Writing Hope vs Destruction

[J_Chemist]

Hello all,

I come with a question and would like to hear your thoughts.

In my recent chapter of my novel, the MC and residents of an underground village are able to stave off obliteration by a much stronger and foul enemy. This is largely due to the MC returning to the village "just in time". Along with his small group of warriors, he is able to assist the defenders in killing off the remaining threat and save the village.

However, it seems... cheap. I've made it a point in my novel to not quite follow the typical plot routes one might expect. Not in the sense that I want to go against the grain with everything I do, but I do like to embrace the fact that the ideal ending is not always the ending we get. Reality is far less gentle and accepting the fact that a lot of people are going to die and meet their end should be less glossed over and more expected. Hence, with this ending, I feel like I've lined up the shot for the bullseye to be hit with the archer standing literally right in front of the target, only for them to still miss somehow.

Before this climactic chapter, I already highlighted that the entire village has been wiped out infrastructure wise, about 70% of the village population is either dead or in some state of physical misery, and those remaining will have a long road of hardship ahead. So there is plenty of negativity in the air that will follow the climax-moment.

But here's the question. Does it need to be worse?

The alternative is the MC arriving a tad too late. Not so much as everyone is now dead and he's returned to literally a corpse party, but 5 minutes late. The final line of defense is broken, the enemy is through the main force, and they're about to start breaking into the blockaded locations where the civilians are being protected. This ending ups the final damage toll from 70% casualty rate to around 90%, along with several additional side character deaths.

The current ending has the "hope prevails" taste.
The alternative ending has the "at what cost?" sort of taste. Both are attractive, but I'm not sure which hits better.

What do you think? Thoughts and opinions are appreciate.

 

[melchi]

Personally, unless the MC knows about when the attack is happening, showing up just in time seems like cheating.

Is the stronger enemy one unit? If so how much stronger than the village people is it? Case where it could be one boss 100 lower leveled types could chip away at said enemy.

I'm not sure what is better because I don't know all the details.

 

[J_Chemist]

Personally, unless the MC knows about when the attack is happening, showing up just in time seems like cheating.

Is the stronger enemy one unit? If so how much stronger than the village people is it? Case where it could be one boss 100 lower leveled types could chip away at said enemy.

I'm not sure what is better because I don't know all the details.

The enemy is sort of like monsters. They'd give your typical adventurer a run for their money. The residents of the village are weaker and smaller. The enemy is also more numerous. The enemy is definitely overwhelmingly more capable and will 100% massacre the village. The village is literally in pieces because of it and has lived under constant threat during its entire existence.

The village only survives because the MC gets back in time.

Some context for that "gets back";

> MC and an assault force from the village left prior to the village attack in order to attack the Enemy Nest. (The defenders left behind are also less experienced, not well equipped, and in general less capable. Hence why they're left behind.)
> The leader at the enemy nest staged a splinter force near the village with the intent of raiding the village when the Assault Force attacked his nest.
> When the MC arrived at the nest, the messenger was sent to the splinter force.
> While attacking the nest, the village was also attacked. Both assaults happened relatively close to each other. Maybe 10 minutes of difference since the messenger had to run to the splinter force, and then they had to run to the village.
> MC killed the Captain after a duel and then had to fight the rest of the nest for another 5-10 minutes or so in order to get his platoon out.
> MC and the platoon then had to run down the tunnel back to the village.

So there's a lot of time that happens in between when the MC is able to actually begin to help. And while the village defenders could hold out for some time, it would be a very one-sided affair and not in their favor.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

The real question is:
What sort of message do you as the author want to send to the reader? Which lines up with the philosophy of the story better? Why are your readers reading it?

I cannot accurately answer these questions. I can only give my opinion which is completely disconnected from your story.

What is their hope rooted in? Is it something vapid or is it based on something?
A vain vague hope is not something I like seeing at the end of a story. It would be better to have a decisive ending like destruction in that case.

 

[Syringe]

Pyrrhic victories are a tough one. I think it depends on how dark your story is/has been so far. If you do go down the dark route of 'at what cost' then you need proper ramifications. It can start off as an 'at what cost', and move up to 'hope prevails' later down the story when things get better (i.e, MC revisits and sees that things are returning despite the loss. Villages can comment on the past, but also state that the future looks brighter this time around).

 

[J_Chemist]

The real question is:
What sort of message do you as the author want to send to the reader? Which lines up with the philosophy of the story better? Why are your readers reading it?

I cannot accurately answer these questions. I can only give my opinion which is completely disconnected from your story.

What is their hope rooted in? Is it something vapid or is it based on something?
A vain vague hope is not something I like seeing at the end of a story. It would be better to have a decisive ending like destruction in that case.

That was my thinking as well. An ending that is conclusive and lands in the realm of actuality. Hope and faith are tangible elements that I like to leave as things the characters think about but don't ever quite get to experience because of the harsh truth put before their eyes.

I've found myself leaning more into that in terms of message, as well. The idea that while victory and success can be achieved, there is cost to the decisions and choices made. What that cost is in terms of weight depends on what is willing to be sacrificed.

