Are 'em dashes' a put off simply because AI uses it a lot?

JordanIda

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The second essential problem with emdashes, as someone above correctly relates, is that GPT uses them in mimicry of text it trains on. Training was first on human-originated text, but we've passed the knee of that curve, and LLMs are now training on the garbage from other LLMs, and they're all dumbing each other down.

The first essential problem with emdashes is that people don't know how to use them. (GPT's use ot them merely compounds this first causative problem.) People use them for all the wrong reasons. Examples:

1. Because they look cool. (Aesthetically pleasing.)
2. Because they add variety to punctuation. (Also for sake of appearances.)
3. Because it is believed that they can "fix" run-on sentences.
4. Because it is believed that an "emdash splice" is somehow better than a comma splice.
5. Because it is thought that they are appropriate for pauses (see ellipses).
6. Because it is thought that they provide emphasis (see exclamation point).

Although Hemingway famously refused to use them, they do have utility in narrative. They do not replace other forms of punctuation. The key, if you're going to use them, is to identify a new functional purpose for them, which other punctuation does not satisfy, and then apply those augmented grammatical rules consistently.
 
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just_darkjazz

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What do you think of em dashes in a novel's text?

Personally, I find em dashes quite stylistic. It adds variety to the punctuations we already know: periods (.), commas (,), question (?) and exclamation marks (!), colons (:), semicolons (;) and the simple dash (-). A paragraph with multiple compound sentences that were punctuationed with just periods and commas are... Not as aesthetically pleasing as one with dashes.

What do you think?
Gratuitous use is certainly an eyebrow raiser for me, but using it once or twice here and there feels fine most of the time. Or at least thats what I tell myself because I like to use them from time to time and the idea that readers may think my writing is AI terrifies be B)
 

L1aei

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I am reclaiming em-dashes. Even without them, I got 92% AI generated on one chapter, and the next was 73%. Using another checker gave me 30%. If my text will be called AI either way, then I really don't care.

Yeah... AI debating if something sounds human when it can't even write as we do always makes me laugh. :blobrofl:
 

Envylope

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Yeah... AI debating if something sounds human when it can't even write as we do always makes me laugh. :blobrofl:
The funniest part is plugging my handwritten text into one of these AIs, and it says, "let us humanize this text." The absurdity of this is so crazy that I wouldn't write it in fiction. A machine telling me it will humanize the text I wrote.

Moreover, imagine you were an AI writer. You pay for an AI subscription, and you pay for another subscription to humanize your text. They have a monetary incentive to tell you things are AI written.
 

L1aei

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The funniest part is plugging my handwritten text into one of these AIs, and it says, "let us humanize this text." The absurdity of this is so crazy that I wouldn't write it in fiction. A machine telling me it will humanize the text I wrote.

Moreover, imagine you were an AI writer. You pay for an AI subscription, and you pay for another subscription to humanize your text. They have a monetary incentive to tell you things are AI written.

After thinking about that, my mind shut down. I don't know what to say about that at all. I guess I could say since it still exists, there are people paying for it; failed successfully? :sweat_smile:
 

JordanIda

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Why would you run your text through an AI checker, ever? Why would you care what an AI checker has to say about anything you wrote? You know you wrote it. Isn't that enough? Don't understand at all.

Back to the topic. Emdashes.

Proper usage? That's tricky. If you need to think that hard about a justification for them, leave them out. Many novelists do. I've said above that they should augment established grammar and style, not replace established usage. And certainly they should never be "sprinkled in." They either serve some functional purpose, or they don't.

As to what is meant by augmenting grammar, it's helpful for sake of example to point post-secondary students to fine poetry. The best poets construct their own internally consistent alternate grammars. For instance, consider the poetry of e.e. cummings. His books establish consistent alternative systems that carry through entire volumes. He turns capitalization and punctuation rules inside out and upside-down, but there is an internal consistency to his systems. Other poets that are adept at effectively changing the rules include Berryman (Dream Songs), Duncan (Passages), Corman, (Of), and Ferlinghetti (Coney Island of the Mind, Wild Dreams of a New Beginning, etc.). And so many others. Fine poetry is where the rules are made and remade. Poetry is on the bleeding edge of the language and always has been.

Anyhoo, I can't tell you how to use emdashes. I can only tell you how I use them. When I do. Which is not always. For the stuff I'm posting now, I use them. Readers don't notice. They fit, and they flow. Consistency and purpose are the keys. My rules:

Endashes within sentences, and emdashes outside of sentences. (Though on websites like this I just use emdashes, sites don't render correctly and it becomes an editing nightmare to vary them.)

Usage, General Rule: emdashes delimit interruptions to narrative flow.

Emdashes in dialogue:

Emdashes at the end of monologues, when characters interrupt each other. In the example below, the first speaker never finishes her thought, so the sentence never ends.

