Dwarven town physics...

[naosu]

So you know I like to gather data for stories. And try to figure out how they'd work out. Its quite fun. And it helps you with the story.

Anyway, I ran into this story and it made me wonder if a dwarven town underground or inside a mountain would actually work.... :( It also depressed me a bit because there'd have to be a way to make this work. And it means a lot of fantasy stories would have to have their physics re-worked out.

OR what do you think?

https://www.penwithlocalhistorygroup.co.uk/on-this-day/?id=251 (Link for Levant Mining Disaster in Cornwall, UK a century ago.)

There's actually a whole ton of these kinds of very similar stories. There's a YouTube channel that covers them. And many of them have the disaster occur because of lack of air, air poisoning, carbon monoxide...

This means that dwarves as a nation and people in underground cities could NOT WORK at all. UNLESS they had a huge amount of mages among them, specifically air mages. Most stories portray them as magic-less, etc.

 

[Blackout]

Mine is living on the surface. They use high-tech gears to do their dwarves thing, and they listen to metal music while they work. Also, they drive monster truck, because why the heck not. I never thought about physics and whatnot.

 

[Tegeli]

The air is stale, the conditioning old,
The forge's fire is choked cold;
No breath is huffed, no manlet brawls:
Carbon monoxide dwells in Durin's halls;

 

[naosu]

Mine is living on the surface. They use high-tech gears to do their dwarves thing, and they listen to metal music while they work. Also, they drive monster truck, because why the heck not. I never thought about physics and whatnot.

Of course they'd listen to heavy metals... :P
Maybe they'd have need a 2nd liver that filters carbon monoxide?

 

[laccoff_mawning]

You just have to find reasons why this wouldn't happen for dwarfs. For example, maybe dwarfs have a lung system that is much more durable than humans, allowing them to filter most poisonous gases out of their system safely.

Maybe they grow some special fungi that produces enough breathable air for them from carbon dioxide.

As for mechanical failure, dwarfs just specialise in that particular industry. After all, if they need that knowledge to survive, that's the knowledge that they will research the most.

Maybe they have some form of air pump engineered. Like, maybe fresh air constantly blows in from small holes in cliffsides or something, and the carbon dioxide rises up through large chimneys. Perhaps you should do some research into termite mounds for inspiration?

 

[Arkus86]

It could work, as long as they figured out solid air circulation. An entire sapient race evolving underground would naturally develop ways to live underground, or perish. For most of our history, humans have barely scratched the surface, and learned by mistakes, but never was there a real need to learn to live underground, so while our mine accidents can highlight some difficulties of living underground, it does not disprove the possibility.

Inside a mountain might be easier, as if it was above the surounding terrain, CO2 could be left to "pour out" by itself, but even deeper underground would not be impossible.

 

[Tyranomaster]

The way I've been handling it is that dwarves have cities situated near mountains, but can operate underground for long periods of time. You can't have a one way in one way out fortress. You can have a bunch of tunnels going to a centralized space with exits on all sides of the mountain in multiple places. In fact, if you have tunnels on all sides of the mountain that are relatively well sized, it should have very high airflow if the mountains are tall. Air pressure differences on one side versus the other due to prevailing winds should actually induce pretty good air movement through the tunnel (at least hypothetically).

https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/winds/Wx_Terms/Flight_Environment.htm

 

[beast_regards]

Derinkuyu underground "city" is very real. There have been few examples of the cities, or at least towns, carved into mountains or underground, and quite a few mythological examples which couldn't be proven.

That along is enough to justify them in fantasy.

How they work, it's up to you.

Though, carbon monoxide isn't going to be that much of the problem, as I doubt the dwarves live in the coal mines with pocked of toxic gas, otherwise it is only an issue with the poorly ventilated places and poor burning.

Unless, of course, they do, but well, that's a lot of fantasy biology involved too.

Carbon dioxide would be more of the issue.

However, there is a lot of questions about either dwarves' technological level which would allow them to have active ventilation systems. After all, dwarves are described as very industrious.

Or are we considering a dystopian society controlled by the air mages?

 

[Plantorsomething]

So you know I like to gather data for stories. And try to figure out how they'd work out. Its quite fun. And it helps you with the story.

