Help with Commission Issues

[35c]

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, I'm sorry if its not.

While the anniversary competition was still going on, I wanted to enter so I thought to commission an artist on Deviantart to draw the cover for me. I paid upfront, which looking back was really stupid of me. The artist had one month to finish. I was sent two drafts (one of which was watermarked) before the artist stopped sending me updates. They missed their deadline but finally sent me an update three days after the deadline. They had made significant changes to the design, to the point where it didn't even look like the same character anymore. I asked them to fix it, but they refused. When trying to discuss with them failed, I tried opening a claim on Paypal using purchase protection. After a month of waiting, Paypal denied my claim because they don't cover "custom made" items.
I spent $150 dollars and at the end I never even got the finished artwork. And that's a lot of money for me, especially right now. Trying to resolve the issue also took so long that now the anniversary competition is over. I'm at a loss. I don't know what else I can do. Is there any other options for me? Or do I just have to cut my losses despite the fact that I was scammed.

Have any other writers had to deal with this? What did you guys do?

 

[Nanakawaichan]

I'm sorry for your loss (150$ for a cover is quite much). But the only way I know is to claim on PayPal. I never buy any cover directly from the artist, usually I buying in website like sketchmob to guarantee my cover is delivered on deadline.

 

[35c]

I'm sorry for your loss (150$ for a cover is quite much). But the only way I know is to claim on PayPal. I never buy any cover directly from the artist, usually I buying in website like sketchmob to guarantee my cover is delivered on deadline.

I didn't know any better. I only went to Deviantart because it was the only place I new artist took commissions.

 

[tiaf]

Sounds like a huge scam imo. Is the artist not even willing to reduce the price?
And it’s suspicious to not even give you the artwork that made for you.

If that person is reasonable, you should try to message them again. Add evidence. Remember to be neutral as much as possible and try to find a compromise (eg. willing to pay for the provided sketches), if they are not willing to refund you.

If they ignore you, then tell them that you will make it public otherwise (on their twitter, tumblr, dA page).

In the worst case you have to call them out in public. Not very nice, but they shouldn’t scam people.

 

[Jamminrabbit]

Going forward, it helps to look at their other social media sites/art sites, and wherever else they may be posting their portfolio. Artists uploading to Twitter and labeling commission work is a good sign. You can also search artists on r/ hungryartists, lemmasoft, itch.io, artstation, etc.

I work with visual novels so I've dealt with my fair share of scams. There's nothing you can really do about it except be better informed looking into the next artist/collaborator.

 

[35c]

Sounds like a huge scam imo. Is the artist not even willing to reduce the price?
And it’s suspicious to not even give you the artwork that made for you.

If that person is reasonable, you should try to message them again. Add evidence. Remember to be neutral as much as possible and try to find a compromise (eg. willing to pay for the provided sketches), if they are not willing to refund you.

If they ignore you, then tell them that you will make it public otherwise (on their twitter, tumblr, dA page).

In the worst case you have to call them out in public. Not very nice, but they shouldn’t scam people.

It's not like I didn't get any art. I got three drafts, the third of which was when they decided to change the design. And since they refused to change it back and I told them I didn't like the new design, they just decided they weren't going to finish the artwork.
I did try to compromise but they didn't want to, I mean they already had the money so of course they didn't care to.

I don't know how I feel about making it public. Of course I want to warn other people so they don't get scammed, but if I put myself out there I run the risk that they might attack me. Thanks to Paypal being the wonderful place it is and forcing you to use your real name, they now have my real name. If I say anything, they might try to dox me.

A friend told me I could take the case up with a small claim court, but I don't know for just $150 it doesn't seem worth it. Maybe I should just drop it.

 

[35c]

Going forward, it helps to look at their other social media sites/art sites, and wherever else they may be posting their portfolio. Artists uploading to Twitter and labeling commission work is a good sign. You can also search artists on r/ hungryartists, lemmasoft, itch.io, artstation, etc.

I work with visual novels so I've dealt with my fair share of scams. There's nothing you can really do about it except be better informed looking into the next artist/collaborator.

Thanks, guess it's just going to serve as a life lesson.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

[

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, I'm sorry if its not.

