Authors ruining their stories with terrible romance

[Deeprotsorcerer]

While I would agree with you when concerning non-Western countries, when its regarding western society, specifically America, I think Discount is completely correct. Marriage in America does heavily favor women.

Meh. Marriage in America heavily favors women when said marriage turns into a divorce, and then that's only up to the point where the court demands that the man pays child support or gives the woman custody due to the traditionalist view of the woman as the home maker and caretaker. Afterwards, women who were once married are considered damaged goods, in both their social and professional lives. During a marriage, women are still expected to be subservient; providing sex, chores, and social utility (trophy wife) even if they want to pursue a career of their own.

The idea that marriage in America heavily favors women in all respects rises mostly from a overreaction to feminism just as there was an overreaction to desegregation (an extreme example, but one that I think can be well understood without the need for a lengthy discussion).

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

during a marriage women as still expected to be subservient, providing sex, chores, and social utility (trophy wife) even if they want to pursue a career of their own.

Yeah that's a load of bullshit. Come back to the present dude.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

Yeah that's a load of bullshit. Come back to the present dude.

You still have major cultural hives in the West that expect this. Look at this modern article from Focus on the Family. A large Christian media influence.

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-qa/submission-of-wives-to-husbands/

You can see the same sentiment in parts of the manosphere, particularly with pundits like RooshV and Kevin Samuels who push for a return to a version of this traditional veiwpoint as well as a hard financial interpretation of marriage's significance.

I'm not saying that other dynamics don't exist. You can see this in the rise of domestic abuse cases against men that go underreported and underrepresented- mocked even, or the increased rate of women marrying down or refusing to marry at all (though one could argue that there's other factors at play here instead of a powershift). Most male-female power imbalances still weigh more heavily on the side of the male.

I don't see how Discount is completely correct. I will also easily say that the above statement isn't completely correct. Different people have different experiences. Saying it's all one side or the other is just not true.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

You still have major cultural hives in the West that expect this, look at this modern article from Focus on the Family. A large Christian media influence.

While this will always be present regardless of how "modern" we get as a people, you won't convince me its anything more than a small minority as of now. And as for the rest, women control the dating game, especially because of dating apps, and they rule the courts where few judges are willing to rule against a woman even if it's obviously the best decision, this part here being where some of the old traditionalism backfires on men.

As for domestic abuse, I personally faced that. Was smacked around by an ex once when I was a teenager, and I didn't know what to do at first because while I was very scrappy, it was my first time being attacked by a woman. Had been suspended from school more than once prior for fighting another man, like the norm, but being hit by a woman was new to me. It was a shocking experience. I was unprepared for it. Finally, after I was mocked and ridiculed for bringing it up, I did something about it myself. I broke her jaw. She has left scratches down the side of my face, some that were bad that it took weeks to heal. I was 15, she was 17. So I snapped and now she still speaks funny at times when she says certain words because of something that happened during the healing process. Me being into boxing since I was in elementary school probably had something to do with the extensive damage I caused, but I still maintain that I was very restrained with myself to deal with it for as long as I did. I have a scar on my chest where she came at me with a nail file during a prior encounter before the incident where I struck back that I still have to remind me of her even to this day.

 

[SakeVision]

This is incredibly silly.

Say hi to Elphelt.

View attachment 11633

Because Elphelt is an artificial being designed to feel human emotions too well, she fell madly in love with the idea of love, despite love being forbidden for her. Because she doesn't get out much, she sees marriage as the ultimate expression of love, so she wants to get married. She doesn't seem to care much about the "who" part of the equation.

You can not, and will not convince Elphelt of a different interpretation of marriage. If you tried, she'd brush you off, use logical fallacies, explain things from a completely alien point of reference than yours, and she might even cry until you give up. Then you'd probably end up married to her. If she had the mind to do it, she could force you.

