Debate me

Kilolo

I'm so kewl
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
419
Points
103
I believe that would be a good idea for the most part.
but it would be reaaaally weird to put such a category in a writer forum.

i mean, SH is ultimately a webnovels site, not a hive to internet internet randos. agreeing to those could leads to snowballing into more unrelated subforum and eventually chipping away SH real identity
 

T.K._Paradox

Was Divided By Zero: Found Glovebox Jesus
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
1,069
Points
153
but it would be reaaaally weird to put such a category in a writer forum.

i mean, SH is ultimately a webnovels site, not a hive to internet internet randos. agreeing to those could leads to snowballing into more unrelated subforum and eventually chipping away SH real identity
It would probably devolve into a echo chamber, because for some reason if you don't preface a debate thread with 'shouldn't be taken too seriously' people devolve into shit tossing monkeys screaming that their opinion is also right and only they, and people like them should have their opinions heard.
The moment I finish the November Writing Grind, and get off my depressed transgirl ass, I either need to write about a sentient Lair that expresses itself as a paradox, causing trouble for the dragon that lives in it, or pitch the idea to someone I halfway trust.

You got a smile out of me, and quite possibly inspired a story.



As for the Liar's Paradox, well, yes. One could get around it by pitching a heated debate over what the antecedent of "this" is, but I'm several shades too sober for what is essentially a giant lawyer joke :P
Any other things you'd like to toss my way? If you want to debate another topic I'd be more than happy to.
 

KoyukiMegumi

Kitty
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
1,201
Points
153
Qell we cant say YOURE one of those women, tho. Nursing is a job that requires strict education but has a comparatively low payout. Smh its wack. Doctors specialize in just one or two things and get paid fuck loads more while yall do just about everything else they dont want to do themselves and get paid way less.

It ain't easy being a Nightingale
Yes, you should see a hospital without us. It doesn't run. :< We do heavy lifting too. Those 300-pound patients don't move by themselves. Which is why I wanted to be part of the order (other... Stupid autocorrect) group. :blob_no: The one who didn't want higher education and no labor work, but wants higher pay! :c I wanna be one!

:c Nurses are under-appreciated. And it will still be after this pandemic.:blob_teary:
 
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greyblob

"Staff Memeber" pleasr
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
2,745
Points
153
Yes, you should see a hospital without us. It doesn't run. :< We do heavy lifting too. Those 300-pound patients don't move by themselves. Which is why I wanted to be part of the order group. :blob_no: The one who didn't want higher education and no labor work, but wants higher pay! :c I wanna be one!

:c Nurses are under-appreciated. And it will still be after this pandemic.:blob_teary:
work for a couple of years and gather some experience
save a bunch of money and open a private business
offer simple services such as attaching cannulas and ivs
profit

people without insurance would pay you instead of remortgaging their house for an ambulance visit
 

TheTrinary

Hi, I'm Stephen
Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Messages
1,011
Points
153
The wage gap exists only because most women want cushy desk jobs and dont often choose careers requiring higher education or intensive labor.
I feel like you're talking about the actual wage gap as opposed to the adjusted wage gap.

No one cares about the actual wage gap. When people are complaining about discrepancy, they're talking about the adjusted statistics. When account for ALL the things you've brought up there is still a 5% gap in overall pay between the sexes(?). So right away, that's actually a big deal. Let's be clear, 5% is a big number. In a standard work year of 260 days, women are only being paid for aprox. 247. In other words, it's the equivalent of having to work for no pay for a full day slightly over once a month.

Not the most egregious discrepancy, but let's not act like that isn't a big deal.

Now it's actually worse than that, because the actual vs. adjusted takes into account one thing that is pretty obviously biased but never gets talked about: time worked.

1) Maternity leave. One of two factors that accounts for the different hours is maternity leave. Women can't physically work as long as men because they have to take time off to give birth. A man has just as much responsibility in a baby being born, but practically they don't bear the brunt of the downsides like women do.

