Are there any fantasy stories where humans are better?

RepresentingWrath

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Now that I think about it, you can try reading novels about Space Marines. Although they are genetically modified, they are still humans. And although they are not good, they are certainly better than chaos, tyranids, or orks.
 

Jemini

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Pretty much any christianized mythology or folklore is this way. Since god created man in his image, and god is the best thing ever; anything that isn't god or man is automatically portrayed as inferior.

Since a lot of children's stories are based on those fairytales, they tend to inherit the idea. Additionally, and in the nicest interpretation possible, it's common for authors to try to get kids to recognize how amazing the things they might be taking for granted are. Like imagination, creativity or intelligence.

To me, seeing humans write about humans being the best thing ever just makes me roll my eyes.


I'd normally assume I skipped all of the web novels that do it, but maybe other writers are as tired of the clichรฉ as I am.

Well, clearly it's become a state in which the cliche is the opposite. It is the "humans are evil" narrative that is the cliche. Beings I'm literally the only person in this entire thread who was able to put forward a series that met the criteria, and even that was a case where it stretched the definition by having humanity play the role of the British Empire with all it's flaws included and the one virtue being that they also copied the abolition of slavery thing rather than them just being straight up good, there is very little evidence here to support your assertions.

In fact the relative inability of people to satisfy the OP criteria is proof in the opposite direction.

EDIT: Basically, the "humans are evil" trope is more or less an attempt to subvert a trope that doesn't even exist in the first place. Another place this can be seen is in your average Isekai story. A fairly large portion of Isekai out there try to subvert the plot of the hero being summoned to another world in order to defeat the demon king. They all try to take their own unique twist on this theme where it acknowledges the theme, but adds a "yes, but..." to that theme where they take it in their own direction.

Here's the thing. The basic story of "Hero summoned to slay the demon king" LITERALLY DID NOT EXIST until every Isekai out there in the webnovel era started making their multiple iterations on the idea. They are subverting a plot that did not exist outside of some author's imagination as they were immediately trying to supposedly subvert this thing they literally made up in their head.

It sounds tropy and even almost seems familiar. It fits a core archetype so well that, when you see the way most Isekai handle the plot, you just think to yourself "of course the basic iteration of this plot they are subverting has to have previously existed somewhere. But, the thing is, it actually doesn't. It just sounds like it should so the reader buys into the subversion narrative without even thinking.

The "humans are the best thing ever" plot that is supposedly being subverted with a "humans are evil" plot is exactly like this as well.
 
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Cipiteca396

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Jemini

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Right. All you have provided is spurrious sources on a site that can be edited by anyone. I see no actual evidence here, just an intellectual circle-jerk.

Look, proving your claim is simple. Just provide one piece of work in all of fiction that satisfies the OP's criteria.

To avoid looking like a total dick here though, I will at least actually respond to this complete mess you have presented me.

Just from the glance through I saw, it looked like most of them referenced sci-fi series. I don't find this to be a compelling argument, considering the vast overwhelming majority of hard science fiction doesn't push it to the point of alien contact, most early sci-fi is earth being attacked by a vastly more advanced alien race, and the method of defeating them almost always amounts to earth germs, and the majority of space-opera style series (Among which "Star Trek" would be an example,) humans have shared technology with some alien civilizations which explains why human technology is able to keep up with the other alien races, and the humans just happen to be the focus of the series but are not really portrayed as superior.

EDIT: BTW, I will provide pre-emptive answers to Star Trek and Star Wars here. Well, actually, I've already provided an answer to Star Trek in the paragraph above, so I don't need to do that. As for Star Wars, humans are in no way good in that series. The Emperor is human and evil, and the Rebellion is fighting the Emperor. Fighting the Emperor does not make the rebellion good, it just makes the rebellion a rebellion. Ultimately, Star Wars is a story about humans fighting humans, and a lot of those humans being total A-holes, thus it fails the criteria set forth in the OP.
 
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Cipiteca396

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Right. Well, considering the scope of the claim, simply dropping mention of a single actual piece of fiction that uses this so-called "humans are special" trope would suffice. I see you have not actually done that, thus all you have provided here is an intellectual circle-jerk in place of the very simple piece of evidence that could have been provided instead assuming it existed.

Just from the glance through I saw, it looked like most of them referenced sci-fi series. I don't find this to be a compelling argument, considering the vast overwhelming majority of hard science fiction doesn't push it to the point of alien contact, most early sci-fi is earth being attacked by a vastly more advanced alien race, and the method of defeating them almost always amounts to earth germs, and the majority of space-opera style series (Among which "Star Trek" would be an example,) humans have shared technology with some alien civilizations which explains why human technology is able to keep up with the other alien races, and the humans just happen to be the focus of the series but are not really portrayed as superior.

EDIT: By the way, I am not specifying web novels here. For the sake of answering the assertion made, the bar is open to ALL FICTION. And, your challenge is to present just one piece of fiction anywhere that answers the OP's criteria. That being, 1. Humans are morally good, and 2. Humans are the superior power in the world (or galaxy in the case of sci-fi.) Note, if it expands into sci-fi, humans being a part of a federation of multiple alien races invalidates it because it's clear the humans will have received their technology from being a part of the federation.