The "meaning" behind marriage is subjective, and you cannot nail down a subjective standard, you can only state the number of variations and make assumptions about how much influence they held/hold for a certain time period, culture, or situation. Even if you logos and pathos hard enough to get most people to agree to one, it'll drift in a matter of days or years or generations.

Elphelt a cute! Force me to marry you, and train me into a perfect spouse whether I initially like it or not, based elphelt!!!!!!111

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

While this will always be present regardless of how "modern" we get as a people, you won't convince me its anything more than a small minority as of now. And as for the rest, women control the dating game, especially because of dating apps, and they rule the courts where few judges are willing to rule against a woman even if it's obviously the best decision, this part here being where some of the old traditionalism backfires on men.

As for domestic abuse, I personally faced that. Was smacked around by an ex once when I was a teenager, and I didn't know what to do at first because while I was very scrappy, it was my first time being attacked by a woman. Had been suspended from school more than once prior for fighting another man, like the norm, but being hit by a woman was new to me. Finally, after I was mocked and ridiculed for bringing it up, I did something about it myself. I broke her jaw. She has left scratches down the side of my face, some that were bad that it took weeks to heal. I was 15, she was 17. So I snapped and now she still speaks funny at times when she says certain words because of something that happened during the healing process. Me being into boxing since I was in elementary school probably had something to do with the extensive damage I caused, but I still maintain that I was very restrained with myself to deal with it for as long as I did. I have a scar on my chest where she came at me with a nail file during a prior encounter before the incident where I struck back that I still have to remind me of her even to this day.

What happened to you was horrible, and should never have happened. I understand that nothing I say can dampen it, but for what it's worth, I acknowledge you. I wish that the situation could have been resolved without violence on either side, but I understand that you very likely did what you believed was the only thing you could do at the time.

As for the dating game... that's very messy. It is unfair to men, but the ones that control it are really the owners of the apps who harvest money from everyone, and the top 10% of women and perhaps the top 5% of men. Several women I know who are firmly average in the looks department suffer similar frustrations and say that men have all the power. There's so many perspectives here, and I'm so uninvolved in and uninformed of the scene that I'm afraid I'll have to back down from the topic before I say something I can't defend with confidence.

The idea that ultra and semi ultra traditionalist marriages are only a small minority is something I'll have to disagree with. The most extreme cases are shrinking fast, but we have over 90 million Evangelicals and 70 million Catholics in the States, even taking half of each would leave the dogmatic standard of female-subservient marriage as more than a small minority and that's before you account for non-denominational adherents and their non-practicing children that bear the scars of their influence. Then there's fourtune 500, military, and immigrant families to account for.

 

[SakeVision]

I have a scar on my chest where she came at me with a nail file during a prior encounter before the incident where I struck back that I still have to remind me of her even to this day.

That's so beautiful! I'd love to have scars from a person I love ;3 To scar and be scarred, to cause and feel pain, in a cycle of mutual abuse!

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

The idea that ultra and semi ultra traditionalist marriages are only a small minority is something I'll have to disagree with.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

And thank you for the acknowledgment. It's amazing the looks people will give you when you mention that women can also be the abuser. As I said before, I still box, (have so for the past 19, going on 20 years), and regularly do cardio and lift weights, and people think it's crazy that a woman attacked me and got away with it. But I'm like...what could I do? If I had just reacted in retalitaion immediately, I'd have been blamed for the incident regardless of the circumstances. The only reason I got away scott-free from hurting my abusive ex before, is because there were several people that had observed the signs, (people that I wasn't even aware of mind you,) who confirmed my story and backed me up when authorities came asking questions.

