Discussion about "write for yourself" when writing romance.

[MintiLime]

My opinion is that it's really difficult to balance. What readers think is very important, maybe even equally important to what author thinks. I also think that a lot of writers suffer from hubris, and as I said, think that others failed, but they won't since they are better. I also think, that at least when you earn money from writing, you don't have to cater to readers, but you should listen to them very intently. You are alone, and you have your own bias. Yet there are many readers, and if their opinions align, perhaps you, an author, are simply stubborn. And this stubbornness ruins a lot of good things.

I think that makes perfect sense and is a well balanced opinion :)

 

[AnonUnlimited]

Hmm… well now that this discussion has gotten this far. NTR is all about sparks. The unhealthy kind.

 

[Lodur]

COUGH COUGH

COUGH COUGH

I really don't know a single thing about characters you mentioned (never wached anime fo children). About "active" girls. I can't really say, who has the best chemistry with Makoto: Sekai or Kotonoha. But, either way, nice boat. They are both most "active" girls, I saw in anime series.

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@SailusGebel , sorry for intruding. My tongue is my enemy.
As a reader... Maybe, my point of view is not so popular, but I don't really like when author changes his plot to appease readers. He (she) is a god of his novel, and possess omniscience on the plot (unlike readers), so don't really entertain the desires of your readers, if they contradict your idea for your story.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I think that makes perfect sense and is a well balanced opinion :)

To add to my opinion. I like wrestling, the fake one. It's the one with The Rock, John Cena, The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, and so on. The way people decide who is going to win(since it's staged) who will get more time on TV, and so on is basically based on an opinion of one man. The one who owns the wrestling promotion.

And I want to mention that the most successful promoter made his wrestling empire partially because of his mindset. Instead of giving fans what they want, he made them like what he did. Since the fans are fickle, he made them like the things he did instead of catering to them. However, in the later years, he started failing a lot. Even though he is ultimately right and the fans are fickle, a lot of guys he saw as stars flopped miserably. He still tried to promote them, but they never took off. Meanwhile a couple wrestlers that had absolutely incredible popularity, but most importantly, EARNED A LOT OF MONEY, were ignored by him. Simply because he didn't like them. He didn't even have to make them champions or make those wrestlers win all the time. Simply capitalize on their popularity, make more merchandise, milk them for money, and then continue your experiments. Yet he didn't do it. The amount of money and popularity he lost because of his stubbornes is a lot.

So yeah. I always think about this whenever someone talks about writing for yourself or ignoring readers. As an author, I'm so far away from being good, so it's easy for me to make MC have better chemistry with some random character. But when does it happen, when readers are fickle and when they are not is hard to tell.

 

[CrimsonGenius]

Write for yourself. Build the relationship between the two characters. A situation that put them closer together. Chemistry is for NERDS!!!

 

[KrakenRiderEmma]

Of course an author should listen to the readers and consider the idea. But then the author has to make the decision alone. There's no guarantee that any one idea from readers, even if it is "objectively a good idea," can be stuck into your writing process and work. The "imagined scenario" from not changing course is an alternate universe where the same story is written with a different MC romantic partner, and it works just as well, probably even better! Hahaha no. That is a pretty big assumption. If the author doesn't feel the vibes in the right way, and can see how it fits into everything else going on in the story, then it could end up a worse story even if "the romance makes more sense." The author has to write the story and is the only one who can decide what will work to keep their own fire burning and writing process going.

I think it's easier to change romances in series like Naruto where Hina does almost nothing that affects the main story? You could swap someone else in and it doesn't affect anything else? But this is definitely not always the case.

 

[Bartun]

I completely understand. Although I'm not currently writing romance, sometimes the characters tend to go in specific directions according to their interactions, even though their personalities suggest they shouldn't have such good chemistry. Even passive-aggressive interactions can turn into playful banter.

 

[ReadLight]

On the topic of "writing for yourself" in general, I was reminded of this quote: "[A] hack writes hierarchically. He writes what he imagines will play well in the eyes of others. He does not ask himself, What do I myself want to write? What do I think is important? Instead he asks, What's hot, what can I make a deal for? ... It can pay off, being a hack. ... But even if you succeed, you lose, because you've sold out your Muse, and your Muse is you, the best part of yourself, where your finest and only true work comes from." - Steven Pressfield, The War of Art.