 

[Domoviye]

Both endings seem somewhat typical.
Have him arrive just in time, but the enemy spots him and sends out a rear guard to hold him off while they push even harder against the village defenders.
They slow him down, the bad guys breach the final barricade before the hero can get past the rear guard. Then he has to face the entire army by himself.
He wins, there aren't as many deaths among the villagers, but he could be gravely wounded, he'll have to wonder if he had just fought a little harder if he could have saved more, and the villagers will still see him as their saviour, even as he's dealing with his guilt.

 

[J_Chemist]

Pyrrhic victories are a tough one. I think it depends on how dark your story is/has been so far. If you do go down the dark route of 'at what cost' then you need proper ramifications. It can start off as an 'at what cost', and move up to 'hope prevails' later down the story when things get better (i.e, MC revisits and sees that things are returning despite the loss. Villages can comment on the past, but also state that the future looks brighter this time around).

Certainly like this. The MC will definitely be coming across certain individuals within this Arc of the story again so the "look back" moments can carry that ray of hope as compared to the depression within the current moment. But also, yes. I think I'm teetering on more of "how much is too much?" in terms of the blood cost for victory. I feel that if I go beyond where I'm at, absolute destruction is simply the only answer. As anything less than that may come across as thin and cowardice on my part for not wanting to cross that line.

Both endings seem somewhat typical.
Have him arrive just in time, but the enemy spots him and sends out a rear guard to hold him off while they push even harder against the village defenders.
They slow him down, the bad guys breach the final barricade before the hero can get past the rear guard. Then he has to face the entire army by himself.
He wins, there aren't as many deaths among the villagers, but he could be gravely wounded, he'll have to wonder if he had just fought a little harder if he could have saved more, and the villagers will still see him as their saviour, even as he's dealing with his guilt.

I considered this, actually. However the MC is well above the enemy in terms of strength and magic ability. If they turn to face him, he'll just wipe them off and clear the slate. If they engage in the defensive force and intermingle with the civilians, he can't use AOE-Type magic and needs to get into the mix. But I do like the idea of adding that additional injury.

 

[melchi]

If a bunch of well established NPCs loose their life while the assault force heads back it is going to be really rough. But yeah, like syringe said it mostly depends on how dark is okay.

 

[J_Chemist]

If a bunch of well established NPCs loose their life while the assault force heads back it is going to be really rough. But yeah, like syringe said it mostly depends on how dark is okay.

This pen is not gentle.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

Enoshima Junko-chan~!

 

[J_Chemist]

Enoshima Junko-chan~!

huh?

 

[ThrillingHuman]

huh?

It's a reference to a character moment in a game franchize with themes of hope v. despair - anyway, don't bother with it

 

[Aiyoki]

Are the enemies above using the villagers and civilians to thwart the MC's ability to fight them?

Would the denizens of evil know and use the Hero's weakness against him? IE: They know he's there to "save" as many people as possible so the enemy uses the citizens in an underhanded tactic to bait the hero into reckless action which puts him in a potential state of moral dilhema. MC tries to fight off the enemies but they're using civilians as human shields to deter his ability to go all in with his power/abilities. But at the same time, not ending the fight as quickly as possible increases the number of casualties that ultimately pile up.

 

[FaustVoncleave]

Hello all,

I come with a question and would like to hear your thoughts.

In my recent chapter of my novel, the MC and residents of an underground village are able to stave off obliteration by a much stronger and foul enemy. This is largely due to the MC returning to the village "just in time". Along with his small group of warriors, he is able to assist the defenders in killing off the remaining threat and save the village.

However, it seems... cheap. I've made it a point in my novel to not quite follow the typical plot routes one might expect. Not in the sense that I want to go against the grain with everything I do, but I do like to embrace the fact that the ideal ending is not always the ending we get. Reality is far less gentle and accepting the fact that a lot of people are going to die and meet their end should be less glossed over and more expected. Hence, with this ending, I feel like I've lined up the shot for the bullseye to be hit with the archer standing literally right in front of the target, only for them to still miss somehow.

Before this climactic chapter, I already highlighted that the entire village has been wiped out infrastructure wise, about 70% of the village population is either dead or in some state of physical misery, and those remaining will have a long road of hardship ahead. So there is plenty of negativity in the air that will follow the climax-moment.

But here's the question. Does it need to be worse?

The alternative is the MC arriving a tad too late. Not so much as everyone is now dead and he's returned to literally a corpse party, but 5 minutes late. The final line of defense is broken, the enemy is through the main force, and they're about to start breaking into the blockaded locations where the civilians are being protected. This ending ups the final damage toll from 70% casualty rate to around 90%, along with several additional side character deaths.

The current ending has the "hope prevails" taste.
The alternative ending has the "at what cost?" sort of taste. Both are attractive, but I'm not sure which hits better.

What do you think? Thoughts and opinions are appreciate.

Frankly, if the casualty rate is already 70% you don't need to increase it any further. That's already a hard fought battle. Just focus a bit more on those who passed away in the following chapters to show this is a somber moment and not simply a huge victory. If it comes off as a hope prevails instead of a silver lining, then you're framing it off given the context.