 

[AKnightWithaKnife]

Time for a Catholic to throw his hat in to the ring.
Marriage is seen as the last step in terms of deepening your faith. So usually most Catholics or at least ones from Africa wait years before they get married. case in point my own parents. they lived with each other for 15 years had 5 kids before they decided to legally and spiritually become married. The case in point the reason for marriage and its roles can vary between cultures. In my culture for example in marriage the WOMEN claims the man. he doesn't propose nor advances first.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

Time for a Catholic to throw his hat in to the ring.
Marriage is seen as the last step in terms of deepening your faith. So usually most Catholics or at least ones from Africa wait years before they get married. case in point my own parents. they lived with each other for 15 years had 5 kids before they decided to legally and spiritually become married. The case in point the reason for marriage and its roles can vary between cultures. In my culture for example in marriage the WOMEN claims the man. he doesn't propose nor advances first.

Interesting.

I'd pick the hell out of your brains if I wasn't working on L^3 right now. Are you from a female dominant culture? How far removed are you from the Capitalist-Catholic West and how do different interpretations of the Catholic faith influence marriage where you're from?

 

[Varstark]

Not to interrupt a thankfully civil discussion, but I feel it's best to make a separate thread on General Chat for this considering we've pretty much completely derailed from the OP's subject. I know the mods here don't have the time and resources to put their foot down on it, so we might as well self-regulate.

 

[AKnightWithaKnife]

Interesting.

I'd pick the hell out of your brains if I wasn't working on L^3 right now. Are you from a female dominant culture? How far removed are you from the Capitalist-Catholic West and how do different interpretations of the Catholic faith influence marriage where you're from?

were an AGE dominated culture since we believe the older person is always right. before Catholicism was introduced to my culture marriage was weird lose thing that lead to more problems than solutions.
I would say that Catholism has improved marriage for the better in our culture because it gave us set roles to bend to our needs. For example before the introduction of Catholism there where a lot of issues with parring with huge age differences being the norm leading to a host of issues

 

[KiraMinoru]

Not to interrupt a thankfully civil discussion, but I feel it's best to make a separate thread on General Chat for this considering we've pretty much completely derailed from the OP's subject. I know the mods here don't have the time and resources to put their foot down on it, so we might as well self-regulate.

Thread should be called “Marriage is bait.”

 

[Lloyd]

were an AGE dominated culture since we believe the older person is always right. before Catholicism was introduced to my culture marriage was weird lose thing that lead to more problems than solutions.
I would say that Catholism has improved marriage for the better in our culture because it gave us set roles to bend to our needs. For example before the introduction of Catholism there where a lot of issues with parring with huge age differences being the norm leading to a host of issues

Without god there is no point to marriage.

 

[AKnightWithaKnife]

Not to interrupt a thankfully civil discussion, but I feel it's best to make a separate thread on General Chat for this considering we've pretty much completely derailed from the OP's subject. I know the mods here don't have the time and resources to put their foot down on it, so we might as well self-regulate.

Without god there is no point to marriage.

You know arranged marriages ? ive been set up one since i was 5. and you know at this point im not mad infact both of us are glad. we don't have to search or lean anything about another person

 

[Varstark]

I'll make it and link it here.

Edit:

Gender and Sex + Marriage: Outdated Bait or Worthy Endgame?

Carrying on from derailed thread: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/authors-ruining-their-stories-with-terrible-romance.8101/

forum.scribblehub.com

Here ya guys go. Have at it.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

As a mercenary, I am uniquely qualified to answer this question.

I am primarily a science fantasy writer. I quit uni because I felt like I'd make a miserable pharmacist, and noticed that I'd be drowning in student debt if I decided to complete the path to becoming a psychologist, so I decided to make money off of my words as a ghost writer (a big mistake, but one that I was too stubborn to give up on I mooched and skated by for two years, but I figured out how to sustain my self within that time). Last year, I serviced exactly one science fantasy client. Almost all the rest was porn and romance and SEO articles (mostly SEO articles, it isn't sex that sells, it's sales that sells).

I had to shift my talents towards the most wanted fields or starve, so I did. Eventually I got good at it because I had to. Some authors are desperate enough for feedback or even just attention that they'll grasp the low hanging fruit of romance because they know that at least someone will read them.

