Writing Dialogue Tags

[RepresentingWrath]

Here is an example one of the videos gave:
“For my next trick,” the magician said,”I’m going to make the emergency exits disappear.”
The audience glanced at the doors to the left and right of the stage.
“Once the exits are gone, I’m going to set the building on fire.”
Nervous laughter sounded throughout the venue.
“Before I begin, I would like a volunteer. Preferably someone with a cigarette lighter.”

Now try writing the whole chapter like that.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Now try writing the whole chapter like that.

The point is that we don't need the tags in this instance as we know the magician is speaking.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

The point is that we don't need the tags in this instance as we know the magician is speaking.

I understand the point. Sure, you don't need tags in this instance, because there is no dialogue, it's monologue. My point is, in that example everything is nice, you don't need to substitue said with anything. It has perfect clarity and so on. But what if you write a chapter that is 2-4 thousand words long? And what if that chapter has multiple dialogues or conversation? Will you use he\she said for everyone?

 

[Corty]

The point is that we don't need the tags in this instance as we know the magician is speaking.

"I'll do it!" One guy said, standing up.
"Good! Come up, come up! What is your name?"
"Greg."
"I see, I see. Now, Greg, are you a smoker or just wanted to bask in the stage light?"
"Both."
"Ah, an honest one, everyone! Something I can appreciate!"

Not every dialogue needs it either. I think this is fully followable. Albeit... I would never write like this after learning about how the average reader prefers it and I am more than willing to write in a way that everyone can enjoy.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

I understand the point. Sure, you don't need tags in this instance, because there is no dialogue, it's monologue. My point is, in that example everything is nice, you don't need to substitue said with anything. It has perfect clarity and so on. But what if you write a chapter that is 2-4 thousand words long? And what if that chapter has multiple dialogues or conversation? Will you use he\she said for everyone?

They also had instances of this in the videos too.
Another example from the same video:

And another one:

 

[RepresentingWrath]

What Corty said once again. Also, in my opinion, you need to find a balance. As I answered previously, I think I overuse both types of tags. But not using any at all, or using mostly he\she said is also wrong.

 

[Sebas_Guzman]

There are... some concerning ideas being shared here.
Firstly, yes. The concensous is to rely on 'said' more than exclaimed, suggested, declared, roared. Those words should be used for special situations. Going out of your way to come up with synonyms gets you to close to purple prose for the casual reader and increases the odds of your work being a slog to read.

One thing no one has touched on is the fact that the authors suggesting the concensus have all trained readers to accept the standard tags. Decades and hundreds of books have conditioned the reader to accept the 'said' as invisible. When one uses an exotic tag, they end up drawing attention to it. That's the problem. You want to use the invisibility of the 'said' tag to your advantage.

To further ilustrate, here are some quick samples from Brandon Sanderson.

“You should see city skaa, Tresting,” the obligator said, turning back to watch the skaa workers. “These are actually quite diligent compared to those inside Luthadel. You have more… direct control over your skaa here. How many would you say you lose a month?”

“Oh, a half dozen or so,” Tresting said. “Some to beatings, some to exhaustion.”

“Runaways?”

“Never!” Tresting said. “When I ?rst inherited this land from my father, I had a few runaways—but I executed their families. The rest quickly lost heart. I’ve never understood men who have trouble with their skaa—I ?nd the creatures easy to control, if you show a properly ?rm hand.”

The obligator nodded, standing quietly in his gray robes.

Note how often said appeared. And note how quickly it appeared. Another one:

“Very well, Tresting,” the obligator said. “I will carry your proposal to Lord Venture, as requested. He will have a favorable report from me on your operations here.”

Tresting held in a sigh of relief. An obligator was required to witness any contract or business deal between noblemen. True, even a lowly obligator like the ones Tresting employed could serve as such a witness—but it meant so much more to impress Straff Venture’s own obligator.

The obligator turned toward him. “I will leave back down the canal this afternoon.”

“So soon?” Tresting asked. “Wouldn’t you care to stay for supper?"

This sample follows the first, but look at the changes. We have 'said' and 'asked.' But do note the actions and their placement relative to the dialogue.

The obligator smiled; he likely meant it to be disarming, but Tresting only found it eerie. “Don’t worry yourself, Tresting,” the obligator said. “If there had been any real worries about your actions, a Steel Inquisitor would have been sent here in my place.”

Tresting nodded slowly. Inquisitor. He’d never seen one of the inhuman creatures, but he had heard…stories.

“I have been satis?ed regarding your actions with the skaa women,” the obligator said, looking back over the ?elds. “What I’ve seen and heard here indicate that you always clean up your messes. A man such as yourself—eficient, productive—could go far in Luthadel. A few more years of work, some inspired mercantile deals, and who knows?”