While the anniversary competition was still going on, I wanted to enter so I thought to commission an artist on Deviantart to draw the cover for me. I paid upfront, which looking back was really stupid of me. The artist had one month to finish. I was sent two drafts (one of which was watermarked) before the artist stopped sending me updates. They missed their deadline but finally sent me an update three days after the deadline. They had made significant changes to the design, to the point where it didn't even look like the same character anymore. I asked them to fix it, but they refused. When trying to discuss with them failed, I tried opening a claim on Paypal using purchase protection. After a month of waiting, Paypal denied my claim because they don't cover "custom made" items.
I spent $150 dollars and at the end I never even got the finished artwork. And that's a lot of money for me, especially right now. Trying to resolve the issue also took so long that now the anniversary competition is over. I'm at a loss. I don't know what else I can do. Is there any other options for me? Or do I just have to cut my losses despite the fact that I was scammed.

Have any other writers had to deal with this? What did you guys do?

Yeah...dont trust DeviantArt artists. The place is called deviant art for a reason.

Next time i suggest finding someone from Fiverr and look at the reviews of the artists before making a commision.

That aside if the pic the dude sent is actually usable, does it matter much if it doesnt fit the character?
Can you send up the pic?

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Well, not sure if you were scammed, but paying upfront on the internet is ... brave to put it mildly.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

I paid upfront, which looking back was really stupid of me.

(150$ for a cover is quite much)

Yeah...dont trust DeviantArt artists. The place is called deviant art for a reason.

Well, not sure if you were scammed, but paying upfront on the internet is ... brave to put it mildly.

1. There is not a single thing even slightly suspicious nor "brave" about paying upfront for art. The vast, vast majority of artists who have even a slight idea of what they are doing are going to charge you upfront if they don't know who you are. Even if they do have reason to trust you, they'll likely still charge you upfront. There are far more asshats ripping off artists by never paying them than artists who are scamming people. If you're not comfortable paying upfront, you're going to struggle ever finding professionals (or even most hobbyists) willing to work with you. Any artist who isn't charging upfront is asking to get ripped off.

2. There's literally nothing wrong with DeviantArt. There are stories like this that come out of every single other platform as well, though such stories are still the minority compared to people trying to rip the artists off. All you have to do is be smart, look into who you're commissioning to make sure that they're trustworthy, and be as clear and as concise as possible while giving instructions. Of the 9 or so artists I've worked with so far, I contacted all but two of them through DeviantArt, I paid most of them the full price upfront, and I haven't had a single issue with any of them.

3. $150 for a cover is not much. Maybe it's a lot compared to low-quality stock-image covers on Fiverr, but that is absolutely a fair price for an original work. In fact, it's cheap. Especially if you plan on maybe making even a few dollars off of your work, thus turning it into a commercial product in which case many artists charge an additional 30% - 100% of the base price for any art that will be getting used commercially. It's not uncommon at all for people to pay $300 - $600 per cover. I usually pay between $200 and $400 per cover, and that's considered to be on the low end of things for completely original works that are being used for commercial reasons.

I spent $150 dollars and at the end I never even got the finished artwork. And that's a lot of money for me, especially right now. Trying to resolve the issue also took so long that now the anniversary competition is over. I'm at a loss. I don't know what else I can do. Is there any other options for me? Or do I just have to cut my losses despite the fact that I was scammed.

If you went through PayPal, and you sent money for a service (never use "send to friend/family"), then you have buyer protection. Contact PayPal or look up how to order a refund. PayPal very frequently takes the side of the consumer in cases like this. In fact, one of the major problems that artists face is people ordering refunds through PayPal even though they delivered the exact product that was paid for. There's almost nothing that they can do to stop such refunds from happening.

Anyways, as bad as this experience might have been for you, things like this are in the minority of cases. Even so, you should expect to almost always pay upfront for any art that you commission. Now, if you're left paranoid about paying upfront after this, then what you might be able to do is ask an artist if they're willing to take half of the payment upfront and then half after the sketching/lineart is done. Quite a few artists are willing to work with you in cases like that, or even half upfront and then the other half once the entire thing is over. As long as you pay at least half upfront, though, then you're proving that you have the money to pay them which alleviates a lot of worries when working with a new commissioner.

