my main baddies as complex anti-heroes who just happen to be the MC's enemies.

No.

They are full-on schmucks, the type you can meet in real life, and you want to punch them in the face after a few sentences. You all know the type... Why? Because then, you can enjoy reading about their eventual fall to the MC's powers/plots/etc. Because that is fun. I want to entertain my readers and, well, myself and not write the next Macbeth.
 

RepresentingWrath

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My main bad guys are usually people who think they are better than the rest. Why? It is a great feeling as a reader to see them fail and get curb-stomped because they are smug bastards.

I don't really write my main baddies as complex anti-heroes who just happen to be the MC's enemies.

No.

They are full-on schmucks, the type you can meet in real life, and you want to punch them in the face after a few sentences. You all know the type... Why? Because then, you can enjoy reading about their eventual fall to the MC's powers/plots/etc. Because that is fun. I want to entertain my readers and, well, myself and not write the next Macbeth.
supremely based corty :blob_shade:
 

Terrate

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It somehow came to the point that an evil guy just being an evil guy with no sad backstory or any trauma to why he's bad, feels more rare and interesting. Like being evil for the sake of evil kind of deal. Not one of those trying to be evil in a comedic way, as in literal evil; kill women, grind their infants, burn their pets alive, why are they doing this? why not.

Actually feels more scary to see such evil that it feels like an unstoppable force of nature.
 

TwoApes

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Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?

You make an implicit assumption that evil is either evil 'for the lolz', or is a result of some sort trauma. Which in turn implicitly assumes evil being illogical. Which is, of course, a valid option. Just not the only one. Consider this:

- do evil in order to prevent much greater evil
- do evil in order to prevent a natural/magical catastrophe from occurring
- operate on a different ethical system and what MC sees as evil is just business as usual or even an act of mercy
- do evil because of incomplete knowledge of the situation at hand
- do evil because of incompetence, prejudice or malice. Bonus points for prejudice/malice being justified by some sort of generational trauma.

Of course, you can mix/match or add your own. Like:

Psychotic native american shaman who, due to generational trauma, hates white people and burns a town, killing hundreds. The town was built on a graveyard of the tribe of the shaman. Reason for the burning was that spirits of the buried were furious and threatened the tribe of the shaman, which would kill hundrends. Actually threatened - because fantasy world.

Generally evil emerges from good intentions. The stakes for the MC are higher when the antagonist has a point to their actions.
 
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TsumiHokiro

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Something I have been seeing in my writing lately. I create good characters and bad, always some tension. But I find I am giving my bad guys a bit of virtue. I don't just give them some backstory excuse - see why he's bad? Look at his/her childhood. Yes, things might have gone wrong for them, but I don't make that the center of their character (part of it, but not all of it). I make them take responsibility for their actions. But here's what I am noticing - I find I have them take some action that shows some humanity. Not something I planned, but something I have been doing more lately. Maybe I just want less evil in my books. Maybe I want more complex characters. Can't say I have some deep motivation. Just find it is something I am doing.

Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?

Foremost, I think you are mistaken here. You are confusing two things: "Bad" and "Evil". Also, you have a very simplistic notion of the "Good" vs "Evil" dilemma, whereas your practice of this dilemma is not so simple.

I'll start by the "good" vs "bad". You asked us how "bad" we were. Well, "bad" is an adjective of quality, not of morality, while "evil" is the proper adjective you are asking for. There can be "bad" guys who are not "evil" and there can be "bad" guys who are "evil" in a story. When we call someone a "bad" guy, we are saying they failed expectations, and not that they have turned into doing the wrong.
If you are asking us how "bad" we are, you are asking us how bad of an apple we are. Not asking how many crimes we have done.

Now, let us talk about the duality: "Good" vs "Evil". There are many, many, MANY notions of what constitute this duality. In fact, this will probably be an ever going debate in Philosophy, because humans can just never decide what is a proper way of looking at life. Well, humans are ever-changing as well, so you might forgive them for that. But I digress. Back on topic. The way you expected your evil characters to behave, "not less evil", reminded me of a notion called "moral dualism", where they are eternally opposed to doing good, whereas your good characters eternally opposed to doing evil.

For reasons only you are aware, such a notion has failed to be feasible. And now you have resorted to a notion of the dilemma which you do find more understandable, one which you use to comprehend your day-to-day life. Which is quite understandable, actually. You never had in your heart a complete understanding of why the "moral dualism" was possible, or if you had, it was never your initial proposal when you started making the novel to portray such complex ideas, because to be fair, to describe ideas which were popular hundreds of years ago on a novel without a very specific public would end up being a VERY ARDUOUS task indeed.

As for myself, I never had problems with this dilemma. From the beginning, my novel is intended to explore such dilemmas, therefore, the more my characters debate with themselves about their actions, the more I have to write.
 
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QuercusMalus

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There is a place for both. Absolute evil characters have been a staple of great stories for ages. Sauron and Morgoth from Tolkiens works come to mind.

There is also a case for more nuanced characters, the ones who are the Villain but still have some good traits. If done well, you can make the reader have an 'aww shit' moment when they realize they were rooting for the bad guy. If done badly, your 'hero' can end up being more villainous.