And another passage where you see said appearing yet again. (excuse the '?' it's an artifact from the sampling).

Now, this is Brandon Sanderson, a famous name in fantasy, and this is the first pages of his mistborn book. He doesn't shy away from 'said or asked.' This is what the concensus looks like in practice.

Another consideration I dont see here is what happens in audiobook narration. When considering narration and the possibility of a bad actor, you need to remember to ensure that all the lines are clear in who they belong to. In the written form, we have the advantage of seeing where a new line starts. This is not the same for audiobooks with an inexperienced narrator. What I mean here is that an audio book production in the future might influence MORE placements of tags and identifying actions.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

They also had instances of this in the videos too.
Another example from the same video:

View attachment 19341
And another one:
View attachment 19342

My point still stands. Because all examples are out of context. Write a whole chapter, dialogue-heavy chapter mostly using he\she said, he\she replied and he\she asked. And see for yourself how it will look.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

There are... some concerning ideas being shared here.
Firstly, yes. The concensous is to rely on 'said' more than exclaimed, suggested, declared, roared. Those words should be used for special situations. Going out of your way to come up with synonyms gets you to close to purple prose for the casual reader and increases the odds of your work being a slog to read.

One thing no one has touched on is the fact that the authors suggesting the concensus have all trained readers to accept the standard tags. Decades and hundreds of books have conditioned the reader to accept the 'said' as invisible. When one uses an exotic tag, they end up drawing attention to it. That's the problem. You want to use the invisibility of the 'said' tag to your advantage.

To further ilustrate, here are some quick samples from Brandon Sanderson.

Note how often said appeared. And note how quickly it appeared. Another one:



This sample follows the first, but look at the changes. We have 'said' and 'asked.' But do note the actions and their placement relative to the dialogue.


And another passage where you see said appearing yet again. (excuse the '?' it's an artifact from the sampling).

Now, this is Brandon Sanderson, a famous name in fantasy, and this is the first pages of his mistborn book. He doesn't shy away from 'said or asked.' This is what the concensus looks like in practice.

Another consideration I dont see here is what happens in audiobook narration. When considering narration and the possibility of a bad actor, you need to remember to ensure that all the lines are clear in who they belong to. In the written form, we have the advantage of seeing where a new line starts. This is not the same for audiobooks with an inexperienced narrator.

My point still stands. Because all examples are out of context. Write a whole chapter, dialogue-heavy chapter mostly using he\she said, he\she replied and he\she asked. And see for yourself how it will look.

The authors that were suggesting only using said/asked were published, and one of them had over 200 books published.
This is the link to his video:

My point still stands. Because all examples are out of context. Write a whole chapter, dialogue-heavy chapter mostly using he\she said, he\she replied and he\she asked. And see for yourself how it will look.

He says that teachers who tell you to use other things besides said/asked are incorrect and aren't established authors. According to Jerry Jenkins, people who submit manuscripts with other words do not impress editors.

 

[Corty]

He says that teachers who tell you to use other things besides said/asked are incorrect and aren't established authors. According to Jerry Jenkins, people who submit manuscripts with other words do not impress editors.

I will still listen to my guts. It has worked so far.... especially because, if anything, I am most proud of the character dialogues, in my works.

 

[Sebas_Guzman]

The authors that were suggesting only using said/asked were published, and one of them had over 200 books published.
This is the link to his video:

He says that teachers who tell you to use other things besides said/asked are incorrect and aren't established authors. According to Jerry Jenkins, people who submit manuscripts with other words do not impress editors.

Just to make things clear, I didn't think this was wrong, and I still don't think this video is wrong after watching it. I'm on the side of this.
And he's right. Agents legitimately won't like this. You can get away with it on webnovels, but the publishing world sets their own rules, and they've trained readers. This is how the game is played.

To Sailus's concerns, no, you shouldn't write a entire chapter with just dialogue tags. You're better off using action tags for the entire chapter if you're going to go to such an extreme.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

The authors that were suggesting only using said/asked were published, and one of them had over 200 books published.
This is the link to his video:

Err, I don't really care about who gave those advice. There is no right way to write. I got way too heated and lost the purpose of my replies here. My purpose is to explain why I do things like that, or why I think it's better and so on. If you don't like the way I write or think my advice is wrong, write differently.

I think that writing web novels and writing a book to get it published is two different things. Perhaps if I were writing with an intention to get my book published in English language, I would've listened to this dude or Brandon Sanderson, or whoever else.

There was this whole thing going on with WN. They made some stupid changes and we had a few WN immigrants here. One reader and an aspiring author from WN said one thing. It was something along the lines of, "Whenever I read I skip descriptions, so I won't write descriptions." Now answer my question. Do you think that person would read English version of Brandon Sanderson's books on his phone? And answer another question. How many readers are similar to that WN reader?