So yeah, it's balancing between what you want to write vs. what you think the readers want to read because too often those two do not align largely. So what to do? please the crowd or write what you want to write? The financial (or fame) incentive also adds to the scale. Many authors who are well-known, likely write (or draw) professionally, meaning, it's a job. They pay their bills that way. So it's no surprise they are dealing with a market, and there's no blaming people for providing products that the market wants. Harem, for example, is (for the sake of this argument) a crowd-pleaser and can attract a wider range of readers.

As for staying true to yourself and stuff, that's also valid. I myself lean heavier towards this part. Yes, I picked two fandoms that I think are popular for the topic of my book, but I am writing it in perhaps the least crowd-pleasing way there is. I ain't deliberately trying to turn away readers, just structuring the story and its settings in a way that'd allow me to write what I want to.

Writing for myself is comparatively much easier because I really am doing it just as a hobby; I write when I'm bored, and I don't expect my webnovel to put food on the table.

In the end, is it a mistake to not follow market trends and please the crowd when writing? Yes, if you are trying to profit and or build fame. But if you are just doing it for fun, then just write whatever. I have like 70 readers, and that's 69 more readers than I had anticipated when I started my book. Honestly, I'm thrilled.

And to other authors, especially those who write as a source of income, I can't say much because I am not in the same situation as them.

I, however, do imagine someone doing both in different works. That is, they'd first write for the market, please the crowd, being a hack, and after making it big and attracting fame and building a reader base, then they'd write for themselves and tell their readers: this is me, this is what I want to write.

Has anyone ever tried that? How it went?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

On the topic of "writing for yourself" in general, I was reminded of this quote: "[A] hack writes hierarchically. He writes what he imagines will play well in the eyes of others. He does not ask himself, What do I myself want to write? What do I think is important? Instead he asks, What's hot, what can I make a deal for? ... It can pay off, being a hack. ... But even if you succeed, you lose, because you've sold out your Muse, and your Muse is you, the best part of yourself, where your finest and only true work comes from." - Steven Pressfield, The War of Art.

So yeah, it's balancing between what you want to write vs. what you think the readers want to read because too often those two do not align largely. So what to do? please the crowd or write what you want to write? The financial (or fame) incentive also adds to the scale. Many authors who are well-known, likely write (or draw) professionally, meaning, it's a job. They pay their bills that way. So it's no surprise they are dealing with a market, and there's no blaming people for providing products that the market wants. Harem, for example, is (for the sake of this argument) a crowd-pleaser and can attract a wider range of readers.

As for staying true to yourself and stuff, that's also valid. I myself lean heavier towards this part. Yes, I picked two fandoms that I think are popular for the topic of my book, but I am writing it in perhaps the least crowd-pleasing way there is. I ain't deliberately trying to turn away readers, just structuring the story and its settings in a way that'd allow me to write what I want to.

Writing for myself is comparatively much easier because I really am doing it just as a hobby; I write when I'm bored, and I don't expect my webnovel to put food on the table.

In the end, is it a mistake to not follow market trends and please the crowd when writing? Yes, if you are trying to profit and or build fame. But if you are just doing it for fun, then just write whatever. I have like 70 readers, and that's 69 more readers than I had anticipated when I started my book. Honestly, I'm thrilled.

And to other authors, especially those who write as a source of income, I can't say much because I am not in the same situation as them.

I, however, do imagine someone doing both in different works. That is, they'd first write for the market, please the crowd, being a hack, and after making it big and attracting fame and building a reader base, then they'd write for themselves and tell their readers: this is me, this is what I want to write.

Has anyone ever tried that? How it went?

Unfortunately you strayed off the topic too much. You talk about general writing for youself against writing for readers. I asked a more concrete question with a more concrete example, even though I didn't mention titles of novels or manga. I ask about romance and how authors might be blinded by the additional info they possess. And how author might use 'write for yourself' as a sort of shield to not change a thing or to hide their biased preferences. Or, maybe it is readers fault for misunderstanding author's intention. I'm not exactly sure, and this is why I want to hear your opinion.

 

[ReadLight]

Unfortunately you strayed off the topic too much. You talk about general writing for youself against writing for readers. I asked a more concrete question with a more concrete example, even though I didn't mention titles of novels or manga. I ask about romance and how authors might be blinded by the additional info they possess. And how author might use 'write for yourself' as a sort of shield to not change a thing or to hide their biased preferences. Or, maybe it is readers fault for misunderstanding author's intention. I'm not exactly sure, and this is why I want to hear your opinion.