"Last night my house burned down, and then"--
"Oh my god, was anyone hurt?"

Endashes within a monologue, when a character interrupts herself, effectively creating an embedded aside:

"Last night my house burned down-- how the air fryer caught fire is a long story-- and then...."

These usages attempt to mimic the non-linear and disjointed way that individuals naturally talk, and also the way groups tend to interrupt each other and jump erratically from topic to topic.

Emdashes in exposition:

I also use emdashes when the narrator interrupts herself, to qualify a scene or to elucidate the thought process of a character. There are two ways I use this, and both are forms of interruption. In one, the character interrupts her own thought process:

She loved him unconditionally and would not renege on her agreement to meet him again-- though in her more sober moments she questioned her sanity-- but she did have two more days to establish some boundaries and conditions.

I try to use this sparingly. If the characters are sufficiently developed and the scenes sufficiently foregrounded, it's often unnecessary, as there are better ways to interleave two threads of thought without the jarring effect of the interruption.

Another form of expositional interruption that I sometimes employ is the use of emdashes to mark interruption of the narrative by the author herself. This I do occasionally, though it is very rare.

She loved him unconditionally-- truly, there is no accounting for taste-- despite her palpable fear for her safety in his presence.

This use of an embedded aside can be a strong dramatic effect-- an opportunity for the author to editorialize on her own work-- but it must be extremely rare, or it becomes irritating.

And that's pretty much it. That's how I'm using emdashes these days. Interruptions to narrative flow, in various forms. These forms of usage fit the material, and I haven't had any complaints.

As to whether or not and in what manner emdashes fit in your own story-- if at all-- only you can decide. Purpose and consistency. Or not. :)
 
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Envylope

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Why would you run your text through an AI checker, ever? Why would you care what an AI checker has to say about anything you wrote? You know you wrote it. Isn't that enough? Don't understand at all.
For entertainment purposes and proving a point? They already have a huge library of human text, so my thousand word chapter is not adding anything.
 

rileykifer

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I've only ever used them for interruption. (Even so, I've been using a regular dash cuz looking for an em dash online to copy and paste isn't worth the effort when people can easily figure out what I'm doing with a regular dash.) I didn't even know there was another way to use them until all the AI allegations over them exploded. I don't assume an em dash every now and then means it was AI written, but I do get suspicious if it's all over a page.
 

Kalsarinn

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I dont use em dash because idk how, it doesn't exist in my keyboard so i either use (-) or (,)
 

Daitengu

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Tbh, I thought em dash was just a JP thing. I never really noticed a diff between em and en dashed.
 

JHarp

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What do you think of em dashes in a novel's text?

Personally, I find em dashes quite stylistic. It adds variety to the punctuations we already know: periods (.), commas (,), question (?) and exclamation marks (!), colons (:), semicolons (;) and the simple dash (-). A paragraph with multiple compound sentences that were punctuationed with just periods and commas are... Not as aesthetically pleasing as one with dashes.

What do you think?

As someone who is extremely vocal about the history of em dashes, primarily being a university english-focused writing punctuation or otherwise grammar school origin tool for formatting.
Where yes, they are an artefact of typesetting back in history where they were 'an M' amount of spacing for flexible pause and break marker usage.

There is no prior widespread implementation in casual and fantasy writing for what was originally a typographic and incidentally, academic punctuation symbol. Only now have we seen a shift into some commercial writing, and most of that was professional magazines, not webnovels. The very people who would have been expected to participate in university-level study of english writing.

Even for the people who found uses for it, it only recently applies in the subsequent contexts that it has been used in for more generalised commercial writing, it is not naturally on most keyboard which has always been an additional reason it seems artificial.

Any excuse, discussion or argument about punctuation, I could be stating for the Interrobang ‽, I could be stating for the Percontation point ⸮.
We could be talking about the Asterism ⁂, we could be talking the Paragraphos' ⸿ which would have an abundance of use in webnovel writing for very clear distinctions between speakers.

If people are complaining about variety, there are countless we could be using. If people feel one punctuation mark encompasses their whole writing style, they rely on it too much in the first place.


All in all, the original onset of the Em dash wasn't the issue. The issue came in the prevalence that came due to AI being trained on material that biased that punctuation. Large language models, people tend to forget, are PREDICTING the following text. They have been made more 'conversational' and everything, but their whole point is to try and finish sentences, that is mechanically why they mirror people.

And when that prediction software, is deciding that based on academic texts, it will include an Em dash, that immediately predisposes everyone reading, to believe there was some amount of influence by the very AI that has effectively brought 'new life' to that specific punctuation mark.

Rather than being tired of it, it invites a level of scrutiny, a level of distrust in people who use it now if their work already doesn't hit a high enough bar to be interpreted as human.
 
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