And yes, this is an issue. Society needs a steady birth rate to function. You can't penalize women for doing something that keeps society functioning. (Japan). That's the whole push for stronger protections for maternity leave. It is important and "adjusting" time spent off for maternity leave is ludicrous.

And I want to be clear on this point. This isn't a choice. From a macro-societal perspective, women don't have a choice here. It is absolutely necessary that women have babies and take maternity leave. You can point to single individuals and say, "they have a choice", but if you give EVERYONE a choice, then society collapses. So that's great policy making there.

2) Opportunity of time. Men work overtime more than women. Sure. But also, men are OFFERED overtime more than women. You can't just blanket adjust for pay gap when women are denied the opportunity to work as many hours as men. If men are given more hours, then no duh, they're going to work more hours.

MATH

Even if we take the low end numbers and say 5% as a baseline (the accepted amount of sexism in the adjusted pay discrepancy), that's still pretty significant. If 5% of the time men are offered an 8 hour overtime shift when women are not, that's a problem and it adds up.

40/8 = 20%. 20%x 1.5 (rate of pay for overtime)= 1 shift is +30% of base pay. Only happens 5% of the time so +1.5%.

So now we're at a pay differential of 6.5%, not 5.

But wait! There's maternity leave.

There are, let's say, 160 M works. Half are women. So you have 80M workers who take maternity leave at a rate of 70% for 10 weeks.
Men on the other hand 80m at 40% at 1 week. (Rounding to make things simple)

So the base discrepancy of having a child between the two is a difference of 35 days for women (7 weeks) for women - 2 days for men.

The impact of a child is a difference of 33 days worked.
We'll say the family has 2.5 children over the course of their lifetime, then you have a difference of aprox. 83 days lost by women in the work force over the course of their life time carrying out a completely necessary function.

83 days
42 years before retirement on average
Divide the totals (Expected years before retirement) and you end up with a lifetime loss of about 1%. So add that on.

Now we're a CONSERVATIVE pay differential of 2.5% + 5.

Women make, on average, 7.5% less money than men. Once again, best case scenario for these numbers. The reality is probably somewhere between 8.5 - 10%. Varying on industry.


CONCLUSION

I'd be pissed about making 5% less money than someone else just because. But it's worse than that. I'm tired and don't want to go into it, but if you take into account COST differential and the fact that it's just frankly more expensive to be a woman (health insurance anyone?) then looking at it as a pure standard of living adjustment, the pay gap is well above 10%.

But hey. I'm sure if your boss came in and said, "I'm going to pay you 10% less because the color of your skin", you'd be super cool with it. It's not lie he's paying you 30% less.
 
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lnv

✪ Well-Known Hypocrite
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
487
Points
133
I'm also a fan of debate. I will take either side of any topic, regardless of what my actual opinions are.

The only issue is that I'm having a hard time coming up with a topic for this. So, instead, I will just go off a debate topics list I found with a quick web-search.

You should never volunteer to take any side... what if someone asks you to debate who is superior, you or a maggot. And ask you take the side of the maggot?
 

Lloyd

Funny Guy :)
Joined
Jun 2, 2020
Messages
2,538
Points
153
I feel like you're talking about the actual wage gap as opposed to the adjusted wage gap.

No one cares about the actual wage gap. When people are complaining about discrepancy, they're talking about the adjusted statistics. When account for ALL the things you've brought up there is still a 5% gap in overall pay between the sexes(?). So right away, that's actually a big deal. Let's be clear, 5% is a big number. In a standard work year of 260 days, women are only being paid for aprox. 247. In other words, it's the equivalent of having to work for no pay for a full day slightly over once a month.

Not the most egregious discrepancy, but let's not act like that isn't a big deal.

Now it's actually worse than that, because the actual vs. adjusted takes into account one thing that is pretty obviously biased but never gets talked about: time worked.

1) Maternity leave. One of two factors that accounts for the different hours is maternity leave. Women can't physically work as long as men because they have to take time off to give birth. A man has just as much responsibility in a baby being born, but practically they don't bear the brunt of the downsides like women do.