For a certain class of author, views are air. What lengths are you willing to go to for a few extra breaths?



That's a reductionist take on the topic, though it does have some truth to it in some situations due to gender norms clashing with social progress. There have been women that exploit their partners through our antiquated marriage system just like there's women who kill their husbands for insurance money. Such incidents are horrible, and they should be curbed, but they don't happen as often as the most vocal people would say they do, and it's far from the only negative scenario. Marriage has and still is more commonly a tool of oppression against women than men, especially in non-Western countries.



True to an extent. Marriage is also a step many mushy gushy naiive couples take because they hold ultra-traditionalist views or are just really sentimental. Incentives exist beyond the financial even if financial (and therefore, survival) influences represent a strong undercurrent behind a couple's decision to jump the broom.



Yes. Yes. And more yes, I am very guilty of this, see my response to Root.



Agreed. The same elements of tension, growth, mystery, and climax/catharsis found in other plots needs to be present in romance plots for them to be interesting, too many authors confuse shipping with romance, and that is where they fail. As someone who got good at romance before getting okay-ish at handling real relationships, however, I can state with absolute confidence that you don't need to socialize to grind romance exp. You just have to read other books in the genre and dissect them, you can do the same for the millitary, western, and other niche "hard" to write genres.

As an aside: a lot of the discussion regarding what romance and marriage means has users trying to force a solid interpretation through that should be accepted as the standard from which all other viewpoints spring.

This is incredibly silly.

Say hi to Elphelt.

View attachment 11633

Because Elphelt is an artificial being designed to feel human emotions too well, she fell madly in love with the idea of love, despite love being forbidden for her. Because she doesn't get out much, she sees marriage as the ultimate expression of love, so she wants to get married. She doesn't seem to care much about the "who" part of the equation.

You can not, and will not convince Elphelt of a different interpretation of marriage. If you tried, she'd brush you off, use logical fallacies, explain things from a completely alien point of reference than yours, and she might even cry until you give up. Then you'd probably end up married to her. If she had the mind to do it, she could force you.

The "meaning" behind marriage is subjective, and you cannot nail down a subjective standard, you can only state the number of variations and make assumptions about how much influence they held/hold for a certain time period, culture, or situation. Even if you logos and pathos hard enough to get most people to agree to one, it'll drift in a matter of days or years or generations.

TRAD wife

 

[RepresentingCaution]

I'm just going to have to file this away because left-handed ness is just a weird flex. Really? a Left-hand chart? That's just a really weird attempt at a mental health comparison. It's barely even vaguely similar. Doesn't confirm anything. It's not even a proper comparison. People choose to be "non-binary" or "trans". They weren't born so. People born with a dominant left hand didn't choose for their left hand to be dominant. They can choose to use the other hand or be forced to if that fits your take better, but they were still born with the left hand being dominant. This is incompatible as a comparison with trans/nonbinary. Just because some guy says they were born feeling like a woman, and that they never "felt right" as a man, doesn't mean they aren't a man. Gender dysphoria is a strange mental health disease that's being swept under the rug by "social heroes" and politicians who just want a cause to fight for (and votes), you know, instead of actual causes in need of heroes, like gay people and their rights and treatment. Or hell, Feminists are all about "fighting for eachother", but are always quiet when it's concerning areas of the world where women actually are unequal (Middle East for example), instead of the bullshit feminist crap about America (like the pay gap), which is faulty, incorrect, and based on assumptions that have been disproven by people far smarter than me.

I see the comparison you're trying to make...but don't. How they "feel" doesn't change what they are. Neither does having a "corrective surgery". I wouldn't have a problem with it either way or even care, but you see, they seem to want to force others to think and say as they do and shame those who refuse. See, thats a conflict with free speech. They already have a mental health problem, but now they want to gaslight everyone else into pretending it's natural? No, it's not. Clearly you've been convinced that it is and that's sad, but that's you. Keep it to yourself. And validating it by saying "you go girl!" doesn't fix their problem, you just enable it and they bury it deeper because the problem wasn't solved. It's like telling an alcoholic they aren't an alcoholic until even they believe they aren't, even as they head to the ABC store to buy another bottle. But again, if I can be called "bigot" or whatever ist/ism word of the day they can come up with, then they can deal with me calling them "walking delusional mental health hazards."