 

[forli]

How absurd have the standards for nameless background character death in web novels gotten if a 70% civilian casualty rate is the 'hope prevails' option and not enough to show that 'reality is not kind'?

 

[J_Chemist]

Are the enemies above using the villagers and civilians to thwart the MC's ability to fight them?

Would the denizens of evil know and use the Hero's weakness against him? IE: They know he's there to "save" as many people as possible so the enemy uses the citizens in an underhanded tactic to bait the hero into reckless action which puts him in a potential state of moral dilhema. MC tries to fight off the enemies but they're using civilians as human shields to deter his ability to go all in with his power/abilities. But at the same time, not ending the fight as quickly as possible increases the number of casualties that ultimately pile up.

The enemy is certainly too stupid for that. They're akin to zombies in the sense that all they do is feed and search for the next meal. There is a semblance of intelligence, as shown with their ability to adapt, change, and sort of organize themselves, but it's a super slow development process. They aren't there yet where they're taking human shields.

How absurd have the standards for nameless background character death in web novels gotten if a 70% civilian casualty rate is the 'hope prevails' option and not enough to show that 'reality is not kind'?

How absurd of you to white knight a mindset when you have barely any context to the overall grimdark scenario in the plot. Don't generalize my story with everyone else's. Mine is an outlier and I like it that way. If you like having your heroes arrive to save the day, kiss the children, and be rays of shining light, you are welcome to read other stories.

 

[Lloyd]

There is an opportunity cost. In this way, destruction can give birth to creation, but in the same way creation always gives birth to destruction. The invention of the car destroyed the horse. While you may say this is an improvement, you cannot deny that something was lost, and often times progress creates unintended consequences. In this way total destruction is almost a blessing, since you've got nothing left to destroy. This is why war always brings such great and profound changes. It is your choice based on the tone of your story if you should focus on the destruction, which itself is an almost inevitability, either through war or the march of time, or the creation and promise of something new.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

Hello all,

I come with a question and would like to hear your thoughts.

In my recent chapter of my novel, the MC and residents of an underground village are able to stave off obliteration by a much stronger and foul enemy. This is largely due to the MC returning to the village "just in time". Along with his small group of warriors, he is able to assist the defenders in killing off the remaining threat and save the village.

However, it seems... cheap. I've made it a point in my novel to not quite follow the typical plot routes one might expect. Not in the sense that I want to go against the grain with everything I do, but I do like to embrace the fact that the ideal ending is not always the ending we get. Reality is far less gentle and accepting the fact that a lot of people are going to die and meet their end should be less glossed over and more expected. Hence, with this ending, I feel like I've lined up the shot for the bullseye to be hit with the archer standing literally right in front of the target, only for them to still miss somehow.

Before this climactic chapter, I already highlighted that the entire village has been wiped out infrastructure wise, about 70% of the village population is either dead or in some state of physical misery, and those remaining will have a long road of hardship ahead. So there is plenty of negativity in the air that will follow the climax-moment.

But here's the question. Does it need to be worse?

The alternative is the MC arriving a tad too late. Not so much as everyone is now dead and he's returned to literally a corpse party, but 5 minutes late. The final line of defense is broken, the enemy is through the main force, and they're about to start breaking into the blockaded locations where the civilians are being protected. This ending ups the final damage toll from 70% casualty rate to around 90%, along with several additional side character deaths.

The current ending has the "hope prevails" taste.
The alternative ending has the "at what cost?" sort of taste. Both are attractive, but I'm not sure which hits better.

What do you think? Thoughts and opinions are appreciate.

make it like 40k. A grim reality

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Hope for destruction.

See, the problem is, what is realistic? You got zombies. Either the good guys will out think them, or get slaughtered. Your telling g me 70% fatality rate on a village. Uhh... that makes no sense.

Percentage of fighters is most likely, if we are going with European ambient pre-gunpowder, would be about 1% of the village with 30% being farmers who know how to swing a pike. After that, you have about 30% way too old to be of any use and children, with the remaining 39% being women in reasonable health to pick up children and run.

If you have the village caught off guard, then you are looking at nobody escaping, especially if it's a night raid. If the 31% of the actually able to fight don't defeat the zombies, the rest of the village is dead.

Maybe one or two hide and don't get found, or maybe a few run away, but once you pass the able fighting men threshold, the rest are dead.

The town will put its strongest out first. If they lose, there is no attrition warfare. Once the men are dead, everyone is dead.

70% is too much. Either they fight them off with 0 to 30% fatality, or it's TPK. IN YOUR WORDS a much stronger and foul enemy. Once the defenses are breached, the enemy will have parity and the numbers show the village is toast.

So either the defenses hold until the MC shows up, or the town is dead. The chances of the town being at 70% dead or crippled when the MC arrives is astronomical. Just as likely as him showing up just in time.

Either actually write up the stats for both sides and dice it out, or go with the dramatic combat system. In dramatic combat, if you are boring, you're dead.