Backwards progress in fantasy

NotaNuffian

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I hate the trope "the older the better"

Like in all the xias (wuxia, xianxia, etc), MC and some lucky folks will somewhat get a super-powerful McGuffin and wreck shit in modern times.

Yes, the explanation can be as such:
1. Super-powered Prototype
2. Changes in the atmosphere that result in degradation
3. Skills got diluted for the masses (A person is smart, people are stupid)

But I always find it slightly iffy that the march of progress can't compete with the lost technology and giggled with glee when sometimes the MC with old tech gets slightly unvirgined by new tech.
 

ElijahRyne

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This trope annoys me.
By backwards progress I mean when at the beginning of time there was this super amazing thing amd yadayada, each consequent generation became worse, so the goal of progress is to trace their roots to the original amazing thing. So, rather than building on top of existing achievements, a species devolves instead. Backwards evolution.
It is hugely common in xianxia, and in ordinary fantasy too.
I hate it.
Agreed, it always has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Especially with how such ideas have been instrumental in various atrocities both historic and modern. The trend of history has largely been twords progress, with occasional stumbles and stutters. Not one of degradation until an enlightened individual, or group, leads the people back to the ‘prosperity’ of the past.
 

ACertainPassingUser

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Don't get me started on that one. Them ninjas have TVs but no telephone? Or is there a telephone? Building modern bridges, but then that gets forgotten very quickly, and they revert to medieval Japan.

That show is a complete mess.
Back before the manga even started, Naruto was planned to be themed around modern steampunk era world type.

Traces of them can be seen in many villages and the building designs that fits better to be steampunk city than an actual ancient hidden shinobi japanese village type.

Those other modern technology like TV, Radio, Bridges, and 8 bit laboratory computer were probably afterthought of the author.
 

BearlyAlive

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The trope is pretty shit in most powe fantasy stories where it just exists for MC to get his McGuffin or his trophy SSR species waifu. Even in the -xias it's mostly just there to shove into the readers face that "there will be someone stronger than MC lolol, really, I promise, he won't win, this time for su... yeah, no lelelel, MCs gonna steamroll them after I forgot about them for 1000000 chapters lol"
 

BlackKnightX

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Is advanced ancient civilization considered one? I love that trope because it relates to many cool theories in real life history.

But literal backward progression can work if the beginning is the age of gods or something like that. Obviously, people living after that age are just mere mortals, and ascending to godhood or that level would be catching up to the past achievements. It still makes sense.

But maybe you're talking about something else? Any example would be appreciated.
 

GlassRose

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I understand, but there are a few points I'd like to make. Firstly, fantasy is often seen as set in a certain time period, around Medieval to Renaissance times, but often also features races that can live to be very old, and very old worlds. Regression can then be an explanation to reconcile these different factors, so long as there is a good explanation.

Also, a fallen hyper-advanced ancient civilization means ruins to explore, frought with dangers, potentially what caused the collapse in the first place. It means that the story will reward characters for exploring and going into danger with powerful artifacts and lost magical knowledge, rewarding danger and other exciting things to read about. It's a more common and popular type of story than one where to gain more power you-! Study. Experiment. Like science in the real world.

Of course there are stories where the protagonist studies magic themselves to become powerful rather than hunting for lost secrets, The Reincarnation of Alysara is a wonderful example of this, but it's far less common, because a lot of people like the more adventure-y kinds of fantasy, it's what they're used to, and ancient advanced knowledge/technology is a real easy way to reward characters for doing that. Especially when you're not using a litrpg style progression system.

Another thing is, 'old' is often synonymous with 'rare', and people tend to have the idea that rare=better, so that's how they shape their worlds when they write.

That said, it is a bit of an overused trope. And the old-world low-technology problem can be solved via other means, like old races being slow to change, magic advancements are horded and kept secret by those in power and thus progress is slow because everyone keeps the knowledge they find to themselves, etc.

And it makes more sense when it's a sudden loss, not a gradual one like you described, yes. Because society tends to progress over time, people are constantly trying to find better ways to do things, solve problems, use less effort to solve old problems, etc. If something is worse, it gets left behind. So to regress, something big needs to happen that wipes out either the knowledge of how to do the advanced thing directly (the death of everyone who knew how, and the destruction or loss of any records on how), or the resource required to apply that knowledge, that would then result in the natural loss of that knowledge as it becomes irrelevant. That could tie in to a massive regression too, if all of society had advanced so far that they forgot all the basic knowledge/skills required to reach the point that they had risen to, only for something to happen that makes their current level of technology useless, and having phased out all the old tech and know-how, they have to build back up from 0 again.
 
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LilRora

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I've seen this a ton in reincarnation stories, where the mc reincarnates like five hundred or a thousand years in the future and discovers that magic is declining, the average strength is waning, and that his generation was the last generation of legendary magicians. Then he proceeds to establish dominanace in the worse cases, then finds out that there is actually a super secret organization that can still match him in his prime for whatever reason (usually being evil, such as colluding with demons) in other kind of worse cases.

I love when there is some fallen alien civilization though, at least if it's presented well. This is a sort of reminder what can happen if we're not careful, and it can be a great way to advance the plot, because there can be virtually everything in those ruins. It offers a lot of freedom, generally.
 

dummycake

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I love the idea of Gods introducing a system or magic to stop the progress of mankind.
"we can spit fire and teleport, why invest in science?"
I've seen that done in 1 novel but I don't remember the name...
 

dummycake

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Dragon Ball Z is mediocre at best. The original Dragon Ball story is 10 times better.
right. that proves that making them stronger over the time doesn't make it better. Naruto was better when it was ninja stuff not battles between gods.
 

Corty

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right. that proves that making them stronger over the time doesn't make it better. Naruto was better when it was ninja stuff not battles between gods.
A ceiling must be introduced early, and when the characters reach that ceiling the story has to end. Simple.
 

AYM

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so fucking true. bringing the ceiling up can be done one or two times, but if it's used constantly, the audience will stop caring.
You don't like reading about characters who reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle?
 

dummycake

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You don't like reading about characters who reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle?
I know this is a joke but I don't really like that concept lol
"theres's always someone stronger than you" is cool but you're not doing Dragon Ball Super for that reason, you're doing for money
the real saying should be "there's always money to be made"
 

Corty

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You don't like reading about characters who reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle only to discover there's a higher realm to reach the pinnacle?
No, that is why I wrote my own cultivation novel because I was fed up with it. :blob_catflip:
 
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