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Err, I don't really care about who gave those advice. There is no right way to write. I got way too heated and lost the purpose of my replies here. My purpose is to explain why I do things like that, or why I think it's better and so on. If you don't like the way I write or think my advice is wrong, write differently.

I think that writing web novels and writing a book to get it published is two different things. Perhaps if I were writing with an intention to get my book published in English language, I would've listened to this dude or Brandon Sanderson, or whoever else.

There was this whole thing going on with WN. They made some stupid changes and we had a few WN immigrants here. One reader and an aspiring author from WN said one thing. It was something along the lines of, "Whenever I read, I skip descriptions, so I won't write descriptions." Now answer my question. Do you think that person would read English version of Brandon Sanderson's books on his phone? And answer another question. How many readers are similar to that WN reader?

I didn't think you were heated, and earlier on in this same thread I said that I don't use said/asked most of the times. I prefer using other words. I am just trying to get the opinion from people on the forums, and I thought linking from someone established would be helpful. Webnovels and published books are completely different after all. I agree with you. I am just trying to gauge how people feel here about the topic.

 

[Corty]

How many readers are similar to that WN reader?

A lot.

To be successful in the web novel style, my opinion is with Sailus here. Traditional writing rules are more like... guidelines, as Barbossa would say.

 

[Sebas_Guzman]

There was this whole thing going on with WN. They made some stupid changes and we had a few WN immigrants here. One reader and an aspiring author from WN said one thing. It was something along the lines of, "Whenever I read I skip descriptions, so I won't write descriptions." Now answer my question. Do you think that person would read English version of Brandon Sanderson's books on his phone? And answer another question. How many readers are similar to that WN reader?

Answering questions:

1. Maybe, maybe not.
2. Given how many people complain when a story isn't what they thought it was and give 1-star because of not reading the description, they are probably a minority.

What are you trying to say with these questions, Sailus? Do you want us to focus on an unknowable quantity in hopes that it's big?

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Err, I don't really care about who gave those advice. There is no right way to write. I got way too heated and lost the purpose of my replies here. My purpose is to explain why I do things like that, or why I think it's better and so on. If you don't like the way I write or think my advice is wrong, write differently.

I think that writing web novels and writing a book to get it published is two different things. Perhaps if I were writing with an intention to get my book published in English language, I would've listened to this dude or Brandon Sanderson, or whoever else.

There was this whole thing going on with WN. They made some stupid changes and we had a few WN immigrants here. One reader and an aspiring author from WN said one thing. It was something along the lines of, "Whenever I read I skip descriptions, so I won't write descriptions." Now answer my question. Do you think that person would read English version of Brandon Sanderson's books on his phone? And answer another question. How many readers are similar to that WN reader?

Also, I apologize. I can see how linking a video by an established author could be an argument of authority. There is no "right" way as you said.

 

[Sebas_Guzman]

A lot.

To be successful in the web novel style, my opinion is with Sailus here. Traditional writing rules are more like... guidelines, as Barbossa would say.

Okay, let's make sure we all are clear on something here, because I think we all agree, but thoughts are flying all over the place.
There is a difference between being a good storyteller, and being a good writer. Rowling and Stephen King, are, according to other writers, not good 'writers.'
Rowling abuses adverbs, and I don't remember the critisisms of king because of how dry and technical they were. So, obviously, there is flexibility when implementing.
As for the traditional rules, they are there to maximize profit potential and understanding. That's all it is. They aid your odds. If you're publishing, you follow those rules to increase your odds. It's always about probability.

Now, here is where I take minor issue. I want to ensure we appreciate the methodology here.
If you go right now, and you look at Shirtaloon's most recent chapter of He Who Fights Monsters, and you look at that chapter of dialogue, do you know which tags you're going to see, one after the other?
There are 50 lines of dialogue. There are 31 that have 'said' as a tag. 5 have asked. 5 have told. There are minimal exotic tags.

Also, I apologize. I can see how linking a video by an established author could be an argument of authority. There is no "right" way as you said.

I don't think you should apologize RepresentingEnvy . Appealing to authority is bad when you're doing it blindly. This guy probably has results. You're citing someone with experience in publishing. And to follow up on Sailus's thought, there is absolutely a wrong way to write in the context of having other people read your work. Anyone that says otherwise hasn't experienced it.

The wrong way to write, is when you write and no one understands what you're trying to convey.
How could anyone call an incomprehensible mess, "right."
Writing is about communicating ideas. If you don't communicate you're failing.

And then we go back to the guidelines. The whole thing with 'said' and them is born out of making communication efficient, because efficient communication is more likely to be profitable.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I didn't think you were heated, and earlier on in this same thread I said that I don't use said/asked most of the times. I prefer using other words. I am just trying to get the opinion from people on the forums, and I thought linking from someone established would be helpful. Webnovels and published books are completely different after all. I agree with you. I am just trying to gauge how people feel here about the topic.