And yes, this is an issue. Society needs a steady birth rate to function. You can't penalize women for doing something that keeps society functioning. (Japan). That's the whole push for stronger protections for maternity leave. It is important and "adjusting" time spent off for maternity leave is ludicrous.

And I want to be clear on this point. This isn't a choice. From a macro-societal perspective, women don't have a choice here. It is absolutely necessary that women have babies and take maternity leave. You can point to single individuals and say, "they have a choice", but if you give EVERYONE a choice, then society collapses. So that's great policy making there.

2) Opportunity of time. Men work overtime more than women. Sure. But also, men are OFFERED overtime more than women. You can't just blanket adjust for pay gap when women are denied the opportunity to work as many hours as men. If men are given more hours, then no duh, they're going to work more hours.

MATH

Even if we take the low end numbers and say 5% as a baseline (the accepted amount of sexism in the adjusted pay discrepancy), that's still pretty significant. If 5% of the time men are offered an 8 hour overtime shift when women are not, that's a problem and it adds up.

40/8 = 20%. 20%x 1.5 (rate of pay for overtime)= 1 shift is +30% of base pay. Only happens 5% of the time so +1.5%.

So now we're at a pay differential of 6.5%, not 5.

But wait! There's maternity leave.

There are, let's say, 8 M works. Half are women. So you have 4M workers who take maternity leave at a rate of 70% for 10 weeks.
Men on the other hand 4m at 40% at 1 week. (Rounding to make things simple)

So the base discrepancy of having a child between the two is a difference of 35 days for women (7 weeks) for women - 2 days for men.

The impact of a child is a difference of 33 days worked.
We'll say the family has 2.5 children over the course of their lifetime, then you have a difference of aprox. 83 days lost by women in the work force over the course of their life time carrying out a completely necessary function.

83 days
42 years before retirement on average
Divide the totals (Expected years before retirement) and you end up with a lifetime loss of about 1%. So add that on.

Now we're a CONSERVATIVE pay differential of 2.5% + 5.

Women make, on average, 7.5% less money than men. Once again, best case scenario for these numbers. The reality is probably somewhere between 8.5 - 10%. Varying on industry.


CONCLUSION

I'd be pissed about making 5% less money than someone else just because. But it's worse than that. I'm tired and don't want to go into it, but if you take into account COST differential and the fact that it's just frankly more expensive to be a woman (health insurance anyone?) then looking at it as a pure standard of living adjustment, the pay gap is well above 10%.

But hey. I'm sure if your boss came in and said, "I'm going to pay you 10% less because the color of your skin", you'd be super cool with it. It's not lie he's paying you 30% less.
Women shouldn't even be working in the first place.
 

Zirrboy

Fueled by anger
Joined
Jan 25, 2021
Messages
1,192
Points
153
Your statement is a lair's paradox

I believe that would be a good idea for the most part.
The moment I finish the November Writing Grind, and get off my depressed transgirl ass, I either need to write about a sentient Lair that expresses itself as a paradox, causing trouble for the dragon that lives in it, or pitch the idea to someone I halfway trust.

You got a smile out of me, and quite possibly inspired a story.



As for the Liar's Paradox, well, yes. One could get around it by pitching a heated debate over what the antecedent of "this" is, but I'm several shades too sober for what is essentially a giant lawyer joke :P
You made me look up "lair's paradox" because one misspelled "liar" and the other brought up an actual lair out of nowhere
 

Jemini

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
2,037
Points
153
You should never volunteer to take any side... what if someone asks you to debate who is superior, you or a maggot. And ask you take the side of the maggot?

Then I would take it down the direction of maggots being edible, and dare the other person to take it down the direction of cannibalisms.

The mere fact you have concerns over such petty issues says you are completely unaware of how a debate-loving person's mind works. I will take either side of any issue (assuming the other guy is intellectually honest and not trying to false frame things when I play devil's advocate on a subject.)
 

NikkuNii

Socially awkward Vampire/Yandere Madlad
Joined
Nov 18, 2021
Messages
226
Points
83
Mike Wazowski winks cuz he only has one eye.
 
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