I don't understand the need to give every Villain a tragic backstory. This is why I have never and will never watch the joker movies. As a Villain he is better without the backstory, because you imagine what happened.
 

Rezcore

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I'm kind of tired of bad guys having a moral or even relatable reason why. I love a bad guy that is just an bad guy, like the Doctor's rival the Master.
 

ReadLight

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Something I have been seeing in my writing lately. I create good characters and bad, always some tension. But I find I am giving my bad guys a bit of virtue. I don't just give them some backstory excuse - see why he's bad? Look at his/her childhood. Yes, things might have gone wrong for them, but I don't make that the center of their character (part of it, but not all of it). I make them take responsibility for their actions. But here's what I am noticing - I find I have them take some action that shows some humanity. Not something I planned, but something I have been doing more lately. Maybe I just want less evil in my books. Maybe I want more complex characters. Can't say I have some deep motivation. Just find it is something I am doing.

Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?
Personally, I try to give at least some dimensions to my important antagonists. Explaining their motivation behind their choices that makes them 'bad'. That is, if the character is an important one.

As for making them less bad. I at least do not intend to do that. I feel like I should not be balancing a scale or good vs bad when writing a character, but rather that I should just write out the character, show case them, and leave the judgement on whether they are good or bad to the readers.

For minor characters, I won't bother. This minor antagonist who will only exist for this short section of the story is just bad. No need for any more depth than that. He/she/it won't ever show up again after this section.
 

hippoman

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A hero in someone's story is the villain in another. Even the bad guys have friends right? and they would not have friends if they were just massive assholes made up of spite and evil 24/7. Most of my bad guys arn't truly evil, rather they are just people, trying to make their way in the world, working towards their own goals that may at times go against the interests of the protagonists.

On a similar note: I enjoy making good guys not bad per say, but not liked by the protagonist. Not in a "ah, they are my rival" kinda way, but in a "I am a human being. I don't have to like everyone, and i don't like that asshole, even if they like me." kinda way. Not everyone has to forgive everyone.
 

BearlyAlive

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That's why I always advocate for more cartoonishly evil bad guys. They have all the good points of a tragic villain while also keeping all the good points of a real badass villain. Until you dial them both up to 1080°...

There aren't many people who can use the line: "I have created multidimensional ghost shark robots to get my revenge" without sounding cringe.
 

Underload

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Give your bad guys a good backstory. It's even better if the bad guy grows along with the good guy. Even more so if they are friends.
 

TheKillingAlice

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Something I have been seeing in my writing lately. I create good characters and bad, always some tension. But I find I am giving my bad guys a bit of virtue. I don't just give them some backstory excuse - see why he's bad? Look at his/her childhood. Yes, things might have gone wrong for them, but I don't make that the center of their character (part of it, but not all of it). I make them take responsibility for their actions. But here's what I am noticing - I find I have them take some action that shows some humanity. Not something I planned, but something I have been doing more lately. Maybe I just want less evil in my books. Maybe I want more complex characters. Can't say I have some deep motivation. Just find it is something I am doing.

Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?
So, I don't know if that's an unpopular opinion or what, but having characters be "good" or "evil" is something very childish to say. You would have that in a literal children's story, because children don't have the mental capacity to think themselves into other people's positions and understand their motivations. Now, would I feel cheated if a story geared towards an audience older than 5 years showed me a character that's doing bad things just because he selfishly wants something or because he wants to see the world burn a bit? No, I wouldn't. But it shouldn't be overwhelming and only works for simple stories or short arcs within a story, unless whatever they truly want is so grand, it makes sense to kick up a fuss about it.
Overall, people function with cause and effect. Every character has to function like a human being and most human beings aren't evil for the sake of being evil. Not all of them have had a bad childhood per se, but simply something happening in before the story started - childhood or not - that made them act the way they do. Have they been wronged, hurt, angered, or did they simply lose faith, hope or desire for something? Are they trying to do good from their own perspective or do they know it's bad for everyone involved?

To sum it up: Every "bad" character will have traits that aren't. I would feel more complicated about the stories you are telling, if your characters didn't grow and didn't have anything going for them, other than their superficial moral position.
 

wresch

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Wow. Great responses. Thanks to all of you. I can see you really work on your characters.
 

ThrillingHuman

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Something I have been seeing in my writing lately. I create good characters and bad, always some tension. But I find I am giving my bad guys a bit of virtue. I don't just give them some backstory excuse - see why he's bad? Look at his/her childhood. Yes, things might have gone wrong for them, but I don't make that the center of their character (part of it, but not all of it). I make them take responsibility for their actions. But here's what I am noticing - I find I have them take some action that shows some humanity. Not something I planned, but something I have been doing more lately. Maybe I just want less evil in my books. Maybe I want more complex characters. Can't say I have some deep motivation. Just find it is something I am doing.

Anyone else find they are making their bad guys less totally bad?
Depends. I have a weird look at morality where I can forgive people for literally eating babies but I will find someone absolutely irredeemable if they do specific things.
Blame my flawed public education.
 
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