You didn't say it, and perhaps you didn't feel it, but I felt how I started losing the point of what I wanted to say. I'm not here to say my style is better or worse. And I had to remind this to myself, not you. So yeah, no offence, and no offence taken.

A lot.

To be successful in the web novel style, my opinion is with Sailus here. Traditional writing rules are more like... guidelines, as Barbossa would say.

It was rhetorical question, and I agree with you.

Answering questions:

1. Maybe, maybe not.
2. Given how many people complain when a story isn't what they thought it was and give 1-star because of not reading the description, they are probably a minority.

What are you trying to say with these questions, Sailus? Do you want us to focus on an unknowable quantity in hopes that it's big?

Some people still think that web novels and hardcovers are the same thing, when in fact they are not. Give Brandon Sanderson(Or almost any established author) an incognito account on WN and make them write. Personally, I think he will fail and won't become popular. Because you need to freaking churn out 3-4 chapters a day and you don't have an ending after hundred chapters or time to rest. You can't just plan a single book, write 60-100k words and call it a day. Some WN readers won't even glance at a novel that has less than, for example, 200k words.

What else? People usually read hardcovers in their native languages. Almost any popular hardcover will get a translation, and you don't even need to buy it. You can use some piracy magic and get Brandon Sanderson's book in your native language. Is it same for web novels or light novels? No. It's a very niche thing, it's still way more niche than Anime or manga. So you will use whatever means necessary to get more chapters. Usually it's either learning Japanes\Chinese\Korean, which is out of the question, or using English that a lot of people learn\study, or use google translate on novels that were translated to Enlgish as it gives better results. So yeah, hello to those guys that were talking in Spanish language in the comments to my novel, or those people who talked in Arabic(I forget what exact language it was).

Also, a lot, A LOT of people who read WNs and LNs won't read a hardcover. Give them trashy smut harem, they will read it. Give them the freaking Earthsea Cycle and they will tell it's boring. Maybe I'm wrong here, but this is what I felt when I was writing, this is what I felt when I saw trending novels on different sites, this is what I felt when I looked at the most popular WNs and LNs. This stems from my experience, and experience of authors from this forum. Web novels and hardcovers are two different things. So writing a web novel as if you are writing a hardcover won't do you any good. You can use certain tips and tricks, you can listen to advice and so on, but don't do it exactly the same way.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Okay, let's make sure we all are clear on something here, because I think we all agree, but thoughts are flying all over the place.
There is a difference between being a good storyteller, and being a good writer. Rowling and Stephen King, are, according to other writers, not good 'writers.'
Rowling abuses adverbs, and I don't remember the critisisms of king because of how dry and technical they were. So, obviously, there is flexibility when implementing.
As for the traditional rules, they are they to maximize profit potential and understanding. That's all it is. They aid your odds. If you're publishing, you follow those rules to increase your odds. It's always about probability.

Now, here is where I take minor issue. I want to ensure we appreciate the methodology here.
If you go right now, and you look at Shirtaloon's most recent chapter of He Who Fights Monsters, and you look at that chapter of dialogue, do you know which tags you're going to see, one after the other?
There are 50 lines of dialogue. There are 31 that have 'said' as a tag. 5 have asked. 5 have told. There are minimal exotic tags.


I don't think you should apologize. Appealing to authority is bad when you're doing it blindly. This guy probably has results. You're citing someone with experience in publishing. And to follow up on Sailus's thought, there is absolutely a wrong way to write in the context of having other people read your work. Anyone that says otherwise hasn't experienced it.

The wrong way to write, is when you write and no one understands what you're trying to convey.
How could anyone call an incomprehensible mess, "right."
Writing is about communicating ideas. If you don't communicate you're failing.

And then we go back to the guidelines. The whole thing with 'said' and them is born out of making communication efficient, because efficient communication is more likely to be profitable.

Oh, thanks this is some helpful stuff, and in the video he does talk about efficiency and concision as it related to dialogue. I find concision is brought up a lot in these videos, and that could probably spark a whole new conversation about cutting dialogue to the minimum while still achieving a goal. Such as cutting out pointless adverbs, adjectives, etc.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

And to follow up on Sailus's thought, there is absolutely a wrong way to write in the context of having other people read your work. Anyone that says otherwise hasn't experienced it.

The wrong way to write, is when you write and no one understands what you're trying to convey.
How could anyone call an incomprehensible mess, "right."
Writing is about communicating ideas. If you don't communicate you're failing.

And then we go back to the guidelines. The whole thing with 'said' and them is born out of making communication efficient, because efficient communication is more likely to be profitable.

I don't think Sailus was suggesting that there is no wrong way to write, but that the right way is flexible and depends on medium.