Also, I recommend sketchmob. Been using that recently and it's pretty great.

EDIT: And also, just to clarify: when I say that $150 isn't much, I mean relative to the cost of art for stories. It's a lot on its own, but it's cheap in regard to original book covers.

 

[Nanakawaichan]

Also, I recommend sketchmob. Been using that recently and it's pretty great.

Yes, I also use that site. I kind of surprise when you said 150$ is pretty cheap for a cover. I mean there's a lot of artists in sketchmob who can make us a cover start from 10$ (Maybe I made that site as my benchmark, so I think like that.) and you can buy their copyright. But of course don't compared 10$ art with 150$ art.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

Yes, I also use that site. I kind of surprise when you said 150$ is pretty cheap for a cover. I mean there's a lot of artists in sketchmob who can make us a cover start from 10$ (Maybe I made that site as my benchmark, so I think like that.) and you can buy their copyright. But of course don't compared 10$ art with 150$ art.

You can find much cheaper covers on things like Fiverr, but those are usually people editing stock images and throwing some text over them. When it comes to something that somebody has to design, draw, and color from scratch, then it gets significantly more expensive pretty fast. Then you throw in commercial rights on top of that, and that's usually another $100 all on its own on top of the base price. As for Sketchmob prices... a lot of the artists on there, I've noticed, are from countries that generally have lower-than-average prices when it comes to stuff like this. A good deal of them are undercharging what they're worth, especially since most of the addons for commercial rights are only like $10. One artist I'm working with from there charges $40 base price and then an additional $60 for commercial rights, and that's much more standard for the industry. But also, for every 100 artists on Sketchmob, there are maybe only 1-2 of them who I would consider commissioning.

EDIT: (also, while we're here, congrats on the top trending spot )

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

1. There is not a single thing even slightly suspicious nor "brave" about paying upfront for art. The vast, vast majority of artists who have even a slight idea of what they are doing are going to charge you upfront if they don't know who you are. Even if they do have reason to trust you, they'll likely still charge you upfront. There are far more asshats ripping off artists by never paying them than artists who are scamming people. If you're not comfortable paying upfront, you're going to struggle ever finding professionals (or even most hobbyists) willing to work with you. Any artist who isn't charging upfront is asking to get ripped off.

2. There's literally nothing wrong with DeviantArt. There are stories like this that come out of every single other platform as well, though such stories are still the minority compared to people trying to rip the artists off. All you have to do is be smart, look into who you're commissioning to make sure that they're trustworthy, and be as clear and as concise as possible while giving instructions. Of the 9 or so artists I've worked with so far, I contacted all but two of them through DeviantArt, I paid most of them the full price upfront, and I haven't had a single issue with any of them.

3. $150 for a cover is not much. Maybe it's a lot compared to low-quality stock-image covers on Fiverr, but that is absolutely a fair price for an original work. In fact, it's cheap. Especially if you plan on maybe making even a few dollars off of your work, thus turning it into a commercial product in which case many artists charge an additional 30% - 100% of the base price for any art that will be getting used commercially. It's not uncommon at all for people to pay $300 - $600 per cover. I usually pay between $200 and $400 per cover, and that's considered to be on the low end of things for completely original works that are being used for commercial reasons.



If you went through PayPal, and you sent money for a service (never use "send to friend/family"), then you have buyer protection. Contact PayPal or look up how to order a refund. PayPal very frequently takes the side of the consumer in cases like this. In fact, one of the major problems that artists face is people ordering refunds through PayPal even though they delivered the exact product that was paid for. There's almost nothing that they can do to stop such refunds from happening.

Anyways, as bad as this experience might have been for you, things like this are in the minority of cases. Even so, you should expect to almost always pay upfront for any art that you commission. Now, if you're left paranoid about paying upfront after this, then what you might be able to do is ask an artist if they're willing to take half of the payment upfront and then half after the sketching/lineart is done. Quite a few artists are willing to work with you in cases like that, or even half upfront and then the other half once the entire thing is over. As long as you pay at least half upfront, though, then you're proving that you have the money to pay them which alleviates a lot of worries when working with a new commissioner.

