'Good Guys Win in the end' Vs Nets and Flakes?

naosu

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So this seemed interesting bring up. But when you watch Netflix. You don't see a lot of shows showing good guys winning in the end anymore. They seem to do a lot of shows where Good Guys Lose. I find this odd. There's a lot of shows with very dark themes also.

I kind of think maybe people don't like this. Maybe people should question this more.

Like when you watch a show you want to see 'Good Guys Win'. Its in your nature that you want to see a happy ending. Your spirit inside you feels that's best. And fulfilling.

Its just odd that they don't seem to understand this idea of Good Guys SHOULD WIN in the end.
 

Wanderrae

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I'm a contrarian, so I'll argue from the opposite perspective

This is about moral ambiguity and subversion, isn't it. Well, I disagree wholeheartedly. That anything should be anything. In real life, the good guys rarely win, people make the argument in this case, that fiction should be an outlet, where people should be free of hardship, real-world politics. That fantastical whims, power fantasies, should be the norm. That there's a correct shape fiction ought to take.

I've never enjoyed that in any way. It doesn't fulfill me. It has never.

The overwhelming majority of non-literary and non-romance fiction, is about good guys winning against the bad guys. It's been oversaturated since the early days of fantasy, before I was even born. Fluid morality is trending, because it's a nasty glimpse into human nature.

I've heard the masses, especially among the anime community, argue. "Hey, writer, you exist so I can be entertained.” And, no! Writers do not.

No story needs to be the same. The good guys don't always have to win, the bad guys don't always have to be villains, and the good guys don't need to be heroes. My favorite heroes, has always been the flawed ones.

Art doesn't have to just exist to make people feel good. It can exist to intrigue, to unravel unconscious psyche's, and it should absolutely push against the grains of what people deem comfortable.
 

CharlesEBrown

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My guess is that is what they feel the world needs, given the politics of their board of directors... a dose of their vision of "truth"...

Then again, some of the most epic television shows of the past had the good guys lose - Blake's Seven for example (that is, when a show actually had an ending) so maybe it's just a throwback, or the writers trying to revisit their own favorite shows. OR... or the writers had hoped for another season, but it got cancelled out from under them, so what was supposed to be a cliffhanger wound up - either through spite, or through not being able to show what REALLY happened and why it wasn't the loss it looked like in the first episode of the next season - as utter defeat?
 

dukerino

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Like when you watch a show you want to see 'Good Guys Win'. Its in your nature that you want to see a happy ending. Your spirit inside you feels that's best. And fulfilling.
The oldest recorded story in history, the Epic of Gilgamesh, has a tragic and dark ending. The ancient greeks believed in the purgative power of pathos and many of our grandest tragedies come from them. This is the furthest possible thing from a new trend.

Don't get me wrong--I much prefer a happy ending too. But you're mistaking your own preferences for a truth that just doesn't bear out. There is nothing in human nature that we're going against when we tell tragedies. They've been a dominant form of storytelling since the dawn of written language.
 

beast_regards

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It's complicated.

As "modernism" became "postmodernism" and then turned into "meta modernism" the artists became increasingly self-absorbed and obsessed with deconstruction and defying the rules, narrative structures, and subverting audience expectations, refusing to bend knee to any concept, any convention, any structure, and result is what you see in "modern cinema" (not confuse with "modernist cinema") .

Basically, artists are purposefully trolling you (that's what all those big words mean), and they know it would upset people, that's the purpose.

Of course, where is a question why the elites are giving those artists money for all those projects, but the answer for that is more conspiracy theory, and I don't want to run into that. It's politics, and we don't talk politics.

The perseverance of ideals is the very "modernist" idea - i.e good guys win - which is very 50's or 60's
 

dukerino

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The perseverance of ideals is the very "modernist" idea - i.e good guys win - which is very 50's or 60's
Am I understanding right you're saying that a hallmark of modernism was good guys winning? That's very odd to hear--when I think modernism it's Hemingway, Joyce, Faulkner, etc, and they all wrote primarily huge bummers.

But that was before the 50s and 60s. So I'm not sure what the movement you're talking about is, exactly. That was the Beat Generation and postmodernism, which was if anything the real crest of alienation in writing. LIke--Howl and Sunset Boulevard and Alfred Hitchcock, and even light-on-the-surface fare like West Side Story very often ended with tragedy. There was a lot of raw material to reckon with--the Cold War was happening, WWII was still in living memory... hell, Blowup was 1966 and that was one of the most disturbing deconstructions I've ever seen.

Again, these are really long-lived, historically rich forms. We can talk preferences (and I think I probably agree with you there, being a fan of a nice HEA myself) without being ahistorical.
 
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beast_regards

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Am I understanding right you're saying that a hallmark of modernism was good guys winning? That's very odd to hear--when I think modernism it's Hemingway, Joyce, Faulkner, etc, and they all wrote primarily huge bummers.

But that was before the 50s and 60s. So I'm not sure what the movement you're talking about is, exactly. That was the Beat Generation and postmodernism, which was if anything the real crest of alienation in writing. LIke--Howl and Sunset Boulevard and Alfred Hitchcock, and even light-on-the-surface fare like West Side Story very often ended with tragedy. There was a lot of raw material to reckon with--the Cold War was happening, WWII was still in living memory... hell, Blowup was 1966 and that was one of the most disturbing deconstructions I've ever seen.

Again, these are really long-lived, historically rich forms. We can talk preferences (and I think I probably agree with you there, being a fan of a nice HEA myself) without being ahistorical.
It's kinda difficult to explain because people like artists and philosophers rarely agree to what it means, but ...

The way I understand it, and I am not making this up, it's what I was told when I was wondering about the same thing, the modernist cinema (i.e. where the medium began) usually presents a certain set of values, and then advocates for this set of values as universally good.

There is no good parallel to this in the literature. It's about the film as the new, emerging medium.

It's why "good guys" win. Good guys win because they represent the certain set of "traditional" values, and the movie shows the triumph of those beliefs through the victory of the good guys.

Many westerns followed this format, with good guys winning because they represented the law, and order, and duty, and American way, or so.

Even war movies did it - the heroism, sense of duty and so on - was a prevalent theme in them, almost as Hemingway and others never happened. As opposed to "anti-war" movies, which, of course, did the opposite, and were more in line with Hemingway, and Joyce, and Faulkner, showing how cruel and largely pointless or even absurd that affair is.

The post-modernist cinema are movies like Pulp Fiction, where not only there aren't any good guys that would represent any traditional set of values, and the plot is inherently cynical, but also the itself story itself is told in non-linear way so there is no traditional story structure with clear resolution.

Another post-modernist movie is Monty Python (and Holy Grail) where nothing is taken seriously, not the story, not the message, not even the story structure, it doesn't even have a proper ending, because why take anything seriously?
 
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