That's my pre-emptive answer to Star Trek. I will also go one further and pre-emptively answer Star Wars, should you have been thinking of that one. Humans are in no way good in that series. The Emperor is human and evil, and the Rebellion is fighting the Emperor. Fighting the Emperor does not make the rebellion good, it just makes the rebellion a rebellion. Ultimately, Star Wars is a story about humans fighting humans, and a lot of those humans being total A-holes, thus it fails the criteria set forth in the OP.
stargate.

But seriously, you're such an asshole. I don't care about this, and your narcissism has gotten the better of you again for what, the eighth time in nine interactions between us? Just stop talking to me.
 

Jemini

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stargate.

But seriously, you're such an asshole. I don't care about this, and your narcissism has gotten the better of you again for what, the eighth time in nine interactions between us? Just stop talking to me.
Never watched it, will have to take a look.

Also, my last response was me hand-holding you through what proper argumentation looks like. In other words, all I did was say your previous response is not evidence, please present actual evidence. I even went the extra step of pointing out where the weakness was in my previous argument for you in order to guide you to presenting proper evidence.

I do not understand how that counts as "narcisism getting the better of me." In fact, you are the one who sounded rather full of yourself. I was merely saying that it just didn't look like what you were saying was correct. If that offends you, that's incredibly narcicistic of you. I'm honestly happy any time I'm proven wrong. It gives me something to think about and look into. But, it sounds like you're the one who gets incredibly offended if anyone even dares to challenge you on something.

EDIT: By the way, all I did in my last post was point out exactly where the weakness in my previous argument was, and tell you exactly how to properly respond to it. It was not being narsisistic, it was me saying, "err... no. What you have provided isn't evidence. Providing evidence would look like this, and it should have been easy for you to respond to my claim earlier." In other words, I was spelling out to you in plain english what a proper academic would have done, something you failed to do in your previous response. I was simply asking you to debate properly instead of vomiting spurrious sources at me.

Again, if this strikes you as narcisism, then that says an aweful lot more about you than it does about me.
 
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Cipiteca396

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Never watched it, will have to take a look.

Also, responding effectively to your arguments does not qualify as "narcicism getting the better of me." It just means I like to debate and I know what cards to play to draw out proper argumentation from others. It looks more like you may be the narcicistic one here, considering some of the overly broad points you were making.

In fact, you are the one who sounded rather full of yourself. I was merely saying that it just didn't look like what you were saying was correct. If that offends you, that's incredibly narcicistic of you. I'm honestly happy any time I'm proven wrong. It gives me something to think about and look into. But, it sounds like you're the one who gets incredibly offended if anyone even dares to challenge you on something.
Wow... You're just so amazing. Bragging about how open and intellectual you are, editing your old comments to make yourself look better, replying 'no u' as seriously as possible, ignoring a clear request to stop the conversation, and all the while trying to be as insulting as you can with text. Truly, a miracle of human kind. In fact, why do I need a fictional example of humans being special when you're right here?
 

Jemini

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Wow... You're just so amazing. Bragging about how open and intellectual you are, editing your old comments to make yourself look better, replying 'no u' as seriously as possible, and all the while trying to be as insulting as you can with text. Truly, a miracle of human kind. In fact, why do I need a fictional example of humans being special when you're right here?

Well, sorry if you were just quick on the response. I stopped editing as soon as you responded, BTW. This forum places time-stamps on edits, so people can check me on that one. My last edit is a minute before your reply every time there. It's not like I edited after your response, which I specifically held back on for propriety reasons.

It's more a matter of my mind providing better ways to phrase things only after I had posted the comment. Great that you used the reply function, so that does show people what you were actually responding to. They can now compare it and make their own judgements. I didn't really change up the argument itself, only cleaned it up to be better phrased. I did not change the meaning or intent of a single point though.

If you'd like to avoid the situation in the future, simply wait 15 minutes before responding if you are going to reply to something I just posted. I admit though that this is not a reasonable thing to ask of someone and the fault for this is mostly on me. I really should do better here and spend more time on proof-reading before I post a comment.

It seems obvious you only want to find faults in me at every turn though, so I see no point in continuing this. And, yes, I will readily admit my faults at every turn. I have nothing to hide, and nothing to cover up with bluster and accusations. You were the one who went on the attack first here, and I will be the one to end it now as it's clear you want to do nothing but drag this into the mud.

EDIT: Also, I really don't see how a "You pulled the 'no you' card" accusation is any kind of argument. If someone makes a comment that is categorically wrong and is clearly nothing but projection, how else is one supposed to respond to it? There's a name for what you just did there. It's called a Kafka trap, and it's a known logic fallacy of the most depraved variety. Only someone who has no intention to argue in good faith would do what you just did.

EDIT 2: Oh, yes. For the sake of completely airing all of my faults in this past exchange here and making good on my previous statement, I will fully admit to speaking with quite a bit of acid after I saw you taking an attitude. I am the kind of person who frequently responds in kind, so perhaps it was inevitable that this would devolve as it did. That said, I will point out that I did give you a very simple out. All you actually had to do was respond reasonably, and you could have even benefited by coming out making me look like an ass-hole if you just provided actual evidence from the beginning without attaching a nasty follow-up afterward.

Something to consider for next time perhaps. And I gurantee there will be a next time. The reason for this is because I'm going to forget your name, and the next time you make a fact-based comment that I don't think looks quite right I AM going to respond. And, if your behavior pattern continues to hold true, then we are going to devolve into this mess again. That's exactly what's going to happen. I'm just laying it all out now. You can avoid it by simply not getting all haughty and just debating like a civil person, but it doesn't seem as though you have that in you.
 
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