Also, I recommend sketchmob. Been using that recently and it's pretty great.

EDIT: And also, just to clarify: when I say that $150 isn't much, I mean relative to the cost of art for stories. It's a lot on its own, but it's cheap in regard to original book covers.

AceAriadne, despite you siding with artists, you should be reminded that the bona fides works both ways. We are talking here about two-sided obligations and as such both parties have the right to enjoy appropriate protection, not only your poor artist. Demanding to be paid upfront on the internet without credentials and verification of your identity is a very poor sign of trustworthiness. I can understand payment by installments, but the entire sum upfront? Here in Italy, we say the contrary, never pay upfront unless you are a fool. Especially, in the South.

And about the artists and their refund issue, maybe they have never thought about a receipt.

 

[Nanakawaichan]

You can find much cheaper covers on things like Fiverr, but those are usually people editing stock images and throwing some text over them. When it comes to something that somebody has to design, draw, and color from scratch, then it gets significantly more expensive pretty fast. Then you throw in commercial rights on top of that, and that's usually another $100 all on its own on top of the base price. As for Sketchmob prices... a lot of the artists on there, I've noticed, are from countries that generally have lower-than-average prices when it comes to stuff like this. A good deal of them are undercharging what they're worth, especially since most of the addons for commercial rights are only like $10. One artist I'm working with from there charges $40 base price and then an additional $60 for commercial rights, and that's much more standard for the industry. But also, for every 100 artists on Sketchmob, there are maybe only 1-2 of them who I would consider commissioning.

EDIT: (also, while we're here, congrats on the top trending spot )

Thank you

I only know DeviantArt, pixiv and sketchmob. But I using sketchmob since they have better system. For that country, yea...You can eat at all you can eat buffet restaurant for 10$ here

 

[Ace_Arriande]

AceAriadne, despite you siding with artists, you should be reminded that the bona fides works both ways. We are talking here about two-sided obligations and as such both parties have the right to enjoy appropriate protection, not only your poor artist. Demanding to be paid upfront on the internet without credentials and verification of your identity is a very poor sign of trustworthiness. I can understand payment by installments, but the entire sum upfront? Here in Italy, we say the contrary, never pay upfront unless you are a fool. Especially, in the South.

And about the artists and their refund issue, maybe they have never thought about a receipt.

Both sides do have protection. The purchaser has the protection of being able to very easily get a refund thanks to PayPal's buyer protection or the refund guarantees of the various commission websites. The artist, though, has no protection aside from charging upfront. There is no "seller protection" to force a commissioner to pay. There is no legal contract demanding that the commissioner pay once the art is complete. The artist is at infinitely more risk because they are the ones putting in the hours of work, supported by years of practice and training, with zero protection. The commissioner can only pay half upfront and then bail after getting a sketch, they could promise to pay but not pay at all, they could order a refund/chargeback after the finished product is completed - there are multiple ways for commissioners to easily take advantage of the system. Furthermore, when it comes to an artist versus a probably-unknown commissioner, the artist's reputation is much more at stake than the commissioner's is. There's nothing stopping somebody from creating a new account, commissioning art, not paying, then leaving with their art with no harm to their reputation. For an artist, if they scam somebody, they can't just delete their identity from the internet. Word will spread, people will know not to commission them (the internet loves cancel culture nowadays), and if they do delete whatever social media they have, they would have to spend considerable time building up a social media presence again. It's far, far easier to get away with ripping off artists than it is for artists to rip off commissioners. That is why artists get, and deserve, more protection, because they are the ones who need it more.

Furthermore, their entire social media presence is their credentials and verification. If you see an artist with thousands of followers who has dozens of works marked as "commission" or some such thing, then that is your verification. Where is the equal verification for commissioners? Unless you yourself have a strong social media presence, then you have no way to verify that you're a legitimate customer. For us authors, we can link to our social media to prove that we're legitimate, but the vast majority of commissioners are just random people who want to see their waifu drawn. There is nothing to verify them.

