High Fantasy or Isekai?

[beast_regards]

Fantasy is an overarching genre, but isekai and high fantasy are two clearly defined and separate subgenres. Yes, LOTR and TLTWATW are both fantasy, but the way their stories play out separates them into their respective subgenres. Nobody from the "real" world is sent to Middle Earth, so LOTR is not an isekai. The Pevensie siblings begin the story in our world before being sent to Narnia, so it is not high fantasy. Point out what the two franchises have in common all you want, that doesn't change what they are any more than saying Star Wars is hard sci-fi because Star Trek has space ships too.

Considering that the Middle Earth is supposed to be an Earth past, I would say everyone is sent to the Middle Earth.

Movie adaptations even feel like isekai (though I admit it's unintentional)

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

Considering that the Middle Earth is supposed to be an Earth past, I would say everyone is sent to the Middle Earth.

Movie adaptations even feel like isekai (though I admit it's unintentional)

Splitting hairs like this doesn't help your argument. If we were to use your definition, then we would need to throw away the concept of "isekai" and "portal fantasy" entirely, because according to you all it takes to be labeled high fantasy is that a fantasy world *exists* within the story.

In fact, let's take a closer look at your list of rules...

Setting different that ours, metaphysically connected to ours

Hogwarts and Camp Half Blood fit this description.

Magic is the forefront in the series

Harry Potter and Percy Jackson both fit this description.

Scale is an epic battle of good against evil

Harry Potter and Percy Jackson both fit this description.

Morality is strictly black and white

Harry Potter and Percy Jackson both fit this description.

So by your own logic, two of the most famous examples of urban fantasy must now be recategorized as high fantasy, putting them alongside stories like Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, and Stormlight Archive. Do you see why using the things they have in common to claim they're the same type of story doesn't make any sense now?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I think I'm on someone's Ignore list.

It's okay, the pain will go away eventually.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

I prefer Fantasy. I like magic. I'm simple vampire.

 

[beast_regards]

So by your own logic, two of the most famous examples of urban fantasy must now be recategorized as high fantasy, putting them alongside stories like Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, and Stormlight Archive. Do you see why using the things they have in common to claim they're the same type of story doesn't make any sense now?

The High Fantasy is the setting.
The Urban Fantasy is the setting.
The Portal Fantasy is the hero origin story.
The Urban Fantasy doesn't operate under the same logic as the High Fantasy. The Urban Fantasy in fact doesn't always include the protagonist being taken or introduced to the hidden magical world, in many cases, they are aware of it from the start. Cases in which aren't aware are, however, similar to the Portal Fantasy.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

The High Fantasy is the setting.
The Urban Fantasy is the setting.
The Portal Fantasy is the hero origin story.

Now you're just making up new rules to support the rules that you, yourself, made up earlier. I already explained how this works: High Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, and Portal Fantasy are subgenres that split off from the overarching Fantasy genre. They are all fantasy, and because of that they may share similarities with each other, but each subgenre is still clearly defined and separated from the others by the basic guidelines that make up those subgenres.

"High" is not a setting, unless you're going to tell me that every single High Fantasy story secretly takes place on top of a mountain. And I know you're not going to tell me that every High Fantasy world is so similar that they can all be adequately summed up under a single word like "high." That would, again, be like saying that Star Wars and Star Trek are the same genre because "space ships."

"Urban" can be a setting, yes, but Urban Fantasy is specifically a fantasy story that takes place in the real world. Usually in the form of a hidden civilization that exists in secret under normal society's nose, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Saying that "Portal Fantasy" only exists as an origin story for the hero makes no sense at all. It defines how the hero views and interacts with the world they're in throughout the entire story, which in turn shapes how the story is told and plays out. Someone who was born in that world is going to act and think extremely differently than someone who was thrown into it unexpectedly. If Lord of the Rings was an isekai, it would be entirely unrecognizable as the story that it currently is, and that's why claiming that isekais and high fantasies are the same thing makes no sense.

The Urban Fantasy doesn't operate under the same logic as the High Fantasy. The Urban Fantasy in fact doesn't always include the protagonist being taken or introduced to the hidden magical world, in many cases, they are aware of it from the start. Cases in which aren't aware are, however, similar to the Portal Fantasy.

None of this is relevant to the conversation at all.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Now you're just making up new rules to support the rules that you, yourself, made up earlier. I already explained how this works: High Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, and Portal Fantasy are subgenres that split out from the overarching Fantasy genre.

"High" is not a setting, unless you're going to tell me that every single High Fantasy story secretly takes place on top of a mountain. And I know you're not going to tell me that every High Fantasy world is so similar that they can all be adequately summed up under a single word like 'high." That would, again, be like saying that Star Wars and Star Trek are the same genre because "space ships."

"Urban" can be a setting, yes, but Urban Fantasy is specifically a fantasy story that takes place in the real world. Usually in the form of a hidden civilization that exists in secret under normal society's nose, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Saying that "Portal Fantasy" only exists as an origin story for the hero makes no sense at all. It defines how the hero views and interacts with the world they're in throughout the entire story, which in turn shapes how the story is told and plays out. Someone who was born in that world is going to act and think extremely differently than someone who was thrown into it unexpectedly. If Lord of the Rings was an isekai, it would be entirely unrecognizable as the story that it currently is, and that's why claiming that isekais and high fantasies are the same thing makes no sense.