Anyway, I ran into this story and it made me wonder if a dwarven town underground or inside a mountain would actually work.... :( It also depressed me a bit because there'd have to be a way to make this work. And it means a lot of fantasy stories would have to have their physics re-worked out.

OR what do you think?

https://www.penwithlocalhistorygroup.co.uk/on-this-day/?id=251 (Link for Levant Mining Disaster in Cornwall, UK a century ago.)

There's actually a whole ton of these kinds of very similar stories. There's a YouTube channel that covers them. And many of them have the disaster occur because of lack of air, air poisoning, carbon monoxide...

This means that dwarves as a nation and people in underground cities could NOT WORK at all. UNLESS they had a huge amount of mages among them, specifically air mages. Most stories portray them as magic-less, etc.

One story I saw had it that dwarves don’t need to breathe

One story I saw had it that dwarves don’t need to breathe

You could have it that there’s special oxygen stones or underground plants and algae too

 

[RainingFish]

Why not make a magical ecosystem to make it work? Plants and fungus could use magic instead of sunlight for photosynthesis, or maybe magisynthesis in this case.

 

[Placeholder]

Windcatcher - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Also, lit chimneys will draft stale air up them. Flowing water should as well.

> Anyway, I ran into this story and it made me wonder if a dwarven town underground or inside a mountain would actually work....

Where's the food come from?

 

[Deleted member 84247]

I never have this problem. I hardly apply science to fantasy and never think about it.

 

[Anonjohn20]

Anyway, I ran into this story and it made me wonder if a dwarven town underground or inside a mountain would actually work

No physics breaking required, just make a few holes to let the oxygen in.

China.

India (2 separate locations).

Peru.

Turkey.

I have another pic of the Mesa Verde in Colorado, USA but it won't let me post it. LOL

 

[John_Owl]

How about this: Forge and Smelter hot air goes up, spinning a fan, which increases airflow through a pipe, leading to the outside. This also increases the intake draw on fresh air pipes elsewhere. Same basic principle as a turbo in an engine. Exhaust is expelled, which spins up the turbine, linked to another turbine that pulls in more fresh air. None of it uses electricity, which could, in theory, work in most fantasy settings. Literally just tilted blades connected to a central spinning point, linked to a reversed setup via a belt and/or pulley system. I could draw up a quick diagram, if needed.

 

[Placeholder]

"Oxygen? Sounds elvish."

 

[naosu]

No physics breaking required, just make a few holes to let the oxygen in.


View attachment 38357
China.

View attachment 38358
View attachment 38361
India (2 separate locations).

View attachment 38359
Peru.

View attachment 38360
Turkey.

I have another pic of the Mesa Verde in Colorado, USA but it won't let me post it. LOL

Cool pictures! Thanks for sending them.
Thanks for all your replies. Lots of interesting comments.

 

[Piisfun]

So you know I like to gather data for stories. And try to figure out how they'd work out. Its quite fun. And it helps you with the story.

Anyway, I ran into this story and it made me wonder if a dwarven town underground or inside a mountain would actually work.... :( It also depressed me a bit because there'd have to be a way to make this work. And it means a lot of fantasy stories would have to have their physics re-worked out.

OR what do you think?

https://www.penwithlocalhistorygroup.co.uk/on-this-day/?id=251 (Link for Levant Mining Disaster in Cornwall, UK a century ago.)

There's actually a whole ton of these kinds of very similar stories. There's a YouTube channel that covers them. And many of them have the disaster occur because of lack of air, air poisoning, carbon monoxide...

This means that dwarves as a nation and people in underground cities could NOT WORK at all. UNLESS they had a huge amount of mages among them, specifically air mages. Most stories portray them as magic-less, etc.

For air, look into barometric caves. They have a constant wind through them due to having two entrances at different elevations.
Alternatively, you could have them do what is done in modern mines: a dedicated section of the colony for life support with a ton of air pumps, and pipes delivering that air to the deepest sections of the mines.

You could also take the route of a steam engine's blower: use the force of the airflow from the chimneys of the underground forges to pull fresh air in to the cavern.

Air and water wouldn't be an issue; it would be food that is the problem. Unless the dwarves literally eat rocks, or survive primarily on mushrooms, they would need to bring in meat and produce from the surface.

 

[naosu]

Thank you very much everyone.