It's only fair. Unless free speech doesn't matter anymore?

Also Fun fact: Left-handed men live 11 years less on average than right-handed men while left-handed women live 9 years less on average than left-handed women. Just read that. Wonder if its true.

My baby is napping, so I'm going to spend some time typing to you instead of doing dishes.

You know that being gay used to be in the DSM, right?

I have a minor degree in psychology. One of the first things I learned in my abnormal psychology course is that different cultures have different disorders. What's happening is that Western society is undergoing a cultural shift.

Other cultures often celebrate people with gender identities that differ from the most common gender identities:

Amazon.com

Do your reading:

What is Gender Dysphoria?

Learn about gender dysphoria, including symptoms, risk factors, treatment options and answers to common questions.

www.psychiatry.org

Here are a few highlights if that's too much for you:
"Not all transgender or gender diverse people experience dysphoria"
Now click on the "treatment" tab.
Gender dysphoria is what happens before people gain the courage to express the gender they feel they are. Affirmation is the cure.
People wind up in a psychiatrist's office because their friends and family do not support them. It's the last place they turn because they don't feel safe talking to people they rely on for food, employment, housing, etc.

 

[Discount_Blade]

My baby is napping, so I'm going to spend some time typing to you instead of doing dishes.

You know that being gay used to be in the DSM, right?

I have a minor degree in psychology. One of the first things I learned in my abnormal psychology course is that different cultures have different disorders. What's happening is that Western society is undergoing a cultural shift.

Other cultures often celebrate people with gender identities that differ from the most common gender identities:

Amazon.com

Do your reading:

What is Gender Dysphoria?

Learn about gender dysphoria, including symptoms, risk factors, treatment options and answers to common questions.

www.psychiatry.org

Here are a few highlights if that's too much for you:
"Not all transgender or gender diverse people experience dysphoria"
Now click on the "treatment" tab.
Gender dysphoria is what happens before people gain the courage to express the gender they feel they are. Affirmation is the cure.
People wind up in a psychiatrist's office because their friends and family do not support them. It's the last place they turn because they don't feel safe talking to people they rely on for food, employment, housing, etc.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I think its still a mental health issue and that you and others are enabling it in others, but you think otherwise. Calling it a cultural shift is a bit of a cope but it doesn't matter. Agree to disagree.

 

[RepresentingCaution]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I think its still a mental health issue and that you and others are enabling it in others, but you think otherwise. Calling it a cultural shift is a bit of a cope but it doesn't matter. Agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

I do think it's strange that some parents are using gender-neutral pronouns on their babies from birth. Only time will tell if those kids express themselves with the gender that aligns to their biological sex or if they are more likely to keep the gender-neutral pronouns.

Personally, my baby has a Y chromosome and a penis, so we are referring to him as "he" unless he tells us otherwise. There's a high likelihood that he'll grow into a man. I want him to know that he can enjoy activities that are typically enjoyed by women while still being a man. For example, I grew up in a household where my mom earned most of the money, and my dad cooked and took care of me. My dad also did masculine things such as fixing my bicycles and repairing stuff around the house. He tried to teach me to fix my own bicycles several times, but I never really picked up the skill. My mom taught me how to sew and crochet. Neither of my parents has ever expressed unhappiness with their gender identities. They simply use their skills to accomplish what the family needs.

My husband is rather upset that his parents never taught him how to cook and clean. He grew up in a family of all boys. His mom always did everything for them, babied them too much. My son is still a baby, but he'll learn in due time!