This is why, in the vast majority of cases where money is involved, you pay upfront. Go to the store? Pay upfront. Buy a game? Pay upfront. Buy a house? Pay upfront. Sure, there are cases where you don't pay upfront such as getting a haircut, going to a restaurant (excluding fast food), and so on, but those are cases where you are there as a physical person. They see who you are - they know who you are. They can easily blacklist you and prevent you from ever coming back. There is nothing like that for the internet. All somebody has to do is create a brand new Twitter account to DM an artist with. But the Twitter artist - they have a recognizable style, they have a reputation, and they spent years getting to where they are.

Now, clearly, the perfect solution would be to completely remove internet anonymity. Put everybody's legal name and photo ID next to all online profiles they have, and also force every artist and commissioner to sign a legal document ensuring a fair deal. That is the most objective way to protect all parties involved. Unfortunately, I don't think that people would be alright with giving up their internet anonymity like that. So, until then, artists get more protection because they're the ones who need it more. And even then, their "protection" is charging upfront whereas commissioners have multiple other avenues of protection. Even when an artist is as safe as they can be, they're more at risk.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Customers have buyer protection for, well, protection. Artists basically only have good faith. There are also so few other instances where payment is expected after the fact, even on the internet. When you buy, say, furniture or a book online, do you say, "Okay, please send it to me and I promise to pay for the item+shipping after it arrives"? No. You buy the product, you pay for the product, you receive the product, in that order. "On the internet" doesn't change the order of things, it just changes the venue. It's not a "demand" to be asked to be paid for your goods and services (and it is a service) up front. It's just the extremely common way business works.

PP very often sides with the disputer, and even if in the end they rule in the artists' favour, it can still leave a permanent black mark on their account, leave them in the red for the duration of the dispute, can cause overdraft fees, etc.

Product and services are not the same, my friend and you probably know that. Since old Roman times, we already distinguish between work contracts and classical purchasing contracts. Buying a finished product from an established producer as a genus obligation is not the same as a species obligation in this case. And the venue matters a lot, in one case we are talking about established international companies with a legal seat you can sue whenever you want as you are forming a valid written contract with them in form of a buying order, in the other case about a nameless artist hiding potentially behind smurf accounts if they know their job and are ripping off people systematically.

 

[DarkWe]

I've also had this issue before when using DeviantArt for commissions. A guy scammed me 90 euros and never delivered anything - not even a draft... I use Fiverr and similar sites now for art (price is way lower and you get commercial rights without paying your left leg).

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Y'all know it's 2020 now right.

Ah, I know now why you call yourself the Green Tea Bitch.^^

 

[Mejiro]

'Money up front' is the standard, sometimes it's 'half up front, half after sketches' or similar, but it's pretty much to stop the customer ghosting. Art is also really variable in price - if you want a full, legit full-time artist, except to pay full-time professional rates (and more if you want full commercial rights). OTOH, sometimes you get, like, someone on break from college, looking to earn beer money, who will be willing to work waaaaay cheaper, but might be flakier to contact (but often aren't - my main artist is someone I met at a con once, who has never been more than a few days late, and works fairly cheap, because it's a hobby that pays for her, rather than a job). It sucks when they vanish, but it sounds like you at least got something. But it's probably better to start cheap unless it's someone with an actual rep, get something cheap, see how that goes, then go for something bigger. Or ask around and find someone more reliable.

 

[35c]

The issue isn't really whether $150 is a lot or not. I'm sure there's a lot cheaper and a lot more expensive prices for commissions, but $150 was the price the artist and I agreed on. At the end, its about the principle. I fulfilled my end of the deal when I paid, so it's only fair that the artist should fulfill there end by delivering the artwork.

I sent the money as a payment through Paypal, so I thought I had purchase protection. But apparently Paypal doesn't cover artwork. (Or maybe I just did it wrong)

After this experience, I doubt I'll be commissioning artwork again. And in the off chance that I do, I wouldn't feel comfortable paying upfront. I'm aware artist struggle with getting scammed so I can understand why they would want to charge upfront. But artists could easily just watermark there artwork, which is actually what the artist did with the second draft they sent. On the other hand, once the commissioner sends the money, there's no guarantee they'll get what they paid for.

Even if I did leave a bad review, where would I even leave it? How could I make sure other people could see it before commissioning the artist? And even if they did, why would they choose to trust me, some no name writer?