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you.

On the topic of guessing intensions... there's no guessing. It is what you think it is, and how valid depends on how many people you can get to agree with you I guess.

 

[SummerSweetTea]

One pairing might be more electric and exciting and seem more appealing but that doesn't necessarily make for a good, solid relationship.

For example, female MC meets someone and they build things over time, there's a connection there that runs deeper. Maybe they're kept apart for whatever reason but somehow, they always find their way back to each other. There is trust, there is a foundation.

Female MC also meets someone who they are attracted to. This romance is exciting and sexual, it seems passionate. This is fun to read, this attracts readers to this pairing because of the sparks. But, is there a foundation? Is there a potential for long lasting love? Perhaps not. So the second love interest seems more appealing in the moment, but the first makes a better partner.

Also sometimes people just choose the wrong person. There's a reason divorce rates are so high. There's no saying that simply because the author chose the pairing that it WAS the right one. But, like in real life, choices were made and best of luck.

So I think unless an author is writing the entire life of a character and shows that relationship as a literal death do us apart moment... you can't say that things really did work out for that pairing.

In general I understand the advice to write for yourself but I also think this can be a little narrow. Yes, write what you enjoy, write the story you want to tell... but I mean, keeping your audience in mind isn't a bad thing. But don't sacrifice your story for someone else's ideas. They can write the story they want if they want to.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

One pairing might be more electric and exciting and seem more appealing but that doesn't necessarily make for a good, solid relationship.

For example, female MC meets someone and they build things over time, there's a connection there that runs deeper. Maybe they're kept apart for whatever reason but somehow, they always find their way back to each other. There is trust, there is a foundation.

Female MC also meets someone who they are attracted to. This romance is exciting and sexual, it seems passionate. This is fun to read, this attracts readers to this pairing because of the sparks. But, is there a foundation? Is there a potential for long lasting love? Perhaps not. So the second love interest seems more appealing in the moment, but the first makes a better partner.

Also sometimes people just choose the wrong person. There's a reason divorce rates are so high. There's no saying that simply because the author chose the pairing that it WAS the right one. But, like in real life, choices were made and best of luck.

But we talk about fiction here. There is zero reasons to apply real-life logic to every, or single manga and novel. Because you have to apply the said logic to every part of the novel or manga, and if you do so, you will end up with no story.

Let's take OreGairu as example. Let's pretend I'm not happy with whom MC ended up with at the end. But you said here, if I use real-life logic to judge the relationships in that novel, it will make sense, right? Well, if I look at the story logically and don't suspend my desbelief, the premise won't work. Since the premise of that story is, MC forced to do social work by a teacher. So, the whole story stops working for me.

Maybe this is my problem that I can't look at one part of the story while using a real-life logic, all while ignoring blatantly obvious fictitious nature of other parts.

 

[SummerSweetTea]

But we talk about fiction here. There is zero reasons to apply real-life logic to every, or single manga and novel. Because you have to apply the said logic to every part of the novel or manga, and if you do so, you will end up with no story.

Let's take OreGairu as example. Let's pretend I'm not happy with whom MC ended up with at the end. But you said here, if I use real-life logic to judge the relationships in that novel, it will make sense, right? Well, if I look at the story logically and don't suspend my desbelief, the premise won't work. Since the premise of that story is, MC forced to do social work by a teacher. So, the whole story stops working for me.

Maybe this is my problem that I can't look at one part of the story while using a real-life logic, all while ignoring blatantly obvious fictitious nature of other parts.

Haha in my opinion, love works relatively the same regardless of the world you're in or how fantastical the setting is. Feelings are feelings.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Haha in my opinion, love works relatively the same regardless of the world you're in or how fantastical the setting is. Feelings are feelings.

I meant that in case of fiction, you don't need to overthink how they will end up. You can settle for, they lived happily ever after. Especially considering how a lot of those works were written for escapism. There is no need for these questions.

Female MC also meets someone who they are attracted to. This romance is exciting and sexual, it seems passionate. This is fun to read, this attracts readers to this pairing because of the sparks. But, is there a foundation? Is there a potential for long lasting love?

Absolutely zero need in asking these questions. Well, when you read majority of romance novels. There are also a fair share of works where you need to, and have to ask these questions. But usually authors of such works give exhaustive answers.