None of this is relevant to the conversation at all.

High fantasy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Low fantasy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[beast_regards]

"High" is not a setting, unless you're going to tell me that every single High Fantasy story secretly takes place on top of a mountain. And I know you're not going to tell me that every High Fantasy world is so similar that they can all be adequately summed up under a single word like 'high." That would, again, be like saying that Star Wars and Star Trek are the same genre because "space ships."

So, if the protagonist from our world appears in the world of Star Trek, is it Portal Fantasy or Portal Sci-fi?

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

So, if the protagonist from our world appears in the world of Star Trek, is it Portal Fantasy or Portal Sci-fi?

Neither, because I had chicken strips for lunch, and you keep trying to derail the conversation with unrelated questions and information to hide the fact that you can't back up your own claims.

 

[beast_regards]

Neither, because I had chicken strips for lunch, and you keep trying to derail the conversation with unrelated information to hide the fact that you can't back up your own claims.

What I claim is that the fictional work could be more than one sub-genre at the same time.

Only defining factor of the isekai, is the "trapped in the other world" aspect, nothing more. It's even in the word. Portal Fantasy is the English translation equivalent.

It doesn't specify what that world is, or how would the story play out, or the overarching themes, tone, etc.

It only specifies the protagonist origin story.

Thus, it needs to be linked to another descriptor. Like High Fantasy, Low Fantasy, Sci-fi or what have you.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

What I claim is that the fictional work could be more than one sub-genre at the same time.

Only defining factor of the isekai, is the "trapped in the other world" aspect, nothing more. It's even in the word. Portal Fantasy is the English translation equivalent.

It doesn't specify what that world is, or how would the story play out, or the overarching themes, tone, etc.

It only specifies the protagonist origin story.

Thus, it needs to be linked to another descriptor. Like High Fantasy, Low Fantasy, Sci-fi or what have you.

I'm going to say this one more time, and then I'm done arguing with you. Whether you actually read it or just keep repeating the same arguments is up to you.

High fantasy takes place entirely in a fictional world, with no connection in any way to the real world. Portal fantasies and isekai are when a character from the real world is brought to an alternate fictional world. The existence of a fictional world in the story is irrelevant to the argument. The differentiating factor is whether the cast was born in the fictional world or if they were transported there from the real world.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Wait, didn't this already happen before?

 

[BearlyAlive]

Any Fantasy that isn't isekai or YA with a love triangle.

Wait, didn't this already happen before?

Welcome to the matrix. Where every other thread people argue about X or Y (not) being something because *insert arbitrary reason #420*.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Welcome to the matrix. Where every other thread people argue about X or Y (not) being something because *insert arbitrary reason #420*.

No-no, there was a similar thread, and OP there used similar rhetoric. Though, unlike ThisAdamGuy, that guy or girl was completely unhinged.

 

[beast_regards]

If Lord of the Rings was an isekai, it would be entirely unrecognizable as the story that it currently is, and that's why claiming that isekais and high fantasies are the same thing makes no sense.

It would.

The kids from the Chronicle of Narnia behave exactly as the High Fantasy story expects them to.

Their origin story doesn't play any other factor in the story other than providing the reason for the heroic protagonist self-doubt, something which Frodo in the Lord of the Rings does too, he doubts himself, otherwise they follow the narrative of the High Fantasy story perfectly. They don't try to be smart about it. They don't show any departure from the black and white morality of the story. Because they shouldn't. The High Fantasy requires heroic individuals with clearly defined white/good morality, and they act like ones, like Frodo.

If any character behaved differently, if the story logic would work differently, it wouldn't be High Fantasy.

No-no, there was a similar thread, and OP there used similar rhetoric. Though, unlike ThisAdamGuy, that guy or girl was completely unhinged.

Are you suggesting that we could act as the mature and reasonable people on the Internet?

That's crazy.

Why did no one tried it before?

 

[Iloveshovels]

both

 

[Puji-Maki]

Since most people here preferred High Fantasy, I'm going to go with the opposite just to be different. Yes, I like Low Sci-Fi.

 

[Alski]

I like my high fantasy a lot, regardless of being isekai or not ?

 

[Tegeli]

Since most people here preferred High Fantasy, I'm going to go with the opposite just to be different. Yes, I like Low Sci-Fi.

Sci-fi isn't the opposite of fantasy, just a sciencey flavour of it. Before some nerd tries to pick a fight about semantics of speculative fiction genrefication, do know that I am correct. A true connoisseur of contrarianism would be particular to sober literary fiction.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Sci-fi isn't the opposite of fantasy, just a sciencey flavour of it. Before some nerd tries to pick a fight about semantics of speculative fiction genrefication, do know that I am correct. A true connoisseur of contrarianism would be particular to sober literary fiction.